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      07-20-2012, 12:20 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
It is a lot like an E39, perhaps not an F10, but the 5er is a moving target too. I'm cool with the F30 being what it is, but really wish BMW would add something smaller and more spartan back to the line up, not all of us care about mapping every Nordstroms, HUD or 14 way power seats. Some of us just want a simple, agile, rwd sedan, something like an E36 M3 sedan, just modernized.
I understand what you want but unless there's a big enough market for a basic, smaller 3 series type vehicle and I doubt there is, BMW is not going to do this. BMW is a luxury brand and they don't do spartan cars. The market doesn't want a RWD $30K car without features. You are better off with an E46 M3 or 330i.

By the way you can get a fairly basic F30 with manual seats, no nav, no cameras etc. My E90 has leather, manual seats, MT no nav, no auto folding mirrors, no sunroof, etc. It drives great, is relatively light (under 3400 pounds) and was cheap for a 3 series.
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      07-20-2012, 12:21 PM   #90
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Okay, here's what I want, a rwd sedan with a manual that's under 3,200 pounds and has at least two airbags and ABS. Whatcha got, smarty pants?

Off the top of my head, the only thing that might even come close is the first IS250. Not exactly a lot of choices, and I'm still not even convinced that actually fits my rather simple parameter.
I want to say G37, but it's gotta be over 3200lbs by now. I imagine it's closer to 3600, huh? Hopefully they bring a 1er 5 door hatch or 4 door sedan, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Also I am not in love with the front end of the 1er.

I guess I can't see the reason to overpay for a new car that doesn't fit your needs. Seems silly to reward the carmakers for not making something you want, when you could pay half the price for something you like. E46 ZHP would be my choice, but E90 335 would also be nice.

Also, there was no 1992 M3 in the US.
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      07-20-2012, 12:49 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
BMW is a luxury brand and they don't do spartan cars.
Oh, yes, they do. Lots of them. Just not in U.S.

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The market doesn't want a RWD $30K car without features.
Actually, the market does want those. Lots of them. Just not in U.S.




And with that, I think it is safe to say that the main problem "enthusiasts" might have is NOT with BMW itself, but with another entity which we should call ... oh I don't know ... just as an example, say, BMWNA.

I would personally murder for E80 123d, but you will never see one here.

I wouldn't mind owning, as a DD, F30 320d. However, it must have MT. Which, by the latest reports, we are NOT going to get.

And so on ...

By the way, BJ ... you will only have gazillion choices in ANY price range if what you want is mediocre, not exceptional or excellent. Remember, a lot of choices means wanting what masses want and what masses want cannot, by definition, be exceptional or excellent. Only mediocre. QED, I rest my case
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      07-20-2012, 01:49 PM   #92
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Okay, here's what I want, a rwd sedan with a manual that's under 3,200 pounds and has at least two airbags and ABS. Whatcha got, smarty pants?
Touche!
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      07-20-2012, 01:55 PM   #93
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For those that keep suggesting that we buy a used e36 and spend $25k on it and make it the car we want, you are missing the point. Sure that works in the sense of the getting the desired performance, but you will lack warranty, resale value, reliability, the option to lease AND IT'S NOT A NEW CAR! I'm just not crazy about having rattles and creaks in my car, which a 10-15 year old car will have for sure, even if I change out everything under the sun.
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      07-20-2012, 02:04 PM   #94
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Actually, the market does want those. Lots of them. Just not in U.S.
Not true at all.

My CA said that with the E90 328i, his dealership only ordered the stripper model that matched the $399/36 months lease offer. Premium package and Sirius only. Price right under $40k.

They flew right out the door to the 20-something professional and/or the suburban soccer mom buying a badge and nothing else.
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      07-20-2012, 02:40 PM   #95
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Oh, yes, they do. Lots of them. Just not in U.S.



Actually, the market does want those. Lots of them. Just not in U.S.




And with that, I think it is safe to say that the main problem "enthusiasts" might have is NOT with BMW itself, but with another entity which we should call ... oh I don't know ... just as an example, say, BMWNA.

I would personally murder for E80 123d, but you will never see one here.

