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      11-02-2012, 04:08 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F30AM View Post
Fictional Truth.


Pretty girl (or boy):
Question: What car do you drive?
Answer: A Cadillac.
Reaction: I see. (Down turned mouth, total lack of interest).
End of conversation. No chance of a bonk.


Pretty girl (or boy):
Question: What car do you drive?
Answer: A BMW.
Reaction: Wow! That's nice. (Interest levels rising, eyes widening, chance of a fumble on the agenda).
Question: Which kind?
Answer: A 3 Series.
Reaction: Wow! How fab is that? (Huge interest, good chance of more than a fumble).
Question: Is it fast?
Answer: Yes, very.
Reaction: I bet it is. (Interest levels now rising really rapidly, widened eyes, nearly in for a bonk).
Question: Do you love it?
Answer: Very much. It's a fabulous car.
Reaction: Wow! You lucky sod. (The deal is nearly done. Bonking is on the agenda. Only a nuclear war can stop it).
Question: What colour is it?
Answer: Estoril Blue II with Coral Red Leather.
Reaction: Wow! It must look really lovely. (Interest levels now sky high, lots of bonking on the agenda, love is in the air).
Question: I'd love to have a ride in it. Can I?
The rest is history .........

A BMW is The Ultimate Driving Machine and then some.

I rest my case.

So the message of this thread is as follows, or am I wrong?

BMW: Brings Me Women, Brings More Women, Bought My Wife

Cadillac: Crazy And Demented Idiots Like Large American Cars
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      11-02-2012, 05:25 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
You know those wisecracks I was making about the 1984 Cimmaron?

Turns out I was correct. The ATS is a cheap, small Cadillac. It is not edgy or attractive; if anything, it's just a knockoff of the CTS.

It's too small for Cadillac's core customer, it's too low-end for any true luxury car owner, it's a car with no audience. Hard to believe that GM's current management fell into the same trap again.

BJ

still don't really get what they are thinking, at least business case wise. if you price out fairly similar cars, especially since the sport trims on the ATS are pretty expensive, an equivalent 328i costs the same.

amazingly it actually costs more. so a "luxury" trim ats 2.0t STARTS at msrp $39395 (and doesnt include xenons which aren't even an option!) , performance is $41895 (standard xenons , but for some reason no folding rear seat) for automatic versions (and lets not kid ourselves as a business case, we dont even need to think about the manual version given that means basically 0 in the real world, but they do give a $1260 discount for taking a manual, whereas BMW gives you $0 for taking a manual). destination for cadillacs is $895 just like BMW, and i did not include it in any of these prices. Also interestingly enough the CTS 3.6 V6 "performance" trim is 43430 MSRP AND it has the 18" rims and is bigger so it will play better to cadillac's traditional "i need a big ass american car" demographic. the CTS actaully IS a good value, and it only costs $1000 more than the ATS 2.0T performance if you adjust for the 18" seats. even more stupid, the 3.6 ATS performance base MSRP is ~$600 more than a CTS 3.6 performance model. WTF GM?

on carsdirect the target price is actually $500 over msrp , which is pure insanity but then again there arent that many 2.0T ones yet.

that said, the people running cadillac must be idiots. a 328i with say sport line, and automatic costs $39000 exactly MSRP. Now content wise its slightly different, the BMW has no leather seats (i think all the cadillacs have those 2), and cadillac's 18" rims are an extra $800. that said, the fact the BMW at this point costs less than either ATS is already terrible even if some of the cadillacs have a few extra miscellaneous features. it shouldn't even be close in price, it just makes 99% of people go with the "safe" choice (the BMW, which is obviously a BMW, and has a good reputation).

so for $39000 you are slightly under the "luxury" ats. of course thats the minimum you can pay for a luxury or sports ATS. in a weird twist BMW allows people to pay less for less features. so lets say you want don't want xenons , but want the sportier seats in the ATS 2.0 "performance" , you can spec a 328i like that, you can't actually do it on an ATS. so at this point your only big difference is leather seats and a large amount of people would probably say an ATS with cheap entry level leather (like most entry level cars) vs a BMW with basically the same features (with sport seats and sport suspension, or i suppose you could build a luxury line and probably be roughly equivalent too) is probably the right choice.

