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      07-11-2012, 03:24 AM   #1
BMWCali
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F30 335i 60-0 Braking #s?

Motortrend says the 328i, with inferior brakes than the 335i, will stop in just 107 feet from 60MPH. Yet, the best numbers I can find on the 335i is 109 feet. One publication even said the 335i took 130 feet to stop from 60MPH in the dry.

Does anyone have a clue what the real number really is? If the 328i can do 107 feet, then the 335i must do better, right? And what about a 335i with the M Performance Braking System? Must be in double digits and under 99 feet by then?
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      07-11-2012, 03:42 AM   #2
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According to the specs the 335i is 133lb heavier than the 328i - maybe that accounts for it?
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      07-11-2012, 04:39 AM   #3
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Its stopping distance is heavily depending on the type of tyres.

German carmag SPORTAUTO tested a 335i Sportline: 38 metres cold and 35.5 metres warm. Which is just ok. but that's from 100kmh-0.

Tyres were Bridgestone Potenza S001 RFT 19"

ATm I cannot convert from metres to feet. But also keep in mind it was from 100kmh- zero. Not 60 mph but 62mph.

EDIT: 35.5 metres is 116.44 feet afaik. And that's a good score for a WARM brakes.

Second point is there was no fading whatsoever after a few fast laps at Hockenheim/Short. They were satisfied with the braking system. Maybe the 328 brakes are prone to more fading (after a lot of braking )than the 335i Brembos. I guess so.

FWIW

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      07-11-2012, 10:29 AM   #4
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I would say tires matter the most here, if they were testing with all season tires in warmer weather you are going to get much worse results than with summer performance tires. Just like if you are testing summer or all season tires in the winter compared to Winter tires. I know everyone is wanting M brakes in the US for the M Sport package, but I would love to see real numbers on braking with them compared to the standard brakes (same day, same tires). Unless you are tracking your car I don't think it will make any difference. If you want them colored, buy some Estoril Blue paint


as a side note:

I don't care if you have AWD, RWD, FWD, if you live in a region where it is normally under 40 degrees for 3+ months a year and snows at least once a month, GET SNOW TIRES! you will have improved handling and breaking and maybe save yourself and someone else from an accident! Even though our X3 M Sport came with all seasons (summer tires not even an option ) I still bought winter wheels/tires for it. the tires are basically free because you save yourself wear on your summer/all season tires, so its really just buying the wheels that is the extra expense and if you go somewhere like Discount tire they will change them for free each season (if you bought them there).
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      07-11-2012, 10:35 AM   #5
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I read comments about braking distances all the time but how does this effect us in real life driving? I almost never have to apply maximum brake effort. I'm sure this is important if you ever have to but if you are aware of the local driving environment, you should almost never have to brake that hard.

What impresses me about BMW brakes is how easy they are to modulate and control and the firmness of the pedal.
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      07-11-2012, 11:39 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
One publication even said the 335i took 130 feet to stop from 60MPH in the dry.
I find that hard to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
And what about a 335i with the M Performance Braking System? Must be in double digits and under 99 feet by then?
There's no way that happens. That's ZR1 Corvette/Viper ACR territory. You would need the right outdoor conditions and some more extreme tires to get close, like Michelin Pilot Super Sports.
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      07-11-2012, 11:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I read comments about braking distances all the time but how does this effect us in real life driving? I almost never have to apply maximum brake effort. I'm sure this is important if you ever have to but if you are aware of the local driving environment, you should almost never have to brake that hard.

