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      10-01-2012, 02:31 PM   #23
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Meanwhile in Munich.... BMW is working on a X1 with stickers.
And boy, stickers does it have!!! Haha
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      10-01-2012, 02:45 PM   #24
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This is an amusing review.
A BMW 3 series wins, NOT because of it's handling and fun to drive factors, but because of an interior design opinion.
I recall the 3 winning many times even when iDrive was considered the worst of it's kind.

My, times surely have changed.

I'm amazed at how negative he is towards the handling on backroads even with a sport line 328i that has the sport suspension.

My 335i Msport has the M adaptive suspension, and I don't know if it's really that much stiffer or better in "sport" mode as the standard sport suspension. But, I was down in southern Indiana around Bloomington last week and the handling and control were excellent with my 335i.
Yes, it could use a bit firmer spring, or thicker sways, but over all there is no way I would describe it as not having "an ease" about how it's does things.

In this review he pretty much makes the 328i sport line sound pretty bad when being driven as a sport sedan on twisty imperfect roads.
Is the adaptive suspension that much better than the standard sport suspension?

From his description the 328i sport is as lackluster as any other car compared to a 3 series, when you compare the 328i to the ATS with it's magnetic ride control.
It almost sounds as if he's not driving a sport line, but maybe a Lux or Modern with the standard suspension.
If the sport suspension garners those types of comments, then the Lux and Modern may be no better than an Accord or Camry.

But then, he picks the 328i as the winner?!
WTF? He sounds confused.
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      10-01-2012, 03:10 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
This is an amusing review.
A BMW 3 series wins, NOT because of it's handling and fun to drive factors, but because of an interior design opinion.
I recall the 3 winning many times even when iDrive was considered the worst of it's kind.

My, times surely have changed.

I'm amazed at how negative he is towards the handling on backroads even with a sport line 328i that has the sport suspension.

My 335i Msport has the M adaptive suspension, and I don't know if it's really that much stiffer or better in "sport" mode as the standard sport suspension. But, I was down in southern Indiana around Bloomington last week and the handling and control were excellent with my 335i.
Yes, it could use a bit firmer spring, or thicker sways, but over all there is no way I would describe it as not having "an ease" about how it's does things.

In this review he pretty much makes the 328i sport line sound pretty bad when being driven as a sport sedan on twisty imperfect roads.
Is the adaptive suspension that much better than the standard sport suspension?

From his description the 328i sport is as lackluster as any other car compared to a 3 series, when you compare the 328i to the ATS with it's magnetic ride control.
It almost sounds as if he's not driving a sport line, but maybe a Lux or Modern with the standard suspension.
If the sport suspension garners those types of comments, then the Lux and Modern may be no better than an Accord or Camry.

But then, he picks the 328i as the winner?!
WTF? He sounds confused.
I Agree, he does sound confused but he did make a point that yes the ATS handles better BUT the BMW is the overall better car minus the handling.

It's a sad day to see a Cadillac handles better than a BMW. Or any GM for that matter. CD picked the Camaro ZL1 over the M6 conv. and the 3er won against the ATS, to me, over being biased.

Let's hope the ///M335i and ///M3 are leaps and bounds better than the standard sport line ///M sport.
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      10-01-2012, 03:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMM_OMG View Post
Really good review. Informative, well-presented, and unlike Johnny Liebermann's comparo from Motor Trend, Gall's presentation has a clear indication of what they liked, didn't like, and why the BMW won. I haven't been in an ATS, but having sat in the CTS-V, I'd agree that Caddy/GM still don't know how to craft an interior that gives an air of quality and craftsmanship.

It seems like Caddy's drivetrain engineers are closing the gap, but have a LOT of work to do in building a car whose sum is greater than its parts. Here's to hoping they keep trying.
Other than the lack luster manual, it's not Cadillac that needs to close any gap. The driver clearly preferred all handling/driving aspects of the ATS over the 328i.

