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      10-01-2012, 11:12 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
As I said, the rules seem to have changed now that the King is being greatly challenged.
Competition is good for the breed. At times, I wonder if BMW are moving more toward the luxury side of the equation because they realize that it's becoming increasingly difficult to maintain superiority in driving dynamics.

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Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I think they are using the E46 becuase most car manufactures start designing a car 5-7 years before it hits sale.
I seem to recall reading a very early article in which they stated that the e46 served as the benchmark because so many of "us" considered it one of the finest generations of 3ers. Wish I could remember where I read that.
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      10-01-2012, 11:55 PM   #46
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congrats again to the 328i! the 3-series should go back to hydraulic power assist (steering feel) one of its dynamic driving traits!
I like this comment about the ATS 2.0....the shifter is notchy and the shifter looks ancient and was taken from circa 1995 JC whitney catalog..

Last edited by jon328i; 10-02-2012 at 12:00 AM.
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      10-02-2012, 12:01 AM   #47
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How can the Caddie be weak if the engine delivers 272hp rather than 245hp? On the contrary, I find the Caddie's main advantage is in its engine.
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      10-02-2012, 12:18 AM   #48
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How can the Caddie be weak if the engine delivers 272hp rather than 245hp? On the contrary, I find the Caddie's main advantage is in its engine.
I don't know where GM got those horsepower and torque figures from, edmunds ran a dyno test on both cars and the bimmer's power was accurate at 240hp when tested repeatedly, it's torque figures are also close at 257 foot pounds but the ATS's figures on the other hand are very inflated, the ATS's horsepower is 239 and its torque is 252 foot pounds. Cadillac's only advantage enginewise according to Edmunds is better refinement and a smoother power delivery which strangely is the exact opposite of what this review by car and driver reveals.
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      10-02-2012, 12:50 AM   #49
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      10-02-2012, 02:09 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89 View Post
Let's hope the ///M335i and ///M3 are leaps and bounds better than the standard sport line ///M sport.
BMW will take this battle against the ATS as constructive criticism. We may get to see magnetic ride suspensions on the next 328i for sure.

I'm sure BMW designers will also improve the handling on the M335i, since we all know it has the letter ///M in it. LOL!

But to top it all off, BMW will not put us down with the F80 M3. That car will be a beast for sure.
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      10-02-2012, 02:33 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by e92_m3 View Post
BMW will take this battle against the ATS as constructive criticism. We may get to see magnetic ride suspensions on the next 328i for sure.

I'm sure BMW designers will also improve the handling on the M335i, since we all know it has the letter ///M in it. LOL!

But to top it all off, BMW will not put us down with the F80 M3. That car will be a beast for sure.



Until the ATS-V comes out.
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      10-02-2012, 03:04 AM   #52
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[/b]

Until the ATS-V comes out.
That may be true since cadillac has finally beaten the 328i in handling...

We'll just wait and see. We may get to see the new M3 getting a magnetic ride suspension just to show cadillac how good BMW can be at attempting in utilizing this type of technology that's already found in other GM vehicles.
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      10-02-2012, 04:52 AM   #53
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Caddy ATS . . . finally, a decent rental car option.
This
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      10-02-2012, 09:02 AM   #54
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Clearly the ATS having a better chassis and tuning is what the reviewer is saying. Yes.

I bring up the options and model because they list the "as tested" MSRP for the ATS. If it is a "Premium" model, then the MSRP is higher.
IF that is the case, the review states the wrong information.
But as a poster pointed out, that ATS may not have, and likely doesn't have the FE3, as it's not an option no the "Performance" ATS.
Just wanting to clear up the info.

I don't think Caddy made a mistake, the review video doesn't give enough information, so we're left to guess.
I think the reviewer made the mistake. The ATS as tested price is listed as $45,910. You can have a 2.0T Premium with Cold Weather Package, Crystal Red Tintcoat and 6-speed manual for that price. Note that the Caddy didn't have sunroof in this video review.

As for the Caddy's mistake I was talking about, it was just my opinion that they have misnamed their collections to begin with.

BTW, I saw your post above that you can't find any 2.0T models at dealerships in Chicago area. That's because the 2.0T production started in September and that model will start showing up at dealerships either later this month or early November even. A limited number of 2.0T models in Premium Collection with 6-speed manuals were made available for media reviews only. Also, I expect most ATS models in Chicago area dealerships to be AWD, just like many F30s are.

And since we are on the subject, I live between 3 Cadillac dealerships (Barrington, Northbrook and Libertyville) and 4 BMW dealerships (Barrington, Northfield, Schaumburg and Lake Bluff). Libertyville and Lake Bluff are the closest to me. As soon as Caddy has the 2.0T at dealerships around me, I will go test drive one. Do you know which BMW dealership around Chicago has 328i/335i with Sport or M sport line for comparable test drive vs the ATS?
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      10-02-2012, 09:49 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by rolren View Post
How can the Caddie be weak if the engine delivers 272hp rather than 245hp? On the contrary, I find the Caddie's main advantage is in its engine.
Did you watch the video review? The say BMW underrated the N20 power and GM overrated the ATS 2.0 power. Plus the Cadillac engine runs out of power and sounds poor after 5500 rpm while the BMW pulls and sounds good to the 7000 rpm redline.

