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      07-19-2012, 12:16 AM   #23
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That's fine if BMW wants to sell out and abandon its past values. But at some point BMW has to realize that its engineering decisions are not being synchronized with its marketing decisions. "Ultimate Driving Machine" and "big fat bloated heavy vehicle" are very opposing design elements. I hope it's slogan doesn't go the way of Cadilac's "Standard to the world" where eventually the only people who believed that were Cadilac employees/customers. To everyone else it became a joke.
Times and people change, and company strategies have to follow or they'll be out of business.
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      07-19-2012, 12:31 AM   #24
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That's fine if BMW wants to sell out and abandon its past values. But at some point BMW has to realize that its engineering decisions are not being synchronized with its marketing decisions. "Ultimate Driving Machine" and "big fat bloated heavy vehicle" are very opposing design elements. I hope it's slogan doesn't go the way of Cadilac's "Standard to the world" where eventually the only people who believed that were Cadilac employees/customers. To everyone else it became a joke.
I think that's a very uncharitable way of looking at their design philosophy. Slogans are fun for salesmen and commercials but aren't the substance of design. BMW maintains a commitment to many attributes that go along with being a high quality drivers car. They are dedicated to RWD, they strive for 50-50 balance, they offer performance and handling that is on par or better than their competitors in most segments, they offer adaptive suspensions, minimize body roll, etc. The increased size and weight of vehicles is definitely due to other goals (safety, consumer expectations of options, space expectations).

Lighter is always better and the F30 is lighter than the E90. The size of the car is 3 inches less than an A4 and 1.5 inches more than a C-class--not exactly big, fat or bloated.

The increased size and weight of vehicles over the years is definitely due to other goals (safety, consumer expectations of options and legroom). Consumers are getting bigger (heavier) too.

Not worth waiting for the good old days to come back.
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      07-19-2012, 01:05 AM   #25
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I don't mind the physical size of the 3 series, it's the weight that pisses me off more than anything.
Amen to that. And yes, hopefully they continue making them lighter as carbon fiber technology improves.
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      07-19-2012, 06:14 AM   #26
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The needs of the driving enthusiasts are not the needs of the majority of buyers.
Amen.

The OP is asking BMW to build a Volkswagen. So why not just go buy the f---ing Volkswagen and stop whining about some 'performance enthusiast' myth that ceased to exist in 1997?

For $50,000 he can mod one hell of a lightweight and compact VW with an engine wild enough to weave in and out of traffic and break 100 MPH between stop signs in 15 MPH school zones, the kind of selfish 'enthisiast' driving that gets the high school kids he'll be hanging with hurt. Maybe he'll text while driving too, that'll be fun.

BJ
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      07-19-2012, 07:27 AM   #27
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Amen.

The OP is asking BMW to build a Volkswagen. So why not just go buy the f---ing Volkswagen and stop whining about some 'performance enthusiast' myth that ceased to exist in 1997?

For $50,000 he can mod one hell of a lightweight and compact VW with an engine wild enough to weave in and out of traffic and break 100 MPH between stop signs in 15 MPH school zones, the kind of selfish 'enthisiast' driving that gets the high school kids he'll be hanging with hurt. Maybe he'll text while driving too, that'll be fun.

BJ
THIS. You gave me tingles

I'm tired of the whining in the forum.
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      07-19-2012, 08:25 AM   #28
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Amen.

The OP is asking BMW to build a Volkswagen. So why not just go buy the f---ing Volkswagen and stop whining about some 'performance enthusiast' myth that ceased to exist in 1997?

For $50,000 he can mod one hell of a lightweight and compact VW with an engine wild enough to weave in and out of traffic and break 100 MPH between stop signs in 15 MPH school zones, the kind of selfish 'enthisiast' driving that gets the high school kids he'll be hanging with hurt. Maybe he'll text while driving too, that'll be fun.

