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      11-06-2012, 12:57 AM   #155
batislav
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Because he's been shitting on the Cadillac ATS since the start of this thread and he's not even seen one (other than at a mall) nor driven it. If he's happy driving his F30, than great for him, but he doesn't need to crap all over the ATS like it has no comparative value to the F30, or any BMW 3-series. He's made idiotic statements, and we've called him on it. That's all.
Fair enough, you're both entitled to your opinions.

You, and others, might consider that people are using the term BMW drivers in different contexts. Given the list of cars you own/have owned, I don't think many BMW owners have similar tastes in cars as you do--especially in Europe, the home continent (the N.American mindset and product offerings are very different than that of Europe). You like some BMWs, but you also like some cars that are completely different from anything BMW has on offer. Honestly, I wouldn't take most of them, even for free.

Regardless, this is an internet forum. Lofty editorial standards and reasoned discourse aren't the norm. boltjames is probably right that cadillac forums would have a more receptive and openminded outlook on the ATS than you'd expect here.
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      11-06-2012, 06:11 AM   #156
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There's nothing idiotic about the ATS except, of course, its existence.

Show me your posts in a Cadillac forum.

Thought so.

BJ
You have more than proven to me of what I find most typical on this Forum: BMW fanboys, who have no deep track record with the brand, and are totally myopic in thought. All anyone here has said is the ATS is a great car, better in ways than the 3-series and not better in other ways. You make stupid statements such as "There's nothing idiotic about the ATS except, of course, its existence", which just goes to show you have no real intention to have an educated and thoughtful discussion on the matter.

I'm on this Forum to have thoughtful conversations about automobiles with like-minded enthusiasts. I have a fondness for BMWs, but am open-minded enough to recognize other manufacturers make great cars too. It's a sad state to find people on this Forum that insist on being an ass.
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      11-06-2012, 06:31 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by batislav View Post
Fair enough, you're both entitled to your opinions.

You, and others, might consider that people are using the term BMW drivers in different contexts. Given the list of cars you own/have owned, I don't think many BMW owners have similar tastes in cars as you do--especially in Europe, the home continent (the N.American mindset and product offerings are very different than that of Europe). You like some BMWs, but you also like some cars that are completely different from anything BMW has on offer. Honestly, I wouldn't take most of them, even for free.

Regardless, this is an internet forum. Lofty editorial standards and reasoned discourse aren't the norm. boltjames is probably right that cadillac forums would have a more receptive and openminded outlook on the ATS than you'd expect here.
Sure, but isn't the lack of open-mindedness what leads to behaviors such as racism, bigotry, sexism, and the like. So the rule here is if you disrespect the brand that is BMW you get labeled and aren't allowed to play the BimmerPost sandbox? Wow.
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      11-06-2012, 07:01 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
You have more than proven to me of what I find most typical on this Forum: BMW fanboys, who have no deep track record with the brand, and are totally myopic in thought. All anyone here has said is the ATS is a great car, better in ways than the 3-series and not better in other ways. You make stupid statements such as "There's nothing idiotic about the ATS except, of course, its existence", which just goes to show you have no real intention to have an educated and thoughtful discussion on the matter.

I'm on this Forum to have thoughtful conversations about automobiles with like-minded enthusiasts. I have a fondness for BMWs, but am open-minded enough to recognize other manufacturers make great cars too. It's a sad state to find people on this Forum that insist on being an ass.
Quite an elitist statement again right there.

And as the ATS' target customer who has owned cars in this segment since 1994 I'm quite qualified to say it has no reason to exist on grounds I've stated many times long before you ever brought your conceited and arrogant point of view here.

It's too small for a Cadillac owner. It's too bland for an Audi owner. It's too old for anyone under 50. It's a humiliating step-down for a BMW or Mercedes owner. Like the Cimmaron, it's a car for no one.

When are you getting your ATS, chief. Yup, thought so.

BJ
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      11-06-2012, 07:06 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Sure, but isn't the lack of open-mindedness what leads to behaviors such as racism, bigotry, sexism, and the like. So the rule here is if you disrespect the brand that is BMW you get labeled and aren't allowed to play the BimmerPost sandbox? Wow.
Some ideas are so stupid they get rejected immediately on the grounds of their lunacy.

Go start a "Zune Rocks!" thread over in the Apple forums, perhaps "RC Cola Is The Pepsi Killer!" thread over in the Coke-a-Cola forums, see how that works out for you.

BJ
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      11-06-2012, 07:22 AM   #160
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Quite an elitist statement again right there.

