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      10-27-2012, 09:04 AM   #67
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      10-28-2012, 05:41 AM   #68
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Manual transmissions are for children, you're grown up now, pops.

BMW's and Cadillac's are not "sport sedans". The word "sport" is just put there by savvy marketers trying to fool people like you into thinking you're driving a race car as you pull out of PetSmart hauling a 40 pound bag of kibble back to your mundane life in suburbia.

Now get off the Windows 95 computer, put on your Member's Only jacket, grab that Rush cassette, and drive your son to soccer practice in your Cadillac you badass, you.

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LOL, if you only knew how far off from reality what you wrote actually is.
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      10-28-2012, 06:00 AM   #69
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Your point is not a very good one. The bmw manual isn't perfect. But its better than the ATS(from all reports).
So this is what I find funny. Here comes Cadillac who builds a very excellent sports sedan, which from all accounts seems to have handling on par, if not better in some variations, to the 3-Series. It has the BMW fan base all in a tizzy, and all any of you can come up with as justification to not consider the ATS is the shift quality of the manual transmission.

But go read a million posts on the E90 board about major quality issues like HPFP reliability, water pump failures, failing blower motors, filing serpentine belts, peeling interior parts, interior rattles, squeaking drivers seats, a HVAC system that isn't well understood, and downright fear of owning the car past warranty, and none of these things dissuade the Boyz from ownership. BUT, oh, the ATS has a crappy shift feel, so hell, it CAN'T be considered a sports sedan and is basically the 2012 version of the Cimarron. Please.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 10-28-2012 at 06:11 AM.
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      10-28-2012, 06:13 AM   #70
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      10-28-2012, 09:49 AM   #71
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So this is what I find funny. Here comes Cadillac who builds a very excellent sports sedan, which from all accounts seems to have handling on par, if not better in some variations, to the 3-Series. It has the BMW fan base all in a tizzy, and all any of you can come up with as justification to not consider the ATS is the shift quality of the manual transmission.

But go read a million posts on the E90 board about major quality issues like HPFP reliability, water pump failures, failing blower motors, filing serpentine belts, peeling interior parts, interior rattles, squeaking drivers seats, a HVAC system that isn't well understood, and downright fear of owning the car past warranty, and none of these things dissuade the Boyz from ownership. BUT, oh, the ATS has a crappy shift feel, so hell, it CAN'T be considered a sports sedan and is basically the 2012 version of the Cimarron. Please.
What the hell are you talking about? You asked a question and i answered. The manual in the ATS is not as good as the BMW. get over it.
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      10-28-2012, 10:53 AM   #72
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What the hell are you talking about? You asked a question and i answered. The manual in the ATS is not as good as the BMW. get over it.
Cadillac seems to agree, they've stopped production on the ATS MT until they can fix their problems.
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      10-28-2012, 11:03 AM   #73
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So this is what I find funny. Here comes Cadillac who builds a very excellent sports sedan, which from all accounts seems to have handling on par, if not better in some variations, to the 3-Series. It has the BMW fan base all in a tizzy, and all any of you can come up with as justification to not consider the ATS is the shift quality of the manual transmission.

But go read a million posts on the E90 board about major quality issues like HPFP reliability, water pump failures, failing blower motors, filing serpentine belts, peeling interior parts, interior rattles, squeaking drivers seats, a HVAC system that isn't well understood, and downright fear of owning the car past warranty, and none of these things dissuade the Boyz from ownership. BUT, oh, the ATS has a crappy shift feel, so hell, it CAN'T be considered a sports sedan and is basically the 2012 version of the Cimarron. Please.
Evidently, there are plenty of qualities that people will like about the ATS. The f30 is also widely appreciated by the press (as was the e90) so clearly people will also like many of the qualities of the BMW cars. It is unsurprising that on the BMW forum, people will focus on the positives of the f30 > ATS.
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      10-28-2012, 08:12 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So this is what I find funny. Here comes Cadillac who builds a very excellent sports sedan, which from all accounts seems to have handling on par, if not better in some variations, to the 3-Series. It has the BMW fan base all in a tizzy, and all any of you can come up with as justification to not consider the ATS is the shift quality of the manual transmission.