What impresses me about BMW brakes is how easy they are to modulate and control and the firmness of the pedal.
I agree that having to apply maximum brake effort should be rare in everyday driving. However, in the few cases you do have to, a car that can slow down faster could save you from an accident or make the accident less severe.
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      07-11-2012, 11:46 AM   #8
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For what it's worth, I think in general the E90 was the same way. The 328 out braked and slalomed just slightly faster than the 335. I'm sure it's simply because of the weight. Sure would get 335 owners steaming hot on E90post when someone mentioned it. Hinting that their 335 wasn't vastly superior to the peasant-level 328 sure brought out some insecurities. And lots of entertainment for the rest if us

But as others have mentioned results will vary highly from test to test, so you'll never see "real" numbers. Tires: model, treadlife, temperature, etc.). Pavement: Just think of how highly variable each test surface can be between testing sites. Weather, car loading, fuel level (weight), etc.

I know in my E36 when I was running pure summer tires that braking was quite incredible. Noticeably less with narrower all seasons.

And again what was mentioned above, the bigger brakes will have to do more with brake fade, so expect those cars to have reduced fade on a track day. A single emergency stop on cold brakes - being light will probably be more beneficial.
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      07-11-2012, 01:03 PM   #9
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I realize conditions vary, but all the reputable publications test on a perfectly flat dry surface with new tires and warmed brakes.

I'm interested in the best numbers it can get with the perfect conditions. If it's hitting 109 feet, with the BBK and new tires seems easily possible to get it under 99 feet. The Pilot Super Sports are said to shave 4.5" feet off 60-0 stopping. And unless its totally worthless, a BBK would shave at least another 5 or 6 feet.
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      07-11-2012, 02:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
I realize conditions vary, but all the reputable publications test on a perfectly flat dry surface with new tires and warmed brakes.

I'm interested in the best numbers it can get with the perfect conditions. If it's hitting 109 feet, with the BBK and new tires seems easily possible to get it under 99 feet. The Pilot Super Sports are said to shave 4.5" feet off 60-0 stopping. And unless its totally worthless, a BBK would shave at least another 5 or 6 feet.
I still doubt it.
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      07-11-2012, 02:51 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verbs View Post
I still doubt it.
What is it you doubt? That a $2,000 braking system will reduce braking from 60MPH by only 5 feet? Seems like a very conservative estimate. And Michelin has already said the Pilot Super Sports reduce the distance by 4.5" feet. So 109 minus 4.5 minus 5 equals 99.5 feet. So 99.5' would be easy. If the M Braking System reduces braking by 10 feet, you'll be at 94.5'.
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      07-11-2012, 04:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
What is it you doubt? That a $2,000 braking system will reduce braking from 60MPH by only 5 feet? Seems like a very conservative estimate. And Michelin has already said the Pilot Super Sports reduce the distance by 4.5" feet. So 109 minus 4.5 minus 5 equals 99.5 feet. So 99.5' would be easy. If the M Braking System reduces braking by 10 feet, you'll be at 94.5'.
Is Michelin's claim of 4.5 feet on a 335i by swapping our stock tires for Michelin Super Sports or is it for a different car with different tires to begin with? If it's some blanket statement, I wouldn't expect more than a couple of feet at best. The M-performance brakes will likely help out more from preventing brake fade and brake feel, but more information needs to be known before any conclusion can be met on stopping distance, including swept area, pad type, etc.

It takes a lot of braking power to stop a 3550lb 335i in sub 100 feet ranges. Most cars with that kind of weight need 15"+ rotors and/or 6 piston calipers, etc and are running low tread Pilot Sport Cup tires to pull off that feat.



I think on Super Sports it might be a little tougher to pull it off with.

Here's a semi recent list of stock sub-100 foot braking cars.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/m...t/viewall.html
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      07-11-2012, 05:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
What is it you doubt?
Not going to happen. Sub-100 foot braking distance is a function of much more than bolting on bigger calipers. It requires a sophisticated suspension geometry and bits, optimal weight distribution, etc. The F30 simply does not have these performance credentials. It is a sporty luxury car, not a high performance vehicle.