I wouldn't mind owning, as a DD, F30 320d. However, it must have MT. Which, by the latest reports, we are NOT going to get.
Then let me amend my remarks to say that the BMW market in the US does not want a stripped down 3 series type car in large enough quantities to make it worthwhile to certify and import.
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      07-20-2012, 02:45 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
Not true at all.

My CA said that with the E90 328i, his dealership only ordered the stripper model that matched the $399/36 months lease offer. Premium package and Sirius only. Price right under $40k.

They flew right out the door to the 20-something professional and/or the suburban soccer mom buying a badge and nothing else.
I think the difference is the enthusiasts want something sportier, smaller and lighter than a stripped E90. They want a return to the size of an E46 or even better E36.
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      07-20-2012, 02:45 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
Not true at all.

My CA said that with the E90 328i, his dealership only ordered the stripper model that matched the $399/36 months lease offer. Premium package and Sirius only. Price right under $40k.

They flew right out the door to the 20-something professional and/or the suburban soccer mom buying a badge and nothing else.
You do understand that what "stripper model" means in US has completely different meaning elsewhere, right?

Think 318d with cloth seats, manual seats adjustments, MT, manual AC, base radio ... etc.

One more thing ... I never said U.S. market would not consider buying those, I only said that BMWNA doesn't think U.S. market would consider buying those. Big difference. Our choices are not dictated by BMW, they are dictated by BMWNA.
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      07-20-2012, 02:49 PM   #98
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Then let me amend my remarks to say that the BMW market in the US does not want a stripped down 3 series type car in large enough quantities to make it worthwhile to certify and import.
Do you think that's the case, or would such a car just undercut the MINI market? I suppose Audi will test this market first with the A3 sedan. VW manages to sell Passats and CC's priced higher than the existing A3 and some A4 models, so I don't think they're as concerned with inter-brand competition as BMW NA appears to be.

Just in case any yahoos at BMW NA are paying attention, if any part of your solution to this smaller market involves fwd, just jump off the highest part of your building now. It's not the price of the F30 that I disagree with, it's the size and lack of actual sportiness. If BMW only wants to market an F2x sedan as a more expensive M Sport or bonafide M product in limited numbers, I'm fine with that.
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      07-20-2012, 02:51 PM   #99
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You might also consider the brand image that BMW NA has spent years and millions cultivating in the US. The diesel convertible and the 316i with cloth seats don't fit that paradigm. NA probably doesn't care whether cars like that would sell; they would erode the image of luxo/sport and might -- horror of horrors -- steal sales away from other BMW models.
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      07-20-2012, 03:08 PM   #100
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Do you think that's the case, or would such a car just undercut the MINI market? I suppose Audi will test this market first with the A3 sedan. VW manages to sell Passats and CC's priced higher than the existing A3 and some A4 models, so I don't think they're as concerned with inter-brand competition as BMW NA appears to be.

Just in case any yahoos at BMW NA are paying attention, if any part of your solution to this smaller market involves fwd, just jump off the highest part of your building now. It's not the price of the F30 that I disagree with, it's the size and lack of actual sportiness. If BMW only wants to market an F2x sedan as a more expensive M Sport or bonafide M product in limited numbers, I'm fine with that.
I think the Mini market is significantly different from the BMW market. It appeals to a younger and probably more feminine demographic. The customization is a major selling point as well. I think many Mini buyers aren't even aware that Mini is owned by BMW. On one level though the Mini is an entry level model for BMW but then again it's FWD (except for the Countryman) and has a marginal back seat. So far BMW has resisted the FWD configuration.
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      07-20-2012, 03:12 PM   #101
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Good post, I agree with what you say.

My contention is that this is the F30 subforum and not the place to discuss how it disappoints those who aren't its intended audience and who have no intention of purchasing one.

"Wake up and build the car we want!" Yup, that's exactly what they did. The customer that the F30 is designed to please is quite satisfied.

BJ
1. I don't know if BMW follows formus, but if they do so, then this is the perfect place to tell them what we don't like.


2.As for me not being the intended audience. Really? I get a new 3 series every 3 years, since 1995 and am due for a new one in 15 months, if I choose to do so.


3.Why is it such a problem for you that we are asking BMW to plug in a smaller car, below the current 3? Is it going to change you from getting a F30?