But go read a million posts on the E90 board about major quality issues like HPFP reliability, water pump failures, failing blower motors, filing serpentine belts, peeling interior parts, interior rattles, squeaking drivers seats, a HVAC system that isn't well understood, and downright fear of owning the car past warranty, and none of these things dissuade the Boyz from ownership. BUT, oh, the ATS has a crappy shift feel, so hell, it CAN'T be considered a sports sedan and is basically the 2012 version of the Cimarron. Please.
The BMW ownerbase is not in a tizzy.

We will never drive a Cadillac product, so these endless threads that pop up every week in our forum are just annoying. You think you're the first person to come in here in the last six months and say "ooh this ATS looks like a great car I may actually buy it"? These threads all start and end the same way: no BMW owner is buying a Cadillac ATS. Go find a Buick forum to troll.

BJ
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      11-01-2012, 05:33 AM   #75
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The BMW ownerbase is not in a tizzy.

We will never drive a Cadillac product, so these endless threads that pop up every week in our forum are just annoying. You think you're the first person to come in here in the last six months and say "ooh this ATS looks like a great car I may actually buy it"? These threads all start and end the same way: no BMW owner is buying a Cadillac ATS. Go find a Buick forum to troll.

BJ
Except REZNICK. Go read his post #51. He owns both a Bimmer and a Cadillac. OMG, how could that be! Let's kick him out of the club!

Oh, I forgot, there IS only one car manufacturer in the world, BMW, all the rest are posers.
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      11-01-2012, 05:54 AM   #76
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Evidently, there are plenty of qualities that people will like about the ATS. The f30 is also widely appreciated by the press (as was the e90) so clearly people will also like many of the qualities of the BMW cars. It is unsurprising that on the BMW forum, people will focus on the positives of the f30 > ATS.
I'm fine with that. The F30 is a great car I'm sure as most 3-Series have been. It doesn't have a N/A I6 anymore, so I have no interest in it. Based on BMW's track record of unreliable gas turbos, I'll stay away from the N20.

What I can't understand is the unbridled affection for BMWs from members on this Forum. If BMWs were perfect, then sure I could understand it, but come on, if you can't see the poor reliability and subpar build quality of some BMW models, then you have your head in the proverbial sand. I've owned a 3-series since 1988; probably longer than a lot of the posters here have even been alive, so I know the cars pretty well and have gone back to the BMW trough twice for new cars.

Ninety percent of current BMW owners have no ability to appreciate the attributes of what BMW once owned the marketplace with. Now BMW has morphed into a Lexus-like luxury brand full of a bunch of badge-whores who wouldn't know a good driving car if it ran over them. Sorry, that's just the way it is. BMW has changed, you can see it in the dealership experience, the owner's manuals, and the luxury crap added to each model that takes away from the driving experience. Itís okay that BMW has changed, they are competing against other brands in the marketplace and that what it thinks it needs to do. It doesnít mean owners like me, who remember BMWs from the 70ís and 80ís, and appreciate a good driverís car need to accept it.

The ATS 2.0T with a manual transmission and sunroof option is my ideal ultimate driving machine, and what the 3-series used to be. The ATS I have in mind is about $6K less than a comparable F30 Sport Line and handles and brakes better.
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      11-01-2012, 11:29 AM   #77
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Except REZNICK. Go read his post #51. He owns both a Bimmer and a Cadillac. OMG, how could that be! Let's kick him out of the club!

Oh, I forgot, there IS only one car manufacturer in the world, BMW, all the rest are posers.


Taken moments ago in an Outlet Mall in Paramus, my first Cadillac ATS encounter.

Sitting while my wife shops, I see about 12 people stop to check it out. They are all 60+ with really bad taste in outerwear. The 3 Series Killer, indeed. Star of the Bergen Center Outlet Mall.

BJ
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      11-01-2012, 11:45 AM   #78
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I'm 60 this week and the only Cadillac you"ll ever see me riding in is when they take me to the cemetery.
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      11-01-2012, 02:46 PM   #79
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Taken moments ago in an Outlet Mall in Paramus, my first Cadillac ATS encounter.

Sitting while my wife shops, I see about 12 people stop to check it out. They are all 60+ with really bad taste in outerwear. The 3 Series Killer, indeed. Star of the Bergen Center Outlet Mall.