BJ
No I'm not asking them to build a VW. I'm asking for another car like the 1M, one that doesn't get marked up by speculators. because there are only 840 available. I don't think it is asking too much for them to build a car based on what put them on the map in the fiirst place. People like you have no clue what BMW was all about. A Volkswagen is FWD for starters, and they won't get the steering and certain other things right, like BMW does. I am not a whiner, I'm a loyal customer who has had seven new 3 series over the last 20 years. The people that love the current 3 series soooooo much, most likely have never driven the earlier models, so they don't know what they are missing. The E30 M3 is widely regarded as one of the best cars ever. I'm sure all those people that love that car didn't realize that they could have saved them self a lot of money and just gone out and bought a GTI and modified the crap out of it
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      07-19-2012, 08:41 AM   #29
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Although the 3 series is a fine car and continues to be the benchmark in sports sedans, it is apparent to most of us that it has grown too large. I recently parked my 335 next to a older generation 5-series and I swear my car was bigger. In reality we are all driving 5 series cars now.

It is interesting to me that BMW doesn't realize that they left a void in the wake of the 3 series getting bigger and heavier. Yes, I know there is a 1 series, but it is kind of ugly and lacks availability for the models that we want. The 1M was a good start, but with a limited production run all they created is a hysteria for a collector car. You can't find any used ones for under $60k and for that money you really should buy an M3 instead. It's not necessarily what I want (too heavy), but it is a better car for the money.

Also, the fact that a lot of purists are willing to spend $20k,$30k or in some cases even $40k for a classic E30 M3 speaks volumes.

BMW! Build a sub 3000lbs car, with ~300bhp and forget to fill all the other stupid little market segments nobody cares for.

Sorry but thats not what most people want. In fact thats the vast minority and BMW would lose a lot of money catering to your wishes.

I want a fun, sporty, efficient, German engineered car that I can take up a twisty mountain also comfortably load my family into. The 3-series has evolved into this type of car for me, and the F30 is the first BMW I've considered owning because of it.
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      07-19-2012, 09:00 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Sauber F1 View Post
Exactly! The thing to add is this. While BMW did plug in a 1 series, after the 3 series had grown for 4 or 5 generations, they mostly did so to attract people that couldn't afford the 3 series anymore and not to fill the void of the small sports sedan....... except when they briefly made the 1M just recently.
Not always true, we went to buy an E92, but my wife didn't like the large size or the styling (neither do I) and we half heartedly looked at the E90, but didn't really want a sedan at the time. The 135i was a great fit for our needs, smaller, lighter and sportier than the 335i and while cheaper, still not a play for a market that BMW didn't have a pretty firm grasp on at the time.
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      07-19-2012, 09:09 AM   #31
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No I'm not asking them to build a VW. I'm asking for another car like the 1M, one that doesn't get marked up by speculators. because there are only 840 available. I don't think it is asking too much for them to build a car based on what put them on the map in the fiirst place.
But BMW do build the E82 1-series cars. Even now with the F20 available we still have 24 model variants of the 1-series E82 coupe on the UK configurator. From the humble 118d, to the 135i M-sport and 135i Sport Plus Edition. Do you not get the E82, other than the 1M in limited numbers?

Plenty of variety for everyone I'd have thought.

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      07-19-2012, 09:37 AM   #32
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Sorry but thats not what most people want. In fact thats the vast minority and BMW would lose a lot of money catering to your wishes.

I want a fun, sporty, efficient, German engineered car that I can take up a twisty mountain also comfortably load my family into. The 3-series has evolved into this type of car for me, and the F30 is the first BMW I've considered owning because of it.
Again, not suggesting they replace the 3 series, but rather plug in another model below it.
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      07-19-2012, 09:44 AM   #33
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Do you not get the E82, other than the 1M in limited numbers?
========

1 Series is still currently sold as the 1M the 128i and 135i coupe and convertible variants as well as the Active E in the US with the E82 body. Supposedly when they move to the 2 Series they will introduce the F20 lineup which means the 1 Series becomes the hatch and would most likely include a sedan with the possibility also existing of a 2 Series Gran Coupe. If they do make a 1 Series sedan it would be the OPs wet dream car.
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      07-19-2012, 09:44 AM   #34
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No I'm not asking them to build a VW. I'm asking for another car like the 1M, one that doesn't get marked up by speculators. because there are only 840 available. I don't think it is asking too much for them to build a car based on what put them on the map in the fiirst place. People like you have no clue what BMW was all about. A Volkswagen is FWD for starters, and they won't get the steering and certain other things right, like BMW does. I am not a whiner, I'm a loyal customer who has had seven new 3 series over the last 20 years. The people that love the current 3 series soooooo much, most likely have never driven the earlier models, so they don't know what they are missing. The E30 M3 is widely regarded as one of the best cars ever. I'm sure all those people that love that car didn't realize that they could have saved them self a lot of money and just gone out and bought a GTI and modified the crap out of it
Want to know what "BMW is all about"? Just look at the cars, just look at the drivers.