my point is..... the cars are roughly the same cost for all the important features. as much as BMW / cadillac reviews rave about it, the average "i want a nice car" consumer, really probably doesnt care about features like variable steering, dynamic handling, radar cruise, heads up displays, and blind spot detection radars etc. they just want to get in a car with the big checkbox features like "non cloth seats" (i seriously believe its more a matter of not being cloth than being leather, most under $70k car leather is not particularly good anyway) , "moonroof", "premium compared to a camry audio", "more power", "xenons" , "nav" etc. and obviously badge.

so value proposition lets just call it a wash for discussion sake. for most people they cost the same. BMW has more prestige than cadillac, i think objectively we can agree on that. So who buys an ATS and why? no one.

I remember when the original G35 came out, and people said it was a really good competitor to the E46 325i. it had a ton of power, it costs a lot less, and it was pretty sporty and well balanced, and ok maybe a little unrefinied with a fairly weak (though slightly better during its refresh) interior. I would know I bought one. But one thing really helped sell that car was even with its flaws it was really cheap. It was a GOOD VALUE. at the time a 325i was putting out what 184hp, vs 280 in the G35. You felt like you were paying less for at least more power even if other things were not equivalent. so infiniti made a name for itself at least for having a reason to buy it (now not so much as the G37 is actaully sort of expensive in sport trims).


So cadillac on the other hand, given the cost is the same, doesn't really provide more. It provides at best the same, and probably for more intensive purposes is a slightly worse car than the BMW with less prestige (and lets not kid ourselves this is important to most buyers). I mean I know this is a BMW forum, maybe the ATS handles slightly better, but most other things are at best equivalent or worse (and most reviews seem to indicate this). So you are going to buy 90% of a BMW, for 100% of the price with less badge prestige? i think not. maybe you will if the cadillac costs.... 85-90% of the BMW right, then at least you'd be gettting value or proportionate cost right?

See I don't run GM. I apparently am not stupid enough to. I'm predicting now, that maybe the ATS sells well at first to people who want to be "different". Eventually those people get theirs (just like PT cruisers or camaros were going for MSRP their first year etc) and then the rest of the ATSes just sit there or get sold to rental fleets. cadillac is forced to put $5000 discounts relative to BMW to move metal. so now the ATS is priced 85-90% of a 328i where it should have been in the first place, except now you have the stigma of , "it must suck because they are so discounted from MSRP" and "eh they have rental car versions of this at hertz just like the CTS". This is not how your build prestige, and not how you build a reputation for value. At least infiniti knew how to build a reputation for value.

of course GM doesn't think long term so this will probably be a mediocre success if it even is one. You have to give the engineers at GM credit for actually building a very good car (even if its 90% of a 328i, that is still very good). But their upper management is going to ruin this anyway. If they wanted to really steal BMW/audi/mercedes buyers they would just slash $5000 off the price of all the ATS MSRP just to make people even think of it as a competitor with the value proposition (obviously GM has not read the lexus/ infiniti play book... i'm assuming hyundai did this when they built the genesis). While they are at is get rid of the 2.5L model (it seems to me this is just some idiotic ploy to sell rental cars, and use up engine plant capacity, probably 2 things some accountant told them to do, when its not what makes a premium marque in america). And also limit sales to hertz , or say only sell loaded versions to hertz for cheap (when you rent a stripper CTS, 300 whatever, you are not exactly getting the best impression right?) . That would be investing for the long term, but GM doesnt do that. Yes GM hire me, hans007, i don't have an MBA but I think i've thought this out more than your people. This may be where Ford is smart. They know they can't compete with lincoln so they don't even try in this segment until they can come out with something that will build brand equity.