BJ
So this is you're first time even seeing an ATS let alone drive one?. Yet you slam it . Because there can be only 1?. What the hell is this, Highlander? You don't need a test drive because BMW is the best, no questions asked. You have your BMW visa card ready to buy new kicks and a pair of Ag's and maybe a new Roly ,cuz your taste in outerwear has to match that high dollar 328 you're rolling around in being the "elitist"( your words , not mine) you are .If that were the case you sure as hell wouldn't be rolling around in a 328.Continue to bury your head in the sand. Its easier that way. Nobody stays on top forever.The competition is closing in fast. Everyone agrees ,the only thing that lets the ATS down is the transmission. I'll agree with that, but I've actually driven it. But then again the steering IS better in the ATS. BMW screwed their first attempt up with electronic steering. But its their first year with this car and they will adjust , just like Cadillac will . I've been on this site since before the e9x came out. I rarely comment on things unless I see something that I just flat out disagree with. I don't talk about the cars I own, but I own quite a few,,all kinds. Loving driving these cars is what owning one should be about , no matter the make. Being seen rolling around town in your designer sunglasses thinking you're better than everyone else is exactly why BMW owners catch so much crap. Hell, I still get cut off on a regular basis in my 330( its an 11 yr old toy for Christ sakes).I laugh to myself because I know why I get this reaction .Sometimes growing up has nothing to do with age
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      11-01-2012, 03:06 PM   #80
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Taken moments ago in an Outlet Mall in Paramus, my first Cadillac ATS encounter.

Sitting while my wife shops, I see about 12 people stop to check it out. They are all 60+ with really bad taste in outerwear. The 3 Series Killer, indeed. Star of the Bergen Center Outlet Mall.

BJ
That ATS is a diseased dog. Should be put down ASAP.
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      11-01-2012, 05:48 PM   #81
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So this is you're first time even seeing an ATS let alone drive one?. Yet you slam it . Because there can be only 1?. What the hell is this, Highlander? You don't need a test drive because BMW is the best, no questions asked. You have your BMW visa card ready to buy new kicks and a pair of Ag's and maybe a new Roly ,cuz your taste in outerwear has to match that high dollar 328 you're rolling around in being the "elitist"( your words , not mine) you are .If that were the case you sure as hell wouldn't be rolling around in a 328.Continue to bury your head in the sand. Its easier that way. Nobody stays on top forever.The competition is closing in fast. Everyone agrees ,the only thing that lets the ATS down is the transmission. I'll agree with that, but I've actually driven it. But then again the steering IS better in the ATS. BMW screwed their first attempt up with electronic steering. But its their first year with this car and they will adjust , just like Cadillac will . I've been on this site since before the e9x came out. I rarely comment on things unless I see something that I just flat out disagree with. I don't talk about the cars I own, but I own quite a few,,all kinds. Loving driving these cars is what owning one should be about , no matter the make. Being seen rolling around town in your designer sunglasses thinking you're better than everyone else is exactly why BMW owners catch so much crap. Hell, I still get cut off on a regular basis in my 330( its an 11 yr old toy for Christ sakes).I laugh to myself because I know why I get this reaction .Sometimes growing up has nothing to do with age
Couldn't agree more with this. Well said!

BJ - if you don't like these threads, don't waste your time telling everyone you're sick of them. Just ignore them.
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      11-01-2012, 06:44 PM   #82
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Manual transmissions are for children, you're grown up now, pops.

BMW's and Cadillac's are not "sport sedans". The word "sport" is just put there by savvy marketers trying to fool people like you into thinking you're driving a race car as you pull out of PetSmart hauling a 40 pound bag of kibble back to your mundane life in suburbia.

Now get off the Windows 95 computer, put on your Member's Only jacket, grab that Rush cassette, and drive your son to soccer practice in your Cadillac you badass, you.

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I only moved to this country in '98. Can someone please post a pic of a 'Members Only' jacket??? I have no idea what it is.
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      11-01-2012, 08:42 PM   #83
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I'm fine with that. The F30 is a great car I'm sure as most 3-Series have been. It doesn't have a N/A I6 anymore, so I have no interest in it. Based on BMW's track record of unreliable gas turbos, I'll stay away from the N20.