The F30 is bigger, wider, longer, softer, more plush, feature-rich, and powered by a 4 cylinder engine. It's best selling configuration will be something called the 'Luxury' line.

The 3 Series driver is an average of 47 years old, is 50% female, and 73% of them are leasing.

Get the picture? BMW sells 350,000 of these cars a year to that customer, to that demographic. We don't want harsh suspensions, tiny cabins, and noisy engines because we live in upscale communities that don't look too kindly to balding middle-managers who need to get their rocks off by driving like a maniac on local streets where our children play. There are other car companies that can satisfy the desire to act like a high school boy, Honda and VW coming to mind. Are other car companies that can help with the midlife crisis like Porsche or Chevrolet. Stop with the endless whining about what the 3 Series used to be. What it is now, today, is what the 5 Series used to be.

The 1M? What are you, 12? This 'performance enthusiast' myth has to stop, it really does. We're three generations removed from the E36. Time to grow up and move on. All of you.

BJ
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      07-19-2012, 09:49 AM   #35
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Not always true, we went to buy an E92, but my wife didn't like the large size or the styling (neither do I) and we half heartedly looked at the E90, but didn't really want a sedan at the time. The 135i was a great fit for our needs, smaller, lighter and sportier than the 335i and while cheaper, still not a play for a market that BMW didn't have a pretty firm grasp on at the time.
You make a good point. the 135i and as stated the 1M, were a good start. Neither one of them is currently available though. The 1M would have been close to perfect for me, but because I'm leasing my cars the timing was bad, as I was in the middle of a 3 year lease. The 1M was available for less than a year, IF you could have reserved one, or willing to pay $10k over sticker.
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      07-19-2012, 09:57 AM   #36
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I think the 2 Series (1 Series Sedan) should be able to address the needs of 3 series enthusiasts who feel it has grown too much. I am waiting eagerly for the smaller car - let's see how it turns up.
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      07-19-2012, 10:02 AM   #37
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Want to know what "BMW is all about"? Just look at the cars, just look at the drivers.

The F30 is bigger, wider, longer, softer, more plush, feature-rich, and powered by a 4 cylinder engine. It's best selling configuration will be something called the 'Luxury' line.

The 3 Series driver is an average of 47 years old, is 50% female, and 73% of them are leasing.

Get the picture? BMW sells 350,000 of these cars a year to that customer, to that demographic. We don't want harsh suspensions, tiny cabins, and noisy engines because we live in upscale communities that don't look too kindly to balding middle-managers who need to get their rocks off by driving like a maniac on local streets where our children play. There are other car companies that can satisfy the desire to act like a high school boy, Honda and VW coming to mind. Are other car companies that can help with the midlife crisis like Porsche or Chevrolet. Stop with the endless whining about what the 3 Series used to be. What it is now, today, is what the 5 Series used to be.

The 1M? What are you, 12? This 'performance enthusiast' myth has to stop, it really does. We're three generations removed from the E36. Time to grow up and move on. All of you.

BJ
Why would someone looking for a smaller car with a big engine seem like a 12 year old to you? And what makes you think BMW driving enthusiasts drive like crazy around kids playing in streets?

Harsh suspensions, tiny cabins and noisy engines...hmmmm. What you think is harsh is what most of us think is sporty, that's why you will see that most of us on this site buy BMWs with Sport Suspensions. By the way, 4 CYLs are noisier than Sixes, in case you didn't know....

Unless of course your post was sarcastic, and I missed the sarcasm
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      07-19-2012, 10:07 AM   #38
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Want to know what "BMW is all about"? Just look at the cars, just look at the drivers.

The F30 is bigger, wider, longer, softer, more plush, feature-rich, and powered by a 4 cylinder engine. It's best selling configuration will be something called the 'Luxury' line.

