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BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > 2012-2019 BMW 3 and 4-Series Forums > General F30 Sedan / F32 Coupe / F36 Gran Coupe Forum > BMW wake up and build the car we want.
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      07-18-2012, 11:10 AM   #1
norMcal
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BMW wake up and build the car we want.

Although the 3 series is a fine car and continues to be the benchmark in sports sedans, it is apparent to most of us that it has grown too large. I recently parked my 335 next to a older generation 5-series and I swear my car was bigger. In reality we are all driving 5 series cars now.

It is interesting to me that BMW doesn't realize that they left a void in the wake of the 3 series getting bigger and heavier. Yes, I know there is a 1 series, but it is kind of ugly and lacks availability for the models that we want. The 1M was a good start, but with a limited production run all they created is a hysteria for a collector car. You can't find any used ones for under $60k and for that money you really should buy an M3 instead. It's not necessarily what I want (too heavy), but it is a better car for the money.

Also, the fact that a lot of purists are willing to spend $20k,$30k or in some cases even $40k for a classic E30 M3 speaks volumes.

BMW! Build a sub 3000lbs car, with ~300bhp and forget to fill all the other stupid little market segments nobody cares for.
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      07-18-2012, 11:16 AM   #2
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All I can say in BMW's defense is that they'll probably sell the new 3 Series as fast as they can make them... so they must still be doing something right for the masses.

Incidentally, having moved up from an (ugly ) E81 to an F30, I have to say the F30 isn't that much less 'chuckable' than my E81 was, despite it's lardy size
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      07-18-2012, 11:16 AM   #3
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They realize it. That's why they are going to build a 2 Series sedan.

BTW, I bailed on the E90 3 because it's backseat size/opening were too small for anyone dealilng with rear passengers or child seats. I came back for the F30 because these things were addressed.

The needs of the driving enthusiasts are not the needs of the majority of buyers.
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      07-18-2012, 11:21 AM   #4
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I sense BMW are building the cars that folks want, just a few of us enthusiasts mumbling about how they could be better.

I agree on the size issue, my original E12 5-series was much smaller than the current 3-series. Even the E39 is only just bigger than the F30.

But most customers expect each generation to be bigger inside, the "more rear legroom" criteria.

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      07-18-2012, 11:33 AM   #5
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At the end of the day BMW are in the business of selling cars and making a profit, so they make a product that will have the widest appeal. If they just catered for the minority of enthusiasts they'd go out of business. There's a huge list of defunct car companies that found this out the hard way.
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      07-18-2012, 11:34 AM   #6
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I hear what you are saying, and sympathize, but do not agree. I chose an F30 over a E91 specifically becuase it was a little larger and more comftorable without sacraficing the sporty drive.
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      07-18-2012, 11:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
The needs of the driving enthusiasts are not the needs of the majority of buyers.
THIS....
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      07-18-2012, 11:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyS View Post
At the end of the day BMW are in the business of selling cars and making a profit, so they make a product that will have the widest appeal. If they just catered for the minority of enthusiasts they'd go out of business. There's a huge list of defunct car companies that found this out the hard way.
I think some people don't realize that there are companies that cater to their needs. Perhaps they should give Porsche a try?
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      07-18-2012, 11:37 AM   #9
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Yep, the car I want would sell about seven total worldwide. Give me an E36 sized wagon with a manual, a high revving I6 with little low end torque and a real limited slip. I'd prefer cloth seats and no sunroof too.
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      07-18-2012, 11:38 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adelphi_sky View Post
I think some people don't realize that there are companies that cater to their needs. Perhaps they should give Porsche a try?
If Porsche ever builds a small, non-quasimodo sedan, I'm in.
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      07-18-2012, 11:41 AM   #11
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I understand that some like the every increasing size, but they do make a 5 series for that purpose......just saying.

I'm not suggesting they shouldn't make the 3 series the way it is, just that they should fill the void. The 1M sold like hot cakes and I don't buy the argument that BMW can't make money on a smaller segment car.

Yes, a possible 2 series, or M2 might be the solution and could be in the works. So maybe my wish will come true.
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      07-18-2012, 12:05 PM   #12
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Don't forget that the F10 is just the 7er with a shorter wheelbase. It stinks to drive, but people are buying them up. I think BMW has learned that content and comfort sells cars better than driving dynamics and sportiness. Sad, but true.
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      07-18-2012, 02:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Don't forget that the F10 is just the 7er with a shorter wheelbase.

I think BMW has learned that content and comfort sells cars better than driving dynamics and sportiness. Sad, but true.
My thinking as well, I moved from a 5 to the 3-series E91 as the E61 was a big ship, F10/11 even bigger. But the 3-series just isn't as comfortable as the 5-series cars. The F30 goes a long way to improve that status, IMO.

I know from UK reviews, many new to BMW with the E9* models were complaining of the hard ride, heavy steering and small cabin for the class. Many saying "what is all the fuss about, with BMW being 'driving' machines, awful things to make long trips in". "My first and last, if this is what they are about" type comments.

I'd say BMW are listening to the bigger market and supplying the goods.