The big brakes package for the F30 provides you with bragging rights and, hopefully, better modulation and fade resistance. If you can already lock up the brakes and invoke ABS with the stock system - which you can easily do - bigger, painted calipers will not decrease braking distance; there is no additional braking to be had.
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      07-11-2012, 05:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verbs View Post
It takes a lot of braking power to stop a 3550lb 335i in sub 100 feet ranges. Most cars with that kind of weight need 15"+ rotors and/or 6 piston calipers, etc and are running low tread Pilot Sport Cup tires to pull off that feat.
The Dodge Viper SRT10 weighs 3300lbs. and stops in 97 feet from 60MPH with 14-inch rotors and 4 piston calipers.
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      07-11-2012, 05:42 PM   #15
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Just thinking outside the box for a moment. If I have a set of normal brakes that are strong enough to lock up the wheels (at 60mph), a bigger set wouldn't do a better job of locking up the wheels. But we don't want to lock them, so we use an ABS system. When I use an ABS system, the brakes run on the edge of lockup (going in and out of it), so they create more heat and would fade more (locked up brakes don't get hotter once they are locked up). If the normal brakes can dissipate heat to the point they can still lock the wheels if the ABS told them to, bigger brakes shouldn't make a difference (for the one run). Bigger brakes might grip faster (lock up sooner) than normal brakes, but that could be adjusted by playing with the brake system boost. It would seem to me that the braking is actually dependant on the efficiency of the ABS, and most importantly the grip of the tires. I'm thinking that in a single run the bigger brakes wouldn't stop you any faster, but would only be of benefit if you were doing enough braking to make the normal ones fade (and many articles have mentioned that they don't fade during their tests). I'm sure there has to be more to it than this. What am I missing?
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      07-11-2012, 06:13 PM   #16
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You are not missing anything. You nailed it.

The only additional point is that alternate brakes may provide better/easier modulation, especially at threshold. You can also tune the stock brakes - or any brakes - with pad choice.

As a practical matter however, no one is being held back on the street with stock brakes.
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      07-11-2012, 06:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
What is it you doubt? That a $2,000 braking system will reduce braking from 60MPH by only 5 feet? Seems like a very conservative estimate. And Michelin has already said the Pilot Super Sports reduce the distance by 4.5" feet. So 109 minus 4.5 minus 5 equals 99.5 feet. So 99.5' would be easy. If the M Braking System reduces braking by 10 feet, you'll be at 94.5'.
On a modern BMW, a $2000 braking system will probably reduce braking from 60MPH by -1 feet, because the rotors are heavier.

The brakes are not the limiting factor, the tires are.

Can you engage ABS with your factory brakes? Yes? Then you need better, stickier, wider tires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali
The Dodge Viper SRT10 weighs 3300lbs. and stops in 97 feet from 60MPH with 14-inch rotors and 4 piston calipers.
Those brakes aren't the only difference between it and a BMW. It also has a V10. The V10 is the reason it stops so fast, clearly.

Last edited by rconti; 07-11-2012 at 06:19 PM. Reason: combined posts
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      07-11-2012, 06:23 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
The Dodge Viper SRT10 weighs 3300lbs. and stops in 97 feet from 60MPH with 14-inch rotors and 4 piston calipers.
The SRT-10 weighs 250lbs less. Big benefit there. It also has 14" rotors and 4 piston calipers front and rear. While rear brakes don't handle nearly the load the fronts do, the M sport brake package uses smaller 2 piston brakes on the rear.

So on the Viper you have better tires (Michelin Pilot Sport), better brakes, and a car that weighs 250lbs less.


On a side note, I look at braking like horsepower. The faster your car gets, the more horsepower it takes to make it that much faster. Same with brakes; the shorter the stopping distances get the harder it is to shave off additional feet.

Last edited by verbs; 07-11-2012 at 06:28 PM.
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      07-11-2012, 06:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
Motortrend says the 328i, with inferior brakes than the 335i, will stop in just 107 feet from 60MPH. Yet, the best numbers I can find on the 335i is 109 feet. One publication even said the 335i took 130 feet to stop from 60MPH in the dry.