Last edited by hans007; 11-02-2012 at 06:03 AM.
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      11-02-2012, 05:37 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
I don't know how to respond to your post because I agree with BMW's current strategy. I like the fact that the F30 is larger, softer, and more luxurious. If that makes it more chick-centric or more Lexus-like, good.

For those BMW enthusiasts who are living in 1997, they are supposedly working on a 1 Series sedan that should meet their needs.

Those who make their living in the industry of magazines are all about one thing; selling magazines. No BMW owner would ever drop their car for a Cadillac. A Cadillac is designed for an 80-year-old American, the very antithesis of what BMW drivers want to be perceived as.

ATS sales suck. Rocket science, I tell you.

BJ
Well if BMW is going to try and now compete with Lexus for market share by building a Lexus chick-car clone, then good luck to them. There isn't a (female) Lexus owner anywhere that would drop her/his Lexus with its excellent reliability, impeccable craftsmanship, and low cost of ownership, for a subpar build quality and unreliable BMW.

And just how many 20 and 30 year olds go by the 7-Series?
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      11-02-2012, 05:43 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post


Taken moments ago in an Outlet Mall in Paramus, my first Cadillac ATS encounter.

Sitting while my wife shops, I see about 12 people stop to check it out. They are all 60+ with really bad taste in outerwear. The 3 Series Killer, indeed. Star of the Bergen Center Outlet Mall.

BJ
Wow, Paramus, New Jersey; and you think I live in suburbia? That's funny.
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      11-02-2012, 09:28 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post


This is the only Cadillac any BMW owner would be caught dead in.

BJ
The Funeral home in town has a all Black CTS-V, no joke. I'll snap a pic if you'd like proof. BUt those guys aren't very fashion forward with their black suits and all. I bet they don't even wear a Rolex, like some of you more affluent 328 drivers
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      11-02-2012, 09:37 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
You know those wisecracks I was making about the 1984 Cimmaron?

Turns out I was correct. The ATS is a cheap, small Cadillac. It is not edgy or attractive; if anything, it's just a knockoff of the CTS.

It's too small for Cadillac's core customer, it's too low-end for any true luxury car owner, it's a car with no audience. Hard to believe that GM's current management fell into the same trap again.

BJ
But ,by your own admission you've never been in an ATS or driven one & its dimensions are VERY close to an E46 . So you're telling me one of the most beautiful 3 series BMW ever made is too small?........or haven't you ever been in one of those either? Maybe you need to go out and buy a nice 318 ti to remind yourself , BMW isn't always right on the mark. & how the hell can Cadillac knock off there own car? ( CTS)
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      11-02-2012, 09:45 AM   #95
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[quote=boltjames;12928267] I agree with BMW's current strategy. I like the fact that the F30 is larger, softer, and more luxurious. If that makes it more chick-centric or more Lexus-like, good.


BJ,This quote alone proves to me that you don't even understand what a BMW should be about. More Chic-centric???? More Lexus Like??? Are you kidding me. Those 2 statements alone go against EVERYTHING BMW stands for ...especially the LEXUS-Like comment..you want to talk about a car for old people. But I'm sure they are dressed well

Last edited by Reznick; 11-02-2012 at 09:46 AM. Reason: added info
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      11-02-2012, 10:19 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reznick View Post

BJ,This quote alone proves to me that you don't even understand what a BMW should be about.

More Chic-centric???? More Lexus Like??? Are you kidding me. Those 2 statements alone go against EVERYTHING BMW stands for ...especially the LEXUS-Like comment..you want to talk about a car for old people. But I'm sure they are dressed well
You drive two old BMW's so you have no clue what today's drivers want out of their new cars.

We need more room for our growing families, a softer ride to comfort our aging bodies, and silent exhausts to quiet our hectic lifestyles. You want a harsh, loud, small car, go mod a Mazda.

This whole concept of "what a BMW should be about" is laughable. You know who knows the answer that question? That's right, BMW. So the fact that the F30 exists in its present form is proof positive that I am getting the car that I want and you are lost in 1995. BMW built the F30 because they know what their customers want. If it's softer, quieter, and more comfortable, it's because that's what market research told them.