When I visit my BMW dealer and join the customers in the waiting room, it is clear where the money is, it is from folks who don't want hard rides and heavy steering, even cramped rear seating. Sporty to some, but off putting to many with money.

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      07-18-2012, 02:34 PM   #14
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Interesting point, that as many folks downsize from the 5er to a 3er, the older 3's would have left them wanting, while the F30 does indeed fill that role very well. It still seems the market for a sporty, semi-rough, semi-crude 1er sedan would be ripe though. One huge caveat though, in case the powers that be are listening, if it's FWD, you might as well forget about it now.
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      07-18-2012, 03:12 PM   #15
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This is the car I want..

That is all..
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      07-18-2012, 03:12 PM   #16
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The new 3 is the old 5 and the new 5 is the old 7. Thats why BMW will introduce a 1 series sedan soon.
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      07-18-2012, 04:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
If Porsche ever builds a small, non-quasimodo sedan, I'm in.
+1
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      07-18-2012, 10:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Interesting point, that as many folks downsize from the 5er to a 3er, the older 3's would have left them wanting, while the F30 does indeed fill that role very well. It still seems the market for a sporty, semi-rough, semi-crude 1er sedan would be ripe though. One huge caveat though, in case the powers that be are listening, if it's FWD, you might as well forget about it now.
Exactly! The thing to add is this. While BMW did plug in a 1 series, after the 3 series had grown for 4 or 5 generations, they mostly did so to attract people that couldn't afford the 3 series anymore and not to fill the void of the small sports sedan....... except when they briefly made the 1M just recently.

I think the difference back when the 2002 and the first two 3 series were introduced, was that they were first and foremost performance oriented, where as now the 3 series is more luxury oriented and the 1 series is neither. I think that is were BMW has fallen short.

Again, not saying that there is anything wrong with the evolution of the 3 series, I have owned plenty of them. BMW had to follow the market and the competition and keep making them larger. And for those that want the extra room it is nice that they did so. The 3 series is now so large however,that the time has come to make a smaller performance oriented model again. 3 different size sedans (4 if you call the Grand Coupe one) ought to be adequate to please the masses.

If there is room for a 5 series GT, or a 6 series Grand Coupe, then there's sure as $hit room for a M2 or something of that nature. I bet there is a bigger market for such a car than both of those others combined.
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      07-18-2012, 10:43 PM   #19
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For you people that support BMW increasing the size every year, where do you draw the line? Just curious. When the car is the size of a Hummer, do you stop and say to yourself maybe now the car is too big?
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      07-18-2012, 11:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyO View Post
For you people that support BMW increasing the size every year, where do you draw the line? Just curious. When the car is the size of a Hummer, do you stop and say to yourself maybe now the car is too big?
I think BMW realizes they have more customers who want to have a usable back seat and room in the trunk for golf clubs than customers who want to buy something more like a Porsche. The 3 series is their mass seller so obviously they are going to try to capture a wide audience. If you look at their trim lines, etc. their design decisions seem to be geared to broadening their base. Doesn't mean everyone will be happy, but it doesn't really matter either as long as their sales continue to grow.
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      07-18-2012, 11:32 PM   #21
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What you guys are all forgetting is that part of the problem is us, not BMW. First off, consumer tastes have been gravitating towards more power, better technology, and bigger wheels. The extra technology and wheels take up space and add weight. With the extra power, you're talking more cooling requirements, beefier drivetrains , bigger engine packaging/ducting, bigger brakes to haul the heavier more powerful cars down.....all this stuff adds weight/size.

Then you've got the added safety requirements by the government, which you guessed it, add more weight and take up space.


I personally love the 3 series size now, as my old E92 335i was too small with a little one and for taking clients around, so I sold it for an E60 M5. Now that the F30 is bigger, I'm going back to the 335i.

I don't mind the physical size of the 3 series, it's the weight that pisses me off more than anything. As time goes on and light weight technologies like carbon fiber get cheaper, I think we'll find that BMW can really do us justice by lowering car weights.

BMW dropped the ball on the 5 series by not switching to an aluminum frame. The 5 series is a pig. Mercedes is shedding weight on their cars like the SL, BMW needs to follow suit with weight reduction.

I think what most people forget, and need to be thankful for, is that the new F30 is actually lighter than the E90. All the other BMW lines gained weight recently.
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      07-19-2012, 12:09 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batislav View Post
I think BMW realizes they have more customers who want to have a usable back seat and room in the trunk for golf clubs than customers who want to buy something more like a Porsche. The 3 series is their mass seller so obviously they are going to try to capture a wide audience. If you look at their trim lines, etc. their design decisions seem to be geared to broadening their base. Doesn't mean everyone will be happy, but it doesn't really matter either as long as their sales continue to grow.
That's fine if BMW wants to sell out and abandon its past values. But at some point BMW has to realize that its engineering decisions are not being synchronized with its marketing decisions. "Ultimate Driving Machine" and "big fat bloated heavy vehicle" are very opposing design elements. I hope it's slogan doesn't go the way of Cadilac's "Standard to the world" where eventually the only people who believed that were Cadilac employees/customers. To everyone else it became a joke.
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