The only reason he picked the 328i is because of it's interior design, and because it's of greater quality, but because the driver/reviewer preferred the F30's design. Yet all that is personal preference really.
I like the ATS's interior design. I more prefer the F30's exterior.
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      10-01-2012, 03:36 PM   #27
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I think the ATS is a great car and it will only make the 3 series better. One of my biggest issues with it is the CUE system, as was pointed out in the review. When will the American car manufacturers realize that touch screens in a car are an awful idea? Yes, they are very cool and work very well when you are not moving. However, as soon as you begin driving, it is impossible to select anything you want without taking your eyes off of the road, and even then it is difficult. I say this from experience with another GM nav/audio/climate system. In my mind, when you combine these basic functions into a touch screen, it disqualifies the car for me. I don't care how well it drives or how fun it is, if I can't reach over and turn the a/c on without taking my eyes off the road for 5 seconds, I will not buy it. Even as a passenger, I have found the GM touch screens frustrating and difficult to use. The iDrive is reason alone to buy the BMW.
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      10-01-2012, 03:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
This is an amusing review.


My 335i Msport has the M adaptive suspension, and I don't know if it's really that much stiffer or better in "sport" mode as the standard sport suspension. But, I was down in southern Indiana around Bloomington last week and the handling and control were excellent with my 335i.
Yes, it could use a bit firmer spring, or thicker sways, but over all there is no way I would describe it as not having "an ease" about how it's does things.

In this review he pretty much makes the 328i sport line sound pretty bad when being driven as a sport sedan on twisty imperfect roads.
Is the adaptive suspension that much better than the standard sport suspension?
I was very at ease with my sport suspension in my 335i in similar conditions in southwest ohio this weekend. Enough that I was having too much fun and picked up a speeding ticket. That part of the review was also surprising to me.
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      10-01-2012, 03:47 PM   #29
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The reviewer of the ATS says "with the performance packages adjustable shock absorbers...".
But the problem is that the ATS 2.0 'Performance' variant does not come with the adjustable magnetic suspension.
On Cadillacs website, the ATS 2.0 Performance model doesn't even show the adjustable suspension as an option. It shows the 2.0 Performance model as having a "sport suspension", and the magnetic system has an "X" showing it's not even available on that model.

To get the magnetic system and "performance" suspension you have to step up to the next model the "2.0 Premium", but it costs more than the MSRP shown for the ATS tested here.
So, what gives?

Also, part of the cost when opting for the manual trans, includes the addition of a mechanical LSD.
That LSD is standard in the 2.0T Premium pkg, and you can have LSD with auto trans with that pkg.

Seems that either they are using the higher cost 2.0 Premium ATS, which includes magnetic dampers and the "performance" suspension, or the ATS used is a 2.0 Performance ATS that uses the standard non-magnetic damper sport suspension.
If it is the standard sport suspension, then the ATS chassis and no adaptive suspension is even better than even the reviewers thought.

The "FE3" option includes the magnetic dampers, but that system is not shown on Cadillacs options list.
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      10-01-2012, 03:47 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cl0ud7 View Post
The sport line comes w/RFT 245 all around, no?

If so, then ya -small
my 300C SRT8 came with 245's all around and I have 2x the power of a 328i. It does have a rear diff though, which makes a LOT of difference.
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      10-01-2012, 04:18 PM   #31
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The ATS 2.0T manual comes with LSD standard. The auto needs magnetic ride control (MRC) suspension (FE3) to get LSD.

If the test car was in fact a Performance trim, it had LSD and standard sport suspension (FE2), not MRC. The suspension can still be adjusted, softer in touring mode, stiff in sport mode. In sport mode the FE2 suspension was too stiff. But in touring mode, the suspension controlled the body just as well, only the throttle was much less aggressive.

Yes the ATS chassis was amazing, nothing like it in this segment. I drove the 3.6, exhaust was also fantastic. The engine was less refined than the 3 series for sure.

The latest Insideline tested the same two cars. The F30 328i had better 0-60 (by 0.3s) and 1/4 mile, but the ATS had better slalom speed, skid pad lateral g, braking distance, and get this, better steering.
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      10-01-2012, 05:06 PM   #32
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It will be interesting to see how BMW responds to this when the LCI comes around.
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      10-01-2012, 05:08 PM   #33
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Just drove the ATS at the Autobahn in Joliet IL at Caddy-sponsored event and I was VERY impressed. These were 3.6 with magnetic suspension and black interiors. Braking, handling and motor, in that order, were all pretty impressive despite the autobox. Call me a rube, but I was even impressed with the interior, but making it black probably helped cut down on the chaos that C&D complained about; I am sure I would hate the CUE, tho, as I still don't like ANY built-in NAV systems. I am very hopeful that Caddy can claw its way back to world class.
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      10-01-2012, 05:51 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Other than the lack luster manual, it's not Cadillac that needs to close any gap. The driver clearly preferred all handling/driving aspects of the ATS over the 328i.