And as the ATS' target customer who has owned cars in this segment since 1994 I'm quite qualified to say it has no reason to exist on grounds I've stated many times long before you ever brought your conceited and arrogant point of view here.

It's too small for a Cadillac owner. It's too bland for an Audi owner. It's too old for anyone under 50. It's a humiliating step-down for a BMW or Mercedes owner. Like the Cimmaron, it's a car for no one.

When are you getting your ATS, chief. Yup, thought so.

BJ

interesting thing about your point. i think part of what dooms the ATS is that well its a cadillac. i've sat in it and it seemed ok. it seems too expensive. it seems that normal caddy buyers wont buy it. but from what i've read its at least a decent drive.

The crazy thing is if the ATS were made by say ... acura, and had say 2005 acura styling but 2012 cadillac chassis and drive train it'd probably sell really well (well lets pretend it cost acura TL money).

unfortunately it is made by cadillac and all the preceptions that go with it. I am not even saying its better than a BMW or an audi or whatever (since it most likely is not and its actually not even priced competitively lease or purchase), but cadillac's problem is its cadillac in a lot of things.

supposedly the next camaro might be based on this chassis, and for say $25k. the chassis might actaully be a real class leader there, and be headed for the right demographic.

Last edited by hans007; 11-06-2012 at 08:18 AM.
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      11-06-2012, 07:43 AM   #161
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I drove the ATS 3.6 again yesterday and then the 335i M-Sport with sport auto afterwards so I can make my mind up about which one to lease for the next 24-30 months. The ATS interior is impressive; quiet and seemed very well finished. The touch screen CUE system seems novel but I am a neat freak and all the finger marks on the screen would drive me crazy! Still, most importantly, the drive was good. I even got a little over steer coming out of a low speed corner which is easily corrected with the throttle (my other car is a C63 so I'm used to that).

However, the BMW is just better in every respect. It's noticeably quicker in a straight line; quicker in turns with some under steer which is easy to deal with. The electric steering is not totally devoid of feel (in sport and sport+ modes); it's actually quieter too. The interior (Sport seats) seemed more comfortable and just as well made.

I think the clinchers for me were:
1. The BMW N55 engine is cheaply and easily modified to yield another 40-50 rwhp (thus making it very quick)

2. Even though comparably equipped 335 is about 7k$ more, the lease payment on a 30 month, 15000 miles lease is LOWER than on the similar (27 month) Cadillac lease! The reasons are the residual values (Cadillac is lower on 27 months than BMW is on 30 months) and the BMW discount from invoice I was offered!

So, even though I cannot be considered completely objective (I had a 2008 135i up until 2 years ago), the BMW 335i is the better car and the better deal.
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      11-06-2012, 07:49 AM   #162
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interesting thing about your point. i think part of what dooms the ATS is that well its a cadillac. i've sat in it and it seemed ok. it seems too expensive. it seems that normal caddy buyers wont buy it. but from what i've read its at least a decent drive.

The crazy thing is if the ATS were made by say ... acura, and had say 2005 acura styling but 2012 cadillac chassis and drive train it'd probably sell really well (well lets pretend it cost acura TL money).

unfortunately it is made by cadillac and all the preceptions that go with it. I am not even saying its better than a BMW or an audi or whatever (since it most likely is not and its actually not even priced competitively lease or purchase), but cadillac's probably is its cadillac in a lot of things.

supposedly the next camaro might be based on this chassis, and for say $25k. the chassis might actaully be a real class leader there, and be headed for the right demographic.
& there you have it perfectly. People have an idea of what this car is but the last time they were in a Cadillac was the 80's. A lot has changed since then and people will dismiss it without even trying. Its a shame.A test drive won't cost you anything , so why not?But in the end it wouldn't matter because some people already have their mind made up and nothing will change that.
The title of the video is just plain stupid. (ATS a 3 series Killer!!) but i don't remember 1 person on this forum that said the ATS , is a 3 SERIES KILLER , just that its a very good car that shouldn't be dismissed

Last edited by Reznick; 11-06-2012 at 07:53 AM. Reason: added
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      11-06-2012, 09:07 AM   #163
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Sure, but isn't the lack of open-mindedness what leads to behaviors such as racism, bigotry, sexism, and the like. So the rule here is if you disrespect the brand that is BMW you get labeled and aren't allowed to play the BimmerPost sandbox? Wow.
I think that's overstating it a bit. Judging people for things they can't control is much worse than judging companies for the products they control. Lots of people would appreciate more civilized discourse, but in an open forum (like in politics) the loud mouthed and vulgar usually draw the most attention. As for this forum, there are places more amenable to general discussion and discussing cars as a whole than the f30 forum. I think, upon entering, it is assumed there will be f30 fanboys in greater numbers here than anywhere else. That being said many people love the S4 on here, even preferring it to the 335i so generally good cars are given their due by a majority of people.