The 3 Series driver is an average of 47 years old, is 50% female, and 73% of them are leasing.

Get the picture? BMW sells 350,000 of these cars a year to that customer, to that demographic. We don't want harsh suspensions, tiny cabins, and noisy engines because we live in upscale communities that don't look too kindly to balding middle-managers who need to get their rocks off by driving like a maniac on local streets where our children play. There are other car companies that can satisfy the desire to act like a high school boy, Honda and VW coming to mind. Are other car companies that can help with the midlife crisis like Porsche or Chevrolet. Stop with the endless whining about what the 3 Series used to be. What it is now, today, is what the 5 Series used to be.

The 1M? What are you, 12? This 'performance enthusiast' myth has to stop, it really does. We're three generations removed from the E36. Time to grow up and move on. All of you.

BJ

Guess what? I'm turning 47 next month, so I fit the mold. Please spare me the midlife crisis BS and stop suggesting that I would be speeding in school zones, driving around with high school kids while texting, or that I'm 12 because I'd like a car like the 1M. You don't know me and those insults are uncalled for.

It's obvious that people like you mostly care about the image BMW represents. God forbid you drive something that's fun in your upscale neighborhood and your manager thinks you are unprofessional. Grow up, don't grow old! I lived in the Silicon Valley (Los Gatos to be exact) for 17 years, I get it!

Some of us like to still race their cars ON A TRACK from time to time, and by doing so you find out that the current 3 series has gotten porky. I don't want a Corvette or a Porsche, because I do need a back seat occasionally, that is about 5% of the times, when I have one of my kids with me. For those occasions I don't need all that leg room, I just need a adequate back seat. I'm sure I'm not the only one with that need. Most of us have another car, usually and SUV that does just fine for that, or do you take your 3 series to go skiing also?
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      07-19-2012, 10:10 AM   #39
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I think the 2 Series (1 Series Sedan) should be able to address the needs of 3 series enthusiasts who feel it has grown too much. I am waiting eagerly for the smaller car - let's see how it turns up.
=======

I could see it selling well. BMW could potentially lose some 3 Series buyers to a 1 Sedan but if you're looking to make it to sell it as a niche it's most likely that you'd gain a buyer from a competitor. Mainly its a smart move to sell this car as the size dimensions of the 3 is a big deterrent to a segment of buyers and its true that those buyers moved to the A4. A 1 Series sedan should bring that consumer back to BMW, and THAT is why it would be made.

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      07-19-2012, 10:15 AM   #40
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I think the 2 Series (1 Series Sedan) should be able to address the needs of 3 series enthusiasts who feel it has grown too much. I am waiting eagerly for the smaller car - let's see how it turns up.
=======

I could see it selling well. BMW could potentially lose some 3 Series buyers to a 1 Sedan but if you're looking to make it to sell it as a niche it's most likely that you'd gain a buyer from a competitor. Mainly its a smart move to sell this car as the size dimensions of the 3 is a big deterrent to a segment of buyers and its true that those buyers moved to the A4. A 1 Series sedan should bring that consumer back to BMW, and THAT is why it would be made.

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      07-19-2012, 10:22 AM   #41
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While BMW did plug in a 1 series, after the 3 series had grown for 4 or 5 generations, they mostly did so to attract people that couldn't afford the 3 series anymore and not to fill the void of the small sports sedan....... except when they briefly made the 1M just recently.
Sorry bud that's a negative, BMW created the 1 series to bring back the spirit of 2002 aka a more sporty car since the 3 has grown in size. If BMW wanted to swoop into a cheaper segment it's not working, the 3 still outsells the 1 series at an 11 to 1 ratio. Plus the price difference between the two is peanuts.
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      07-19-2012, 10:22 AM   #42
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Just perfect!!!
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      07-19-2012, 10:24 AM   #43
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Exclamation it's hard for some of us to grow up and mature... including myself

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Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
Want to know what "BMW is all about"? Just look at the cars, just look at the drivers.

The F30 is bigger, wider, longer, softer, more plush, feature-rich, and powered by a 4 cylinder engine. It's best selling configuration will be something called the 'Luxury' line.