4. I keep hearing excuses that there is no market for such a car. BMW decided to make a 5GT or the X6. Did people really ask for those? I don't think so, but they still build them.
Yet you keep complaining about all the whiners on the forum asking for a smaller car. Well, case in point. You can't get tired of something if there isn't a lot of buzz about it, aka a market for it. You are contradicting yourself!
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      07-20-2012, 03:12 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
You might also consider the brand image that BMW NA has spent years and millions cultivating in the US. The diesel convertible and the 316i with cloth seats don't fit that paradigm. NA probably doesn't care whether cars like that would sell; they would erode the image of luxo/sport and might -- horror of horrors -- steal sales away from other BMW models.
Understood.

What is less understandable is

a) why would anybody in their right mind care that they are buying their $100,000 ride in the same dealership where people buy theirs with cloth seats for $30,000 or less? As a matter of fact, people in Germany buy their S Klass in the same dealership where other people buy A Klass for 1/5 of the price and they don't seem to care. No to mention they don't care about thousands and thousands of TRUCKS running around Europe proudly displaying three-pointed start on the grille.

b) how is sending customers who want cloth seats and MT to a VW dealership actually better for sales and profit?
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      07-20-2012, 04:12 PM   #103
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4. I keep hearing excuses that there is no market for such a car. BMW decided to make a 5GT or the X6. Did people really ask for those? I don't think so, but they still build them.
Yet you keep complaining about all the whiners on the forum asking for a smaller car. Well, case in point. You can't get tired of something if there isn't a lot of buzz about it, aka a market for it. You are contradicting yourself!
I agree with you, but you have to remember that BMW can make a higher profit off of those cars than they would a $30k sedan.

Also, that stuff he was saying about BMW aging the 3 series gracefully is BS. BMW is just trying to attract new buyers.
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      07-20-2012, 04:17 PM   #104
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Sauber F1 1. I don't know if BMW follows formus, but if they do so, then this is the perfect place to tell them what we don't like.

I'm sure they don't. They are the #1 automaker in this segment and clearly know what they're doing via their own data and market research. In fact, the last thing they'd do is visit a fan forum that doesn't accurately represent their target audience in the slightest.

2. As for me not being the intended audience. Really? I get a new 3 series every 3 years, since 1995 and am due for a new one in 15 months, if I choose to do so.

Yes, really. You are an anomaly. If you were the norm then the F30 would be smaller, narrower, shorter, tighter, harder, and have a bigger engine. The proof is in the car itself. It's built perfectly to suit its target audience. If you were the majority, if you were the audience, the car would be exactly as you want it. The fact that it's mostly the opposite of what you want is BMW telling you "it's not for you, Sauber."

3.Why is it such a problem for you that we are asking BMW to plug in a smaller car, below the current 3? Is it going to change you from getting a F30?

It's a problem only because there is just too much conversation that goes along these lines, just too many threads derailed by people who wish the F30 to fail, who have no interest in the car, and will never buy one. Someone starts a thread "I really like my F30 and the ride is really smooth" and then an 'enthusiast' just has to invade with the expected "I hate the F30 because blah blah 6 cylinder blah blah aspirated blah blah firm blah blah sporty blah blah smaller blah blah torque blah blah E46" and on and on.

4. I keep hearing excuses that there is no market for such a car. BMW decided to make a 5GT or the X6. Did people really ask for those? I don't think so, but they still build them. Yet you keep complaining about all the whiners on the forum asking for a smaller car. Well, case in point. You can't get tired of something if there isn't a lot of buzz about it, aka a market for it. You are contradicting yourself!

BMW is very smart and has tons of different cars and configurations, right? The fact that they don't have the configuration you're looking for is the answer to your question.

I get the concept of crowdsourcing and guerilla discussion forum marketing. This isn't Occupy Wall Street or Donate For Abused School Bus Monitors. You can get satisfaction if you get an E36 and spend $30,000 on mods. Supposedly this is what these forums are all about, what you'll get lots of cred for. Go for it. Don't look to BMW to solve your problem, a problem that only 100 other people have. BMW sells 350,000 of these cars a year. Be satisfied with a 1 Series, a 3 Sport, a 3 M-Sport, or an M3 or go find another car company. That's not me giving you advice; that's BMW telling you what to do with your request.