My point is that there isn't a good or bad side of the argument. Many of the pro-ATS posts sound just as pedantic and judgmental as those of the f30 fanboys sound idiotic. No one is under any obligation to test drive a new car in the 3 series segment. No one has to give cadillac a fair shot. They earned their less than stellar reputation, just as toyota earned their reliable reputation. When cadillac is putting out products that are more desirable and have features that excite customers more people will give them a shot and test drive their cars. Companies have to earn the respect of the consumer. The Cimarron comes up because it was the last GM foray into this segment. It didn't go well. Cadillac still told people it was great.

Right now they get to be the boy who cried wolf. Maybe the ATS is a wolf, maybe it isn't, but I'm not surprised that some people aren't taking them seriously. There are too many products on the market, including this segment, for people to be able to be informed on all of them. Even if BMW is coasting on respect earned in the past, that is their prize for putting out consistently good products. If Cadillac had done the same more people on here would be interested in potentially owning the ATS.

If the ATS keeps getting favorable reviews, I'm sure many of the people who dismissed it at the start will give it a more serious look.
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      11-06-2012, 09:32 AM   #164
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So,then BMW elitists are ok when they are elitists for the right reasons. I prefer to live in a world where you don't have to pass a special test to buy a car you like; or receive permission from a special priesthood of drivers. I also don't think an "enthusiast" politburo should be anointing what makes a "driver's car." Mechanical precision is nice, but being able to control your radio more easily is also good for a driver.


The problem is the driving experience is subjective enough that it is hard to say that any opinion is objectively superior to that of another. Nothing you described as being unique to BMW seems to be that different from what a porsche customer would say about their, entirely different, cars. What you see as a lowering of standards and unfortunate compromise can just as easily interpreted as old people complaining about the good old days.

In the end, my problem is that I don't think someone who prefers the driving experience of the f30 to that of the e30 should be dismissed as wrongheaded or chasing lexus. Nor do I think anyone should be criticized for liking their car.

Obviously, that's wrong when BMW customers criticize people who like the ATS, but when people criticize f30s (for the right reasons with historical references) it's certainly ok.

Isn't it possible that boltjames really thinks his car is perfect for him? Why begrudge his happiness. Why spend 20 years complaining that no one is building the right type of car? Get what you like and enjoy it.

You are exactly right. We have 2 groups on at different extremes that both fight fiercely for the same car. I may prefer a "drivers" car without a lot of gadgets but I understand that people want more luxury. Fine, I've always told people to drive what THEY want.

It is possible and I hope Bolt truly loves what he drives, but if you look at his other posts on other threads, he slams EVERYTHING that isn't a F30 328 . I mean everything,,335's, M3's 128's ect..ect..This is a BMW site for BMW enthusiasts not a 328 site . That goes beyond being an "Elitist" as he likes to call himself. It wouldn't have mattered if the name of the video posted was " BMW 335 is a 328 killer" his responses would be the same.

Last edited by Reznick; 11-06-2012 at 09:40 AM. Reason: added info
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      11-06-2012, 11:52 AM   #165
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You have more than proven to me of what I find most typical on this Forum: BMW fanboys, who have no deep track record with the brand, and are totally myopic in thought. All anyone here has said is the ATS is a great car, better in ways than the 3-series and not better in other ways. You make stupid statements such as "There's nothing idiotic about the ATS except, of course, its existence", which just goes to show you have no real intention to have an educated and thoughtful discussion on the matter.

I'm on this Forum to have thoughtful conversations about automobiles with like-minded enthusiasts. I have a fondness for BMWs, but am open-minded enough to recognize other manufacturers make great cars too. It's a sad state to find people on this Forum that insist on being an ass.
Preach!
I am a car guy not a just a bmw guy. To lock yourself into liking only one brand is the exact opposite of being an enthusiast/gear head/car guy/petrol head. Ever since Cadillac made the cts-v they have gain my respect. I have driven the ATS unlike some people here and it is closer to bmw driving feel then any lexus or mercedes (cars I have also driven) and it is on my short list of cars for when I will be replacing my 335i in May.
Short list is 1. Jaguar XF AWD 2. BMW F30 335i xDrive M-Sport 3. Cadillac ATS 3.6 AWD, all three of which are good cars.
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      11-06-2012, 11:55 AM   #166
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Quite an elitist statement again right there.