The 3 Series driver is an average of 47 years old, is 50% female, and 73% of them are leasing.

Get the picture? BMW sells 350,000 of these cars a year to that customer, to that demographic. We don't want harsh suspensions, tiny cabins, and noisy engines because we live in upscale communities that don't look too kindly to balding middle-managers who need to get their rocks off by driving like a maniac on local streets where our children play. There are other car companies that can satisfy the desire to act like a high school boy, Honda and VW coming to mind. Are other car companies that can help with the midlife crisis like Porsche or Chevrolet. Stop with the endless whining about what the 3 Series used to be. What it is now, today, is what the 5 Series used to be.

The 1M? What are you, 12? This 'performance enthusiast' myth has to stop, it really does. We're three generations removed from the E36. Time to grow up and move on. All of you.

BJ
I guess a Certain Bill C. was right about how BMW and the M cars has gone another direction they originally were headin'

Wow... your text is a soul shaker... i dont know why i bought the 3 series ??
for the wrong reason it would seem, or maybe my mentality hasn't caught up yet with the reality.

sooner or later, i will have to readjust my point of view..
and it looks like i might have to do it now before my GF gets mad too.

I am way below the average owner of the 3 series, belonging to the other 50% and purchased the car instead of leasing...
I guess i am really not following the sign of the times...
It's Time to change myself, and quick !



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Originally Posted by KneeDragr View Post
Sorry but thats not what most people want. In fact thats the vast minority and BMW would lose a lot of money catering to your wishes.

I want a fun, sporty, efficient, German engineered car that I can take up a twisty mountain also comfortably load my family into. The 3-series has evolved into this type of car for me, and the F30 is the first BMW I've considered owning because of it.
Those of us 'enthusiasts' are not against of the idea of the F30, but we would like a replacement for what the E30/E36 were ...
adding that kind of lighter car to BMW's current lineup will not hurt their image.. would it ?? I understand that BMW's goal of world domination would have to include stealing customers away from Buick... but do we also have to lose customers to VW and Porsche's wanabe owners ?




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Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
Amen.

The OP is asking BMW to build a Volkswagen. So why not just go buy the f---ing Volkswagen and stop whining about some 'performance enthusiast' myth that ceased to exist in 1997?

For $50,000 he can mod one hell of a lightweight and compact VW with an engine wild enough to weave in and out of traffic and break 100 MPH between stop signs in 15 MPH school zones, the kind of selfish 'enthisiast' driving that gets the high school kids he'll be hanging with hurt. Maybe he'll text while driving too, that'll be fun.

BJ
I am standing right in the middle of that demography... steering away from that crowd and leaning toward your PTA group.



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Originally Posted by bananachipz View Post
THIS. You gave me tingles

I'm tired of the whining in the forum.
if that's where things are headed...
i wonder why BMW even bother developing the M4 anymore...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauber F1 View Post
No I'm not asking them to build a VW. I'm asking for another car like the 1M, one that doesn't get marked up by speculators. because there are only 840 available. I don't think it is asking too much for them to build a car based on what put them on the map in the fiirst place. People like you have no clue what BMW was all about. A Volkswagen is FWD for starters, and they won't get the steering and certain other things right, like BMW does. I am not a whiner, I'm a loyal customer who has had seven new 3 series over the last 20 years. The people that love the current 3 series soooooo much, most likely have never driven the earlier models, so they don't know what they are missing. The E30 M3 is widely regarded as one of the best cars ever. I'm sure all those people that love that car didn't realize that they could have saved them self a lot of money and just gone out and bought a GTI and modified the crap out of it
Having grown up and driven E30s,
I understand you and what we are requesting of BMW...

Having just purchase the F30 and experienced how it drives...
I also understand the need of the demographic BMW is aiming at in developing the F30... : homeowers and family in Irvine California...

I understand both point of view, but does having one car prevent from having the other ??

Can a company like BMW still produce the F30 and an 1M replacement ?
or does it have to be exclusive of each other ??

am not throwing anymore oil to the pan, but Just wondering...
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      07-19-2012, 10:29 AM   #44
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

Posts: 4,682
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Last time I checked I'm not 50% female.

Cheers
Robin
Robin_NL is offline   Netherlands
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