BJ
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      07-20-2012, 05:01 PM   #105
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It's a complete fallacy to say that the growth of <every car model ever built> in physical size means that the largest possible car is what everyone wants, and that there's no demand for a smaller car.

It's an incrementalism arms race.

When you shop for an entry-level luxury car, you say "okay, do I want an A4 or 3er or C-class, or IS/GS?" The buyer compares the cars on the various metrics (features, price, drive, size, etc), and their favorite wins. Now here's the rub: All things being equal, the buyer will typically opt for the one with slightly more space. Here we're talking about an inch of legroom here or there. The slight perception of "roominess" which may, in some cases, even come down to the interior color of the particular model they tested. And sometimes the roomiest car in a class has the biggest external dimensions, but do you really notice that a car is 1" longer when you drive it? I think not.

So there's this arms race, where each automaker is trying to make their car "largest in class" without putting it in a whole new class. Eventually every car in a given class is larger than it's predecessors in the *larger* class, and they have to bring out a new model to fill the hole left behind. It's a slippery slope/incrementalist thing, and it absolutely creates a demand for a smaller car -- after awhile. Drive an E30 and an F30 back to back, and you can absolutely tell. Of course, for the same price, anyone in their right mine would choose the F30 over the E30.

But that doesn't mean there's no market for a smaller car than the F30. There clearly is -- it's called the 1 series. (which, to be fair, is where people should be griping about the lack of a 1 series sedan, because there's no way in hell BMW is going to make the F30 smaller than the E90 while all of the competition is getting larger).
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      07-20-2012, 05:06 PM   #106
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BJ
Thank you Mr. Reithofer for your in-depth look at BMW's decision making process. I am also glad to hear that the CEO of such a large company has personally contacted every "loyal" 3-Series owner to get their opinion on the car's growth and change of character.

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      07-20-2012, 05:48 PM   #107
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In the 18 years that I've been a loyal 3-series customer, not once has BMW asked me what I want. You know how they determine what customers want? The media is one source. You get these Yahoo's at "Auto Motor und Sport" or "Car & Driver" doing comparison tests between these cars. The test report will stat that they like the BMW, but will have a comment in there that they like the extra leg room in the Audi, or the luxury of the Mercedes and on and on.
Well, then BMW makes the next model bigger (to "fix" that problem) and Audi, Mercedes and everybody else follows suit with their new models. So, over the last 30 years we had that happen a half dozen times.

Fast forward to today; you claim it is the people that want the bigger size and I'm sure there are many that like that, but there a also many that don't, but as stated, we are not asked. I'm sure you heard about the analogy of putting a frog in hot water, or just raising the temperature of the water gradually. There are many, myself included, that keep buying generation after generation, because it is only a couple of inches larger and only 150 pounds heavier from one to the next. Well, eventually it is a completely different animal. Like somebody else wrote, where do you draw the line?

So your reasoning for not wanting a smaller car plugged in below the 3 series is (in your own words) ....."there is just too much conversation that goes along these lines, just too many threads derailed by people who wish the F30 to fail, who have no interest in the car, and will never buy one." REALLY, that's the reason?

I don't know where you get the idea that we want the F30 to fail. I think they did a good job with the car. I'm not asking them to down size the 3 series by 2 generations, that would be ridiculous. All we are asking is for them to build a car that many of us want, and there is a market for it! I'm sure of it!
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      07-20-2012, 06:09 PM   #108
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Fast forward to today; you claim it is the people that want the bigger size and I'm sure there are many that like that, but there a also many that don't, but as stated, we are not asked.
In 2010 when BMW surveyed 1 series drivers about their cars, 80 percent of respondents believed they were driving a FWD car.

Less than 7 percent of new cars sold in 2011 in the US were manuals.

Obviously, BMW could be underestimating the sales potential of a car of the type several people have described, but there are enough available metrics for them to justify devoting development resources in other directions. Maybe once the Euro crisis is resolved they'll be willing to devote more RD to a smaller more performance based car.
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      07-20-2012, 06:19 PM   #109
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And how many respondents were there? Polls are not an accurate source as they can be "adjusted" to show a desired result.
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      07-20-2012, 06:21 PM   #110
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I found a link to an article with the 80 percent statistic.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...nt-wheel-drive
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