Does anyone have a clue what the real number really is? If the 328i can do 107 feet, then the 335i must do better, right? And what about a 335i with the M Performance Braking System? Must be in double digits and under 99 feet by then?
Tires are one of the most (if not the most) important factor for the 60-0 figure.

Keep this in mind when comparing 60-0 distance figures. Pilot super sports on the 328i would give a substantially different result than all seasons.

ETA: I see this has been covered... but it was worth repeating.

Obviously heat transfered to the brakes, a function of weight and brake design, will be a major factor for repeated or prolonged brake usage.
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      07-11-2012, 09:03 PM   #20
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60-0mph
115ft Edmunds.com in a 328i with 18" Goodyear touring summer tires.
107ft Motor Trend, 328i with 18", don't know which tire.
107ft Motor Trend, 328i (comparo test), 18" Goodyear touring summer.
-MB C250 sport 106ft with 18" staggered Conti summer tires.
109ft Motor Trend, 335i with Conti touring summer tires, size unknown.
115ft Edmunds Inside Line, 328i, Goodyear touring summer, 18"
(comparo test) - 5.9 on 0-60.

70-0mph
164ft by C&D in a 335i with 19" Bridgestone Potenza summer perf.

Most of the 3's tested were 328i's.
What's surprising is that most of those were "sport lines" that come with summer performance tires, or AS as optional.
However, on this list, all of them have Goodyear Efficient grip tires, which are summer tires, but they are far from "performance" tires.
TireRack shows them as "Grand Touring Summer" tires, which is a few steps away from actual summer PERFORMANCE tires.
UHP all seasons will outperform these tires.
If you looks at TireRacks testing data, summer grand touring are not performance oriented, but more comfort "sporty" tires.

Still, compared to others cars that compete with the 3 series, braking from 60 should be considered excellent.
Compared to actual sports cars and their real summer performance tires,
107 to 115ft is still pretty darn good.

I wonder what type of "summer" tires will go on the Msports?
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      07-12-2012, 02:39 AM   #21
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Auto Motor und Sport tested a Vete Z06 a few months ago. As I recall a tad more than 31 or 32 metres from 100kmh-zero. Shortest stopping diststance ever tested for a road legal car they stated.

FWIW

Cheers
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      07-12-2012, 04:24 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
60-0mph
115ft Edmunds.com in a 328i with 18" Goodyear touring summer tires.
107ft Motor Trend, 328i with 18", don't know which tire.
107ft Motor Trend, 328i (comparo test), 18" Goodyear touring summer.
-MB C250 sport 106ft with 18" staggered Conti summer tires.
109ft Motor Trend, 335i with Conti touring summer tires, size unknown.
115ft Edmunds Inside Line, 328i, Goodyear touring summer, 18"
(comparo test) - 5.9 on 0-60.

70-0mph
164ft by C&D in a 335i with 19" Bridgestone Potenza summer perf.

Most of the 3's tested were 328i's.
What's surprising is that most of those were "sport lines" that come with summer performance tires, or AS as optional.
However, on this list, all of them have Goodyear Efficient grip tires, which are summer tires, but they are far from "performance" tires.
TireRack shows them as "Grand Touring Summer" tires, which is a few steps away from actual summer PERFORMANCE tires.
UHP all seasons will outperform these tires.
If you looks at TireRacks testing data, summer grand touring are not performance oriented, but more comfort "sporty" tires.

Still, compared to others cars that compete with the 3 series, braking from 60 should be considered excellent.
Compared to actual sports cars and their real summer performance tires,
107 to 115ft is still pretty darn good.

I wonder what type of "summer" tires will go on the Msports?
THANK YOU!

If the 335i gets 109 feet with "touring" tires, would be very interesting to see what it could get with ultra max summer performance Pilot Super Sport tires.
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