The only reason he picked the 328i is because of it's interior design, and because it's of greater quality, but because the driver/reviewer preferred the F30's design. Yet all that is personal preference really.
I like the ATS's interior design. I more prefer the F30's exterior.
Whilst he did state that he preferred the Caddy's handling, he had some pretty significant commentary on the two cars' engines. The Caddy seemed to put out less than it's stated 270 and he preferred the F30's smooth and linear power delivery. Further, he was none too kind toward the operation of the Caddy's manual shifter.

It's not as simple as stating that he chose the Bimmer because of his perceived impressions of the interior quality. That was 1 data point amongst other items.
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      10-01-2012, 06:37 PM   #35
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Is it just me or did the 328 remind you of a late model mitsubishi lancer? The way that the grill and headlights flow together.



I for one love the interior, but the base model front fascia is a bit odd. Throw on a M-Sport package and all is well. I look forward to the LCI update.

The ATS is hot on their heels. With their magnetic suspension technology and vast engine package, they're only a few years away from surpassing them. I look forward to seeing how they compete!
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      10-01-2012, 08:37 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
This is an amusing review.
A BMW 3 series wins, NOT because of it's handling and fun to drive factors, but because of an interior design opinion.
I recall the 3 winning many times even when iDrive was considered the worst of it's kind.

My, times surely have changed.

I'm amazed at how negative he is towards the handling on backroads even with a sport line 328i that has the sport suspension.

My 335i Msport has the M adaptive suspension, and I don't know if it's really that much stiffer or better in "sport" mode as the standard sport suspension. But, I was down in southern Indiana around Bloomington last week and the handling and control were excellent with my 335i.
Yes, it could use a bit firmer spring, or thicker sways, but over all there is no way I would describe it as not having "an ease" about how it's does things.

In this review he pretty much makes the 328i sport line sound pretty bad when being driven as a sport sedan on twisty imperfect roads.
Is the adaptive suspension that much better than the standard sport suspension?

From his description the 328i sport is as lackluster as any other car compared to a 3 series, when you compare the 328i to the ATS with it's magnetic ride control.
It almost sounds as if he's not driving a sport line, but maybe a Lux or Modern with the standard suspension.
If the sport suspension garners those types of comments, then the Lux and Modern may be no better than an Accord or Camry.

But then, he picks the 328i as the winner?!
WTF? He sounds confused.
Perhaps there is nothing wrong with a Sport line 328i handling on backroads. It could be that the ATS with the FE3 suspension is that much better than the 328i.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gator15 View Post
I think the ATS is a great car and it will only make the 3 series better. One of my biggest issues with it is the CUE system, as was pointed out in the review. When will the American car manufacturers realize that touch screens in a car are an awful idea? Yes, they are very cool and work very well when you are not moving. However, as soon as you begin driving, it is impossible to select anything you want without taking your eyes off of the road, and even then it is difficult. I say this from experience with another GM nav/audio/climate system. In my mind, when you combine these basic functions into a touch screen, it disqualifies the car for me. I don't care how well it drives or how fun it is, if I can't reach over and turn the a/c on without taking my eyes off the road for 5 seconds, I will not buy it. Even as a passenger, I have found the GM touch screens frustrating and difficult to use. The iDrive is reason alone to buy the BMW.
Why would anyone want to mess with CUE or iDrive when driving either one of these cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
The reviewer of the ATS says "with the performance packages adjustable shock absorbers...".
But the problem is that the ATS 2.0 'Performance' variant does not come with the adjustable magnetic suspension.
On Cadillacs website, the ATS 2.0 Performance model doesn't even show the adjustable suspension as an option. It shows the 2.0 Performance model as having a "sport suspension", and the magnetic system has an "X" showing it's not even available on that model.