Enjoy your used cars. Don't feel the need to tell us how we should be disliking our new ones.

BJ
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      11-02-2012, 11:39 AM   #97
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Thinking about it, the CTS makes sense because you're basically spending 3 series money for a 5 series-ish package. With the ATS you're spending 3 series-ish money... for a 3 series-ish package? I don't get it.
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      11-02-2012, 02:52 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
You drive two old BMW's so you have no clue what today's drivers want out of their new cars.

We need more room for our growing families, a softer ride to comfort our aging bodies, and silent exhausts to quiet our hectic lifestyles. You want a harsh, loud, small car, go mod a Mazda.

This whole concept of "what a BMW should be about" is laughable. You know who knows the answer that question? That's right, BMW. So the fact that the F30 exists in its present form is proof positive that I am getting the car that I want and you are lost in 1995. BMW built the F30 because they know what their customers want. If it's softer, quieter, and more comfortable, it's because that's what market research told them.

Enjoy your used cars. Don't feel the need to tell us how we should be disliking our new ones.

BJ
Hate to tell you BJ but I ordered a a 328 Sport as soon as they'd take the order. After one came in , I drove it and decided I'd wait for the 4 series. Search for it , I did I write up on the 328 & how much I liked it except for a few minor niggles. I've NEVER said anything about not liking the 328.....& in what world is an e92 M3 an OLD CAR??( & for them to be used someone else would have to have owned them) & for that matter you have no idea what I drive other than the few BMW's I listed . I keep my 330 because I like it, but I have the feeling as soon as something new comes along you'll dump your current car because to you its all about having the newest toy and being seen in it. No love for the car at all.So quit telling everyone here how your 328 is faster than a 335( I'm sure its faster than my OLD e92 M3 too). I've posted a # of times to different to people to buy what THEY want , not what a magazine tells them or someone on a forum telling tall tales tells them. Go drive the car and make up your own mind.Drive it because you like it.I'd love to visit your planet some time, it seems like a nice place
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      11-02-2012, 03:26 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
Thinking about it, the CTS makes sense because you're basically spending 3 series money for a 5 series-ish package. With the ATS you're spending 3 series-ish money... for a 3 series-ish package? I don't get it.
The BMW F30 is a perfect car.

So if you're Cadillac, and you're up against that, you do desperate things. No other reason for such an ugly, cheap, foolish car to be introduced.

BJ
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      11-02-2012, 03:40 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Reznick View Post
But ,by your own admission you've never been in an ATS or driven one & its dimensions are VERY close to an E46 . So you're telling me one of the most beautiful 3 series BMW ever made is too small?........or haven't you ever been in one of those either? Maybe you need to go out and buy a nice 318 ti to remind yourself , BMW isn't always right on the mark. & how the hell can Cadillac knock off there own car? ( CTS)
e46: Length 176" Width 68.5"
ATS: Length 182.8" Width 71.1" (taken from cadillac website)
f30: Length 182.5" Width 71.3"

So, can I assume that the f30 is also VERY close to the e46 in dimensions? I wonder why so many people are complaining about bloat?

Btw, I think women can appreciate driving and good cars. It's nonsense to blame them for a "softening" of the 3 series.
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      11-02-2012, 03:41 PM   #101
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Don't forget that the ATS will get sandwiched between the 3 series and the new 2 series 4 door coupe in 2014. BMW customers will have the choice of an E46 replacement as well and I bet it will be sport oriented and any bugs on electronic steering will be gone.
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      11-02-2012, 03:57 PM   #102
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Latest "Autobild" released yesterday, BMW 328i beat the Caddy. But it was a good contender.
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      11-02-2012, 04:55 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batislav View Post
e46: Length 176" Width 68.5"
ATS: Length 182.8" Width 71.1" (taken from cadillac website)
f30: Length 182.5" Width 71.3"

So, can I assume that the f30 is also VERY close to the e46 in dimensions? I wonder why so many people are complaining about bloat?