What I can't understand is the unbridled affection for BMWs from members on this Forum. If BMWs were perfect, then sure I could understand it, but come on, if you can't see the poor reliability and subpar build quality of some BMW models, then you have your head in the proverbial sand. I've owned a 3-series since 1988; probably longer than a lot of the posters here have even been alive, so I know the cars pretty well and have gone back to the BMW trough twice for new cars.

Ninety percent of current BMW owners have no ability to appreciate the attributes of what BMW once owned the marketplace with. Now BMW has morphed into a Lexus-like luxury brand full of a bunch of badge-whores who wouldn't know a good driving car if it ran over them. Sorry, that's just the way it is. BMW has changed, you can see it in the dealership experience, the owner's manuals, and the luxury crap added to each model that takes away from the driving experience. It’s okay that BMW has changed, they are competing against other brands in the marketplace and that what it thinks it needs to do. It doesn’t mean owners like me, who remember BMWs from the 70’s and 80’s, and appreciate a good driver’s car need to accept it.

The ATS 2.0T with a manual transmission and sunroof option is my ideal ultimate driving machine, and what the 3-series used to be. The ATS I have in mind is about $6K less than a comparable F30 Sport Line and handles and brakes better.
You might want to wait on your manual ATS. It's being redone due to quality concerns:

http://wot.motortrend.com/exclusive-...ed-280959.html

As for "classic BMWs" they're not going to interest the younger demographic. After a point it just sounds like people complaining about losing the good old days. Nostalgia tends to color things in a rosier light than they deserve. Just as I have no interest in watching Citizen Kane or Casablanca to feel like I appreciate good films, I don't expect everyone to take automobile appreciation lessons before buying a car.

In the mid-nineties the 3 series was selling 50,000 in the US, the past five years it's averaged double that. Their product strategy certainly seems to make their cars attractive to more consumers. It's entirely possible that new models are just as much drivers cars as the "classic" models, just in different ways. People evaluate cars under different criteria than they did 40 years ago. Not everyone will be happy with the adaptations, but there are other options on the market for those who feel the product isn't what they want.
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      11-01-2012, 08:51 PM   #84
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I just spent half a day driving the ATS 2.0 Turbo; ATS 3.6 (both auto) then went and drove the BMW 328 (auto) and 335 (sport auto). Drove all cars on an 8 mile route that included some nice twisty roads and a 65 mph limit highway. I own a C63 AMG and used to own a 135i...so I am not really biased to any brand but, without any doubt, I can say the driving experience in the BMWs was FAR SUPERIOR to the ATS. The ATS 3.6 was actually not too bad but the ATS 2.0 turbo is truly awful. Very laggy. The best way to really compare is set aside several hours and drive them...alone...back to back to back.
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      11-01-2012, 09:10 PM   #85
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No, not angry at all. I pay no attention to off-brands like Cadillac, so if they sell some cars good for them, doesn't affect me at all. I get annoyed at the endless comparisons cluttering up the board because it's a waste of time, but it's not the end of the world.

BMW has not changed its focus to attract buyers from other brands; they responded to the needs of their existing customer base by making a car that is bigger for our growing families, more luxurious for our growing salaries, and softer for our growing maturity. Eventually, you turn 40, high school girls don't look at you any more, local streets stop being drag strips, and you grow up as you shuttle your kids to baseball practice.

BMW has built a car that millions of customers will find engaging. Cadillac has built a car for no one. Too small for it's 60 year old consumer base, too expensive for Chevy owners to step-up to, too silly a brand to be taken seriously.

The F30 will be the best selling car in BMW's history. They've definitely only have themselves to "blame" if you want to call it that.

BJ
So BMW is making a car for the person who is in their 40s right now and they don't expect anyone in their 20s who wants all that stuff they've done away with to be interested in buying their cars? What about all the guys who bought bimmers in the early 90s...shouldn't they be pissed because they're now in their 50s or 60s and BMW makes cars for guys like you, who are in their 40s?

Your post makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't matter how old you get or I get, they don't make a car for one specific demographic. And pricing has nothing to do with your salary or my salary, it has to do with what price they can maximize profit at in the current market and you must know that.

