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      12-05-2016, 01:56 PM   #1
ouengineer
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Summer, winter, all-season tire comparison

I've been doing a good amount of research on tires lately and thought I'd share what I found.

I first came across several articles comparing winter, summer, and all-season tires that suggested that I really needed winter tires for winter and summer tires for summer and that all-season tires just didn't do either well at all. So I planned to spend more money to run two sets of tires and accept the low treadwear and poor cold weather performance of the summer tires and generally poor dry/wet/noise of the winter tires throughout winter. However, I later noticed all of those articles were quite old and that the high performance all-season tire had seen revolutionary changes in recent years.

After reading through lots of forum posts, I had settled on UHP all-seasons as the right tire for commuting in the Colorado front range climate (snows a few times, but usually melts off instantly, ice is rarely an issue) since we put winter tires on my wife's Jeep for driving to the mountains. But I was still curious in how these UHP all-seasons actually stacked up against the top winter performance tires as well as the top summer performance tires.

The following chart is created from Tire Rack's tire tests. All tests were done on the same 2014 F30 328i with the all-seasons and summer tires utilizing a 245/40 R18 (the size I will run) and the winter tires being 215/60 R16.

Of note: These tire rack test results are all done not only on different days, but different years for some and so even the objective results from different tests should not be compared directly. However, they can be compared in a broader sense that if the numbers are close, it can be assumed that the performance is not too far off. For instance, the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ held 0.93g of lateral grip vs 0.92g for the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. This does not necessarily show that the all-season version has better lateral grip than the summer tire, but it does show that it is likely not far off.

Some of the things I learned from this comparison are:
  • Stopping distance and lap times in the snow are much closer between all-season and winter tires. Ice and extreme cold is where the big performance advantage of winter tires lies.
  • Wet performance of UHP all-seasons is now comparable with some summer tires.
  • Ride comfort is comparable across all 3, however noise comfort is quite a bit lower for winter tires.
  • Dry grip and lap times of UHP all-seasons compare very well to summers. It seems to me the difference might only be noticeable on the track.
  • Winter tires are awful in very wet conditions.

Note: These observations were made from also looking at other tires' test results and not just the best performing ones shown in the spreadsheet. Also, wording has been edited to be more technically correct based on feedback from posters and further research. It appears new use of silica compounds has significantly improved performance characteristics of both winter and all-season tires in recent years.

Also, hoping to see a winter test soon for the Pilot Sport A/S 3+ and Pirelli P-Zero All Season Plus with the new compound. I reported the old values in the spreadsheet for now, but it appears both tires have much improved snow traction. If they can just get close to where some of the other UHP all-seasons are in the snow, then these will be phenomenal options. Particularly the Pirelli, as it otherwise seems to be the perfect tire for my needs (snow braking from 25mph would have to get under 100ft though at a minimum; I do have to drive home in light snow occasionally).

Thoughts?
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      12-07-2016, 12:30 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ouengineer View Post
I've been doing a good amount of research on tires lately and thought I'd share what I found.
Some of the things I learned from this comparison are:
  • Stopping distance and lap times in the snow are very comparable between all-season and winter tires. Ice is where the big performance advantage of winter tires lies.
  • Wet performance of UHP all-seasons is now as good and even better than some summer tires.
  • Ride comfort is comparable across all 3, however noise comfort is quite a bit lower for winter tires.
  • Dry grip and lap times of UHP all-seasons compare very well to summers. It seems to me the difference might only be noticeable on the track.
  • Winter tires are awful in wet conditions.
Yeah right

Interesting testing done however. Assuming tire pressure has been correct on all the test (otherwise tests are worthless)

Well tires are made for a certain range to work in.
A summer tire on wet cold surface can have longer braking distance as an A/S sure. But do the test again on a wet warm surface like in summer.
Same for driving in snow. If it is very cold snow results could look different.
Same for driving on dry cold or dry warm surface.

I'm still convinced that going winter tires in winter and summer tires in summer is right for me.
But sure A/S have become better over the last years and are probably a fair option for many conditions.
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      12-15-2016, 04:49 PM   #3
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It's all from Tire Rack's test results. The all season tires were tested for snow and ice during different tests. Their dry and wet performance were testing during summer along the same time as the summer tires and their winter performance tested during winter.

IMO, the tests seem to be done well enough to validate the conclusions I made.

Again, I am not saying that these new A/S are better or even as good for dry performance, just that it appears the gap has closed significantly for both wet and dry performance and it is possible they could be even better in wet now.

I will acknowledge though that it is possible the wet performance of the winter tires was somewhat affected by the colder winter roads, but that didn't seem to significantly affect the dry performance to the same degree, so I think that conclusion also holds up well.
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      12-15-2016, 06:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ouengineer View Post
It's all from Tire Rack's test results. The all season tires were tested for snow and ice during different tests. Their dry and wet performance were testing during summer along the same time as the summer tires and their winter performance tested during winter.

IMO, the tests seem to be done well enough to validate the conclusions I made.

Again, I am not saying that these new A/S are