Btw, I think women can appreciate driving and good cars. It's nonsense to blame them for a "softening" of the 3 series.
Caddy said they wanted to use the E46 as their base is size and feel. But like everyone else that talks about making their cars smaller , it just never happens.Although the feel(the way it drives. Looks on the other hand are subjective) of the car is very nice (crumple zones and having a place to put 20 airbags , I'm sure doesn't help) .It seems to be a natural progression with every car no matter the manufacturer.I can understand the weight going up because some things are out of their control( government mandated add ons & to negate that means costly lighter materials). I really hope someone comes to their sense and gets away from SO much luxury.& I'll fully agree with you that the "softening" of the 3 series is for the ladies. Thats a load of crap.My wife does a lot of track time( or did , before i got hurt) and the last thing she wants is a "soft" car.She doesn't even want the car she uses as daily drivers to feel isolated and disconnected.Though I wouldn't go as far as to say thats how the current 3 series feels .
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      11-02-2012, 05:05 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
The BMW F30 is a perfect car.

So if you're Cadillac, and you're up against that, you do desperate things. No other reason for such an ugly, cheap, foolish car to be introduced.

BJ
Its SO perfect that there's is a 7 page article in the new C&D about BMW offering Hydraulic & Electric power steering. They go on to discuss how mediocre BOTH systems are are.BMW continues to work on the the system much like Porsche because they realize that nothing is perfect . Its a good thing they don't bury their head in the the sand like some people do
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      11-02-2012, 07:09 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F30AM View Post
Fictional Truth.


Pretty girl (or boy):
Question: What car do you drive?
Answer: A Cadillac.
Reaction: I see. (Down turned mouth, total lack of interest).
End of conversation. No chance of a bonk.


Pretty girl (or boy):
Question: What car do you drive?
Answer: A BMW.
Reaction: Wow! That's nice. (Interest levels rising, eyes widening, chance of a fumble on the agenda).
Question: Which kind?
Answer: A 3 Series.
Reaction: Wow! How fab is that? (Huge interest, good chance of more than a fumble).
Question: Is it fast?
Answer: Yes, very.
Reaction: I bet it is. (Interest levels now rising really rapidly, widened eyes, nearly in for a bonk).
Question: Do you love it?
Answer: Very much. It's a fabulous car.
Reaction: Wow! You lucky sod. (The deal is nearly done. Bonking is on the agenda. Only a nuclear war can stop it).
Question: What colour is it?
Answer: Estoril Blue II with Coral Red Leather.
Reaction: Wow! It must look really lovely. (Interest levels now sky high, lots of bonking on the agenda, love is in the air).
Question: I'd love to have a ride in it. Can I?
The rest is history .........

A BMW is The Ultimate Driving Machine and then some.

I rest my case.

Sorry ,never needed a car to get me laid., and if you were counting on a Caddy getting you laid you'd need a sh!t load of Viagra according BJ , but thats just pathetic
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      11-02-2012, 07:36 PM   #106
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The average age of a Caddy buyer is low- to mid-60s; for BMW its mid-40s.

Things don't change overnight. Marketing rhetoric aside Caddy is in this for the long term, looking first to displace Lexus and then the Germans.

No one has a lock on the 2020s yet and I see no reason to discount any lux-maker's chances going forward.
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      11-02-2012, 10:05 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reznick View Post
Its SO perfect that there's is a 7 page article in the new C&D about BMW offering Hydraulic & Electric power steering. They go on to discuss how mediocre BOTH systems are are.BMW continues to work on the the system much like Porsche because they realize that nothing is perfect . Its a good thing they don't bury their head in the the sand like some people do
Automotive magazines exist for one purpose and one purpose only:

To sell automotive magazines.

Look, you don't want to hear this but I'm going to say it anyway. There is nothing wrong with the BMW 3 Series. Your problem isn't the car, your problem is you. BMWs customers have spoken, and we got exactly what we wanted. The car is larger, softer, more powerful, and more comfortable. All for virtually the same money. The 30-year-old E36 driver of 20 years ago is now 50. He grew up. He doesn't use local streets as a dragstrip anymore. He needs a car that's larger to haul the kids and the family dog, he needs a car that's softer to relieve the pain on his aching back, he needs a car with all new technology to support his iOS devices habit.