To get the magnetic system and "performance" suspension you have to step up to the next model the "2.0 Premium", but it costs more than the MSRP shown for the ATS tested here.
So, what gives?

Also, part of the cost when opting for the manual trans, includes the addition of a mechanical LSD.
That LSD is standard in the 2.0T Premium pkg, and you can have LSD with auto trans with that pkg.

Seems that either they are using the higher cost 2.0 Premium ATS, which includes magnetic dampers and the "performance" suspension, or the ATS used is a 2.0 Performance ATS that uses the standard non-magnetic damper sport suspension.
If it is the standard sport suspension, then the ATS chassis and no adaptive suspension is even better than even the reviewers thought.

The "FE3" option includes the magnetic dampers, but that system is not shown on Cadillacs options list.
I'm pretty sure they were testing the 2.0T Premium, but the reviewer just call it the wrong way as "with the performance package adjustable shock absorbers...."

I think Cadillac might've made a mistake in naming their Collections. The Premium should've been called "Performance" as it includes the performance options such as the performance suspension, MRC and LSD.
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      10-01-2012, 08:43 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
No, our 328i Sport Line came with 225 all around.
damn...thats smaller than i thought
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      10-01-2012, 09:00 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamsclubs View Post
The ATS 2.0T manual comes with LSD standard. The auto needs magnetic ride control (MRC) suspension (FE3) to get LSD.

If the test car was in fact a Performance trim, it had LSD and standard sport suspension (FE2), not MRC. The suspension can still be adjusted, softer in touring mode, stiff in sport mode. In sport mode the FE2 suspension was too stiff. But in touring mode, the suspension controlled the body just as well, only the throttle was much less aggressive.

Yes the ATS chassis was amazing, nothing like it in this segment. I drove the 3.6, exhaust was also fantastic. The engine was less refined than the 3 series for sure.

The latest Insideline tested the same two cars. The F30 328i had better 0-60 (by 0.3s) and 1/4 mile, but the ATS had better slalom speed, skid pad lateral g, braking distance, and get this, better steering.
In one test the reviewer said that the ATS required one more shift in the 1/4 attributing to the slower time, but in that test the trap speeds were nearly the same, showing near same HP.

But that brings up the question, did Cadillac over state the HP/torque rating on this engine? If so, then how are they going to fix it?

Interestingly, I did a search in the Chicago area for an ATS 2.0.
I searched about 5 or 6 dealers and none of them had even a single 2.0 ATS.
There are more dealers, but I was very surprised that I couldn't even find one 2.0 and Cadillac expects the 2.0 to account for I think 50% of it's sales.

I wonder if Cadillac stopped 2.0 sales and/or pulled stock, and are looking into the power to performance disparity?

Cadillac claims to have more HP and torque compared to BMW's stated numbers. BMW's numbers have been confirmed as actually being greater that what is claimed. If Caddy's numbers don't hold up, they may have a problem like Ford did with one of it's Mustang Cobra's, and Mazda's issue with the RX8 not producing the stated power.

Anyone find any ATS 2.0's in their area?
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      10-01-2012, 09:13 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMM_OMG View Post
Whilst he did state that he preferred the Caddy's handling, he had some pretty significant commentary on the two cars' engines. The Caddy seemed to put out less than it's stated 270 and he preferred the F30's smooth and linear power delivery. Further, he was none too kind toward the operation of the Caddy's manual shifter.

It's not as simple as stating that he chose the Bimmer because of his perceived impressions of the interior quality. That was 1 data point amongst other items.
I understand, but to me it sure seemed to be the biggest data point.
After all, after stating how much better the ATS was in terms of all around performance and handling, the subtle things you mention can't elevate a car to be the 'winner'. A not so great shifter and a bit coarser engine at high rpm is hardly a loser when it has better handling, better ride, better steering and feel, better braking, etc..., and the 3 has a nicer interior and better iDrive.
Remember, when iDrive first came out, nearly all the mags C&D included hated it, but they never knocked the 3 series below 1st place because of it, which was due to it's superior chassis and handling.

That's how I took it after watching it a couple of times.
I'll watch a couple more and look and listen again.
As I said, the rules seem to have changed now that the King is being greatly challenged.
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      10-01-2012, 09:16 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89 View Post
I Agree, he does sound confused but he did make a point that yes the ATS handles better BUT the BMW is the overall better car minus the handling.
Which makes all the reviews sound biased towards BMW. How many times has BMW/3-Series be the one with just the handling but subpar overall compared to Audi and Mercedes? Almost all the time. But now that BMW is on the other side where it's better overall it still wins?

If the ATS is judged similarly to how the 3-Series did to win all those comparisons, I think the ATS should win.

- iDrive was pretty crappy at first but BMW still won the comparisons.

- Audi/Mercedes arguably way better interior with OK handling. BMW has a cold feeling interior, great handling. BMW wins comparison.

Everything the media said about Audi and Mercedes when BMW were raking all those wins, BMW is now receiving those exact criticisms yet they're still first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
I understand, but to me it sure seemed to be the biggest data point.
After all, after stating how much better the ATS was in terms of all around performance and handling, the subtle things you mention can't elevate a car to be the 'winner'. A not so great shifter and a bit coarser engine at high rpm is hardly a loser when it has better handling, better ride, better steering and feel, better braking, etc..., and the 3 has a nicer interior and better iDrive.
Remember, when iDrive first came out, nearly all the mags C&D included hated it, but they never knocked the 3 series below 1st place because of it, which was due to it's superior chassis and handling.

That's how I took it after watching it a couple of times.
I'll watch a couple more and look and listen again.
As I said, the rules seem to have changed now that the King is being greatly challenged.
Beat me to it. Was thinking the exact same thing when watching, why is BMW suddenly getting better treatment?
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      10-01-2012, 09:19 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwannabimmer View Post
Perhaps there is nothing wrong with a Sport line 328i handling on backroads. It could be that the ATS with the FE3 suspension is that much better than the 328i.



Why would anyone want to mess with CUE or iDrive when driving either one of these cars?



I'm pretty sure they were testing the 2.0T Premium, but the reviewer just call it the wrong way as "with the performance package adjustable shock absorbers...."

I think Cadillac might've made a mistake in naming their Collections. The Premium should've been called "Performance" as it includes the performance options such as the performance suspension, MRC and LSD.
Clearly the ATS having a better chassis and tuning is what the reviewer is saying. Yes.

I bring up the options and model because they list the "as tested" MSRP for the ATS. If it is a "Premium" model, then the MSRP is higher.
IF that is the case, the review states the wrong information.
But as a poster pointed out, that ATS may not have, and likely doesn't have the FE3, as it's not an option no the "Performance" ATS.
Just wanting to clear up the info.

I don't think Caddy made a mistake, the review video doesn't give enough information, so we're left to guess.
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      10-01-2012, 10:07 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
It will be interesting to see how BMW responds to this when the LCI comes around.
hydraulic steering would be nice. As far as the ATS, I would love to drive one.
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      10-01-2012, 10:09 PM   #43
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Funny how Cadillac in designing the ATS used the E46 as the "dynamic benchmark" and the E90 as the dimensional/size benchmark. Even the competition believes the best "feeling" BMWs were from 1-2 generations ago. Having recently driven a new 328, the car is definitely less fun to drive vs my old E46 330i, particularly in the twistys, however the ride is smoother. Once a car gets beyond a certain size, it will lose a certain degree of "fun to drive" factor...there is simply no free lunch when it comes to driving dynamics. Think the E90 was right on the cusp of (and probably slightly over) that perfect size.
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      10-01-2012, 10:22 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhabs View Post
Funny how Cadillac in designing the ATS used the E46 as the "dynamic benchmark" and the E90 as the dimensional/size benchmark. Even the competition believes the best "feeling" BMWs were from 1-2 generations ago. Having recently driven a new 328, the car is definitely less fun to drive vs my old E46 330i, particularly in the twistys, however the ride is smoother. Once a car gets beyond a certain size, it will lose a certain degree of "fun to drive" factor...there is simply no free lunch when it comes to driving dynamics. Think the E90 was right on the cusp of (and probably slightly over) that perfect size.
I think they are using the E46 becuase most car manufactures start designing a car 5-7 years before it hits sale.
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F30 335i Msport Estoril Blue/Black leather sport auto. black grills, Performance Exhaust, HK,
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