This unfortunately shows that GM is not yet ready to compete at this level. Although the BMW N20 is a 4 cylinder with that layout's inherent imbalance, it looks like it is one of the best 4 cylinder engines in the world. It loves to rev, makes nice sounds, is relatively smooth off of idle, makes great power and gets very goof fuel economy. The GM engine on the other hand seems to make good power but looks to be rough, doesn't like to rev and the fuel economy is well below that of the BMW engine. It's an average engine at best in this class.

It seems like the ATS 3.6 is the way to go and hopefully GM will find a MT for this package.
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      10-02-2012, 11:11 AM   #56
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This thread really shows how snobbish we all are as Bimmer drivers. Credit is given when it is due and in this case the ATS is a damn good car. It flat out out handles the F30 and BMW isn't probably going to give a s*** and continue making softer more "mainstream" luxury vehicles to please its score of badge whore customers. Regardless, I'll be jumping ship if this trend continues with BMW loosing sight of its core values. Mercedes has already done it and Cadillac, the Japanese, and Audi are slowly climbing the ranks.
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      10-02-2012, 11:22 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Did you watch the video review? The say BMW underrated the N20 power and GM overrated the ATS 2.0 power. Plus the Cadillac engine runs out of power and sounds poor after 5500 rpm while the BMW pulls and sounds good to the 7000 rpm redline.

This unfortunately shows that GM is not yet ready to compete at this level. Although the BMW N20 is a 4 cylinder with that layout's inherent imbalance, it looks like it is one of the best 4 cylinder engines in the world. It loves to rev, makes nice sounds, is relatively smooth off of idle, makes great power and gets very goof fuel economy. The GM engine on the other hand seems to make good power but looks to be rough, doesn't like to rev and the fuel economy is well below that of the BMW engine. It's an average engine at best in this class.

It seems like the ATS 3.6 is the way to go and hopefully GM will find a MT for this package.
This is not accurate. What the only side by side comparison (Edmunds) has shown is that the engines produce (within margin of error) the same power and that BMW has mis-stated it's power (under reported). 240-ish WHP equates to 270 at crank (SAE) give or take. Fuel economy and 0-60 in the automatic could be due to difference in (ZF) transmissions which most agree is better on the BMW.

For example, just because an LS3 or LS7 small block can make more hp and torque than the V8 in an M3 with equal or better fuel economy for hundreds of thousands of miles, with relatively low maintenance costs, and less weight, does not mean BMW is not ready to compete "at these levels".

No doubt the N20 is a great engine, but production cars of same displacement have produce 300-400 hp for going on a decade, albeit without the fuel economy that direct injection and modern transmissions convey.
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      10-02-2012, 12:50 PM   #58
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This is not accurate. What the only side by side comparison (Edmunds) has shown is that the engines produce (within margin of error) the same power and that BMW has mis-stated it's power (under reported). 240-ish WHP equates to 270 at crank (SAE) give or take. Fuel economy and 0-60 in the automatic could be due to difference in (ZF) transmissions which most agree is better on the BMW.

For example, just because an LS3 or LS7 small block can make more hp and torque than the V8 in an M3 with equal or better fuel economy for hundreds of thousands of miles, with relatively low maintenance costs, and less weight, does not mean BMW is not ready to compete "at these levels".

No doubt the N20 is a great engine, but production cars of same displacement have produce 300-400 hp for going on a decade, albeit without the fuel economy that direct injection and modern transmissions convey.
I said what I did based on the C and D reviewer who was bitingly skeptical towards GM's HP claim. And both test cars had MT's so this is moot although gearing is an issue. But then again if Cadillac did a poor job of gearing the MT and BMW a good job what does that say? The bottom line at least for me is that the BMW turbo 4 powertrain in both the C and D and MT video tests seems to be much more sophisticated than that in the ATS which is a damn shame because a car like this deserves a high end powertrain.

Last, what production car engines of 2.0L are making 300-400 HP?
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      10-02-2012, 12:53 PM   #59
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Last, what production car engines of 2.0L are making 300-400 HP?
The Evo is really all I can think of, which makes 291hp in the US, but has various versions between 336 and 400 hp from the 2.0L in the ROW.
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      10-02-2012, 01:45 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89 View Post
This thread really shows how snobbish we all are as Bimmer drivers. Credit is given when it is due and in this case the ATS is a damn good car. It flat out out handles the F30 and BMW isn't probably going to give a s*** and continue making softer more "mainstream" luxury vehicles to please its score of badge whore customers. Regardless, I'll be jumping ship if this trend continues with BMW loosing sight of its core values. Mercedes has already done it and Cadillac, the Japanese, and Audi are slowly climbing the ranks.
+1. With the first-drives and initial reviews of the ATS, I was skeptical that the ATS could be the best in class. After the head/head road tests and seeing how both of them said that the ATS is more fun and handles better than the ATS, I have no problem saying that the ATS has dethroned the 3-Series.