And they've stated they are trying to get more female buyers. They are adapting the character of the vehicle to sell more. It's not a hard thing to see. The f30 is the most Lexus-like entry level sedan that BMW has ever made. The other luxury brands are moving more towards sport-tined vehicle to try and mimic BMW. THerefore, the gap is closing.

And go ahead and call Cadillac an off-brand. It's priced as a luxury brand and being evaluated at almost as good as the 3er in the first iteration of the ATS. But of course, you know more than all the people who make their living in the industry, right?
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      11-01-2012, 09:18 PM   #86
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So this is you're first time even seeing an ATS let alone drive one?. Yet you slam it . Because there can be only 1?. What the hell is this, Highlander? You don't need a test drive because BMW is the best, no questions asked. You have your BMW visa card ready to buy new kicks and a pair of Ag's and maybe a new Roly ,cuz your taste in outerwear has to match that high dollar 328 you're rolling around in being the "elitist" ( your words , not mine) you are .If that were the case you sure as hell wouldn't be rolling around in a 328.Continue to bury your head in the sand. Its easier that way. Nobody stays on top forever.The competition is closing in fast. Everyone agrees ,the only thing that lets the ATS down is the transmission. I'll agree with that, but I've actually driven it. But then again the steering IS better in the ATS. BMW screwed their first attempt up with electronic steering. But its their first year with this car and they will adjust , just like Cadillac will . I've been on this site since before the e9x came out. I rarely comment on things unless I see something that I just flat out disagree with. I don't talk about the cars I own, but I own quite a few,,all kinds. Loving driving these cars is what owning one should be about , no matter the make. Being seen rolling around town in your designer sunglasses thinking you're better than everyone else is exactly why BMW owners catch so much crap. Hell, I still get cut off on a regular basis in my 330( its an 11 yr old toy for Christ sakes).I laugh to myself because I know why I get this reaction .Sometimes growing up has nothing to do with age


This is the only Cadillac any BMW owner would be caught dead in.

BJ
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      11-01-2012, 09:21 PM   #87
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That ATS is a diseased dog. Should be put down ASAP.
You know those wisecracks I was making about the 1984 Cimmaron?

Turns out I was correct. The ATS is a cheap, small Cadillac. It is not edgy or attractive; if anything, it's just a knockoff of the CTS.

It's too small for Cadillac's core customer, it's too low-end for any true luxury car owner, it's a car with no audience. Hard to believe that GM's current management fell into the same trap again.

BJ
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      11-01-2012, 09:28 PM   #88
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So BMW is making a car for the person who is in their 40s right now and they don't expect anyone in their 20s who wants all that stuff they've done away with to be interested in buying their cars? What about all the guys who bought bimmers in the early 90s...shouldn't they be pissed because they're now in their 50s or 60s and BMW makes cars for guys like you, who are in their 40s?

Your post makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't matter how old you get or I get, they don't make a car for one specific demographic. And pricing has nothing to do with your salary or my salary, it has to do with what price they can maximize profit at in the current market and you must know that.

And they've stated they are trying to get more female buyers. They are adapting the character of the vehicle to sell more. It's not a hard thing to see. The f30 is the most Lexus-like entry level sedan that BMW has ever made. The other luxury brands are moving more towards sport-tined vehicle to try and mimic BMW. THerefore, the gap is closing.

And go ahead and call Cadillac an off-brand. It's priced as a luxury brand and being evaluated at almost as good as the 3er in the first iteration of the ATS. But of course, you know more than all the people who make their living in the industry, right?
I don't know how to respond to your post because I agree with BMW's current strategy. I like the fact that the F30 is larger, softer, and more luxurious. If that makes it more chick-centric or more Lexus-like, good.

For those BMW enthusiasts who are living in 1997, they are supposedly working on a 1 Series sedan that should meet their needs.

Those who make their living in the industry of magazines are all about one thing; selling magazines. No BMW owner would ever drop their car for a Cadillac. A Cadillac is designed for an 80-year-old American, the very antithesis of what BMW drivers want to be perceived as.

ATS sales suck. Rocket science, I tell you.

BJ
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