And as the ATS' target customer who has owned cars in this segment since 1994 I'm quite qualified to say it has no reason to exist on grounds I've stated many times long before you ever brought your conceited and arrogant point of view here.

It's too small for a Cadillac owner. It's too bland for an Audi owner. It's too old for anyone under 50. It's a humiliating step-down for a BMW or Mercedes owner. Like the Cimmaron, it's a car for no one.

When are you getting your ATS, chief. Yup, thought so.

BJ
August 2014 when my E90 hits 250K, that's my target date to replace my current DD.
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      11-06-2012, 02:02 PM   #167
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August 2014 when my E90 hits 250K, that's my target date to replace my current DD.
Hold on....hold on....

You are hating on the F30 and puppy-loving the ATS and you keep your cars to a quarter-million miles and you are considering a General Motors product?

We have our Enthusiasts, we have our Elitists, now we have our first Masochist.

LOLZ

BJ
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      11-06-2012, 02:23 PM   #168
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Let's make this the longest thread, EVER!

After Sandy, this is the real thing: A storm in a tea cup! You know how we Brits love a cuppa tea. Keep pouring!
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      11-06-2012, 02:27 PM   #169
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Everybody's a snob about something, even if that something is NOT being a snob.
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      11-06-2012, 05:26 PM   #170
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Everybody's a snob about something, even if that something is NOT being a snob.
mind = inceptioned
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      11-06-2012, 05:51 PM   #171
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mind = inceptioned
You're welcome.
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      11-06-2012, 07:10 PM   #172
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mind = inceptioned
I need a "kick" .I'm stuck in a thread where I'm being chased by Elitists, FAux Enthusiasts,real Entusists and every F30 328 is the perfect car on the road....If you don't get me out I could be stuck in this thread forever....my top won't stop spinning......
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      11-06-2012, 08:51 PM   #173
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Hold on....hold on....

You are hating on the F30 and puppy-loving the ATS and you keep your cars to a quarter-million miles and you are considering a General Motors product?

We have our Enthusiasts, we have our Elitists, now we have our first Masochist.

LOLZ

BJ
Yes. Apparently you are uninformed... You've not read any of the thousands of threads on E90 Post where almost everyone is absolutely frightened to keep a BMW past the warranty period. And you laugh at me. Seriously LOL.

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      11-07-2012, 10:07 AM   #174
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I need a "kick" .I'm stuck in a thread where I'm being chased by Elitists, FAux Enthusiasts,real Entusists and every F30 328 is the perfect car on the road....If you don't get me out I could be stuck in this thread forever....my top won't stop spinning......
Don't forget the Cadillac Masochist and the Estoril Purple II people.

They have feelings too, you know.

BJ
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      11-28-2012, 06:27 AM   #175
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Your point is not a very good one. The bmw manual isn't perfect. But its better than the ATS(from all reports).
My appologies for digging this all back up, but Motor Trend's latest long-term update on the BMW 328i said this:

"Some days, I wish we'd gotten the eight-speed automatic in our long-term 328i. The manual transmission is just OK. The shifter feels like it's made of rubber, and snaps into gear like the latch on a microwave (oven) door. It doesn't feel particularly mechanical, and doesn't really like to be hurried." - Scott Evans, Motor Trend.

Wow. The worst I've seen written about the ATS is the shifter is "notchy" and the clutch take up is not great due to a heavy flywheel.

Sounds like to me the shift quality of both the ATS and 328i have something left to be desired.
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      11-28-2012, 11:05 AM   #176
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My appologies for digging this all back up, but Motor Trend's latest long-term update on the BMW 328i said this:

"Some days, I wish we'd gotten the eight-speed automatic in our long-term 328i. The manual transmission is just OK. The shifter feels like it's made of rubber, and snaps into gear like the latch on a microwave (oven) door. It doesn't feel particularly mechanical, and doesn't really like to be hurried." - Scott Evans, Motor Trend.

Wow. The worst I've seen written about the ATS is the shifter is "notchy" and the clutch take up is not great due to a heavy flywheel.

Sounds like to me the shift quality of both the ATS and 328i have something left to be desired.
that's one guys opinion. Every thing i have read about the ATS manual everyone hated it.
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