Nobody cares about hydraulic steering, unsprung weight, road feel, exhaust notes or any of that other faux-enthusiast nonsense anymore. We're not 30, we're 50. BMW wouldn't have built the car this way if the facts were different. The car has moved on; now so must you.

BJ
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      11-02-2012, 11:40 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
Automotive magazines exist for one purpose and one purpose only:

To sell automotive magazines.

Look, you don't want to hear this but I'm going to say it anyway. There is nothing wrong with the BMW 3 Series. Your problem isn't the car, your problem is you. BMWs customers have spoken, and we got exactly what we wanted. The car is larger, softer, more powerful, and more comfortable. All for virtually the same money. The 30-year-old E36 driver of 20 years ago is now 50. He grew up. He doesn't use local streets as a dragstrip anymore. He needs a car that's larger to haul the kids and the family dog, he needs a car that's softer to relieve the pain on his aching back, he needs a car with all new technology to support his iOS devices habit.

Nobody cares about hydraulic steering, unsprung weight, road feel, exhaust notes or any of that other faux-enthusiast nonsense anymore. We're not 30, we're 50. BMW wouldn't have built the car this way if the facts were different. The car has moved on; now so must you.

BJ
This just a stupid statement. I was a 26 year-old E30 driver. I had the car for 18 years and moved on to a E90 in 2006 because to me it was closer to the E30 than the E46 was. Sorry, but 50-year olds like me do care about hydraulic steering, unsprung weight, road feel, and intake noise and exhaust note, so go speak for yourself not everyone in the BMW community. I did seriously consider the 1st gen Lexus 300 in 2005/06 and it was no E46/E90. It felt like a Toyota. BMW built the F30 for a wider audience to sell more cars and make more profit; all good reasons, but it lost some enthusiasts as a result.

Your other statements say Cadillacs are for 60-year old, poorly dressed non-enthusiasts, and then go on the say the F30 is for 50-year olds well dressed non-enthusiasts; so which is it, BMWs are for the soft over-50 crowd (where Cadillac apparently already is) or BMWs are still the cars for the enthusiast driver.

I've moved on, yes, hopefully the ATS will fill the bill.
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      11-03-2012, 12:31 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
This just a stupid statement. I was a 26 year-old E30 driver. I had the car for 18 years and moved on to a E90 in 2006 because to me it was closer to the E30 than the E46 was. Sorry, but 50-year olds like me do care about hydraulic steering, unsprung weight, road feel, and intake noise and exhaust note, so go speak for yourself not everyone in the BMW community. I did seriously consider the 1st gen Lexus 300 in 2005/06 and it was no E46/E90. It felt like a Toyota. BMW built the F30 for a wider audience to sell more cars and make more profit; all good reasons, but it lost some enthusiasts as a result.

Your other statements say Cadillacs are for 60-year old, poorly dressed non-enthusiasts, and then go on the say the F30 is for 50-year olds well dressed non-enthusiasts; so which is it, BMWs are for the soft over-50 crowd (where Cadillac apparently already is) or BMWs are still the cars for the enthusiast driver.

I've moved on, yes, hopefully the ATS will fill the bill.
Look, any product has its 2%'ers who mean well but bought the wrong thing.

Out of the 85 Million iPhones sold a handful want it to make toast; when it can't, you don't blame the iPhone. You blame the owner and his foolish expectations.

BJ
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      11-03-2012, 05:01 AM   #110
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Sorry ,never needed a car to get me laid., and if you were counting on a Caddy getting you laid you'd need a sh!t load of Viagra according BJ , but thats just pathetic
What my 'Fictional Truth' meant to convey is that people make good choices and bad choices. IMO, a Cruddy is a really bad choice.

BJ is probably right about the Viagra ingest.
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