If you take everything the journalists say about why the 3-Series won despite not being the winner in the fun and handling department and applied that to the A4 and C-Class, they should've won not the 3-Series.

With that said, I don't see how BMW can choose to ignore the competition and not make more significant changes. ATS hit a home run and now Audi has very much improved their driving dynamics and add that along with their designs, they have much better value.
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      10-02-2012, 08:45 PM   #61
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The Evo is really all I can think of, which makes 291hp in the US, but has various versions between 336 and 400 hp from the 2.0L in the ROW.
That's the one I'm familiar with (the most being 400 hp in UK), and then there is also various JDM versions of the 2.0 EJ Boxer in the WRX which I believe made up to 330 (Spec C, RAR,etc.). The next gen boxer (FA) in the JDM Legacy with direct injection makes 295 hp /295 torque I believe and the DI WRX STI will be expected to make 320 ish.

Again, I don't own but have driven an N20 powered car, and I like the engine, but many firms have used twin scroll, direct engine, and other technologies for some time and the only technical evidence we have say the engines have the same power and torque. If the N20 is better it's probably marginal in the same way the ATS is purported to have better handling (again probably marginally).
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      10-03-2012, 01:42 PM   #62
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damn...thats smaller than i thought
Depending on if you get all season or summer tires, the grip is more than plentiful. Our car has the summer tires and considering the lighter nose compared to the E90 328i I had, it turns in much more sharply and to be honest the 255s these cars used to come with were overkill so losing unsprung weight out back by going with the smaller wheel/tire package has actually made the ar much more neutral. I would never dream of going back to a staggered setup, I even like the handling of the 328i Sport Line better than my 135i even with my KW coilovers (my car has much higher limits thanks to the stiff springs and my Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires, but it's no where near neutral and cannot be rotated like the F30 can). BMW knew what they were doing when they set up the F30.

I believe BMW has purposely made the F30s that are on the market today softer and more comfortable in order to leave room for the rumored M335i, I have no doubt that this car will be much sharper and more fun than the ATS and will bridge the gap between 335i and M3.
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      10-03-2012, 02:16 PM   #63
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Caddy deserves a lot of credit for the ATS. There are just two things I can't get over. 1) The ATS doesn't look bad at all, but the super geometric Caddy "visual language" really seems like it's lacking any personality to me. Caddy has been using this for a while, I think they are due to update their overall aesthetic. 2) Going into a Caddy dealer sucks. Our nearest Caddy dealer is in an old building, stuck between a Chevy lot and a used car lot. The BMW/Mercedes/Audi dealers around here have really invested in stepping up their dealerships to provide a great all around customer experience. I especially love BMW of Seattle, where my car came from
Excellent point. I had a Chevy Cruze for like a month (don't judge me, I got it super cheap and only bought it to flip) but the Chevy dealer is AWFUL (same dealer as Caddy). I mean holy crap you pull up wearing anything other than a t-shirt and the techs are eyeing you. I have never been to Kentucky, but I'm pretty sure that's what it feels like to be there.
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      10-03-2012, 02:19 PM   #64
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Funny how Cadillac in designing the ATS used the E46 as the "dynamic benchmark" and the E90 as the dimensional/size benchmark. Even the competition believes the best "feeling" BMWs were from 1-2 generations ago. Having recently driven a new 328, the car is definitely less fun to drive vs my old E46 330i, particularly in the twistys, however the ride is smoother. Once a car gets beyond a certain size, it will lose a certain degree of "fun to drive" factor...there is simply no free lunch when it comes to driving dynamics. Think the E90 was right on the cusp of (and probably slightly over) that perfect size.
GM - Hey BMW could you send me the details of that new 3 series that you are currently working on?

BMW - No dumb ass! I am not going to send you our next best thing! Here is our old bench mark lets see if you can catch up.
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      10-03-2012, 02:30 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89 View Post
This thread really shows how snobbish we all are as Bimmer drivers. Credit is given when it is due and in this case the ATS is a damn good car. It flat out out handles the F30 and BMW isn't probably going to give a s*** and continue making softer more "mainstream" luxury vehicles to please its score of badge whore customers. Regardless, I'll be jumping ship if this trend continues with BMW loosing sight of its core values. Mercedes has already done it and Cadillac, the Japanese, and Audi are slowly climbing the ranks.
Okay to be fair, it is barely any cheaper than a 3 series and is hideous inside and out. Who cares how it allegedly handles, I don't want a GM product...
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      10-03-2012, 03:59 PM   #66
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Nice..

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GM - Hey BMW could you send me the details of that new 3 series that you are currently working on?

BMW - No dumb ass! I am not going to send you our next best thing! Here is our old bench mark lets see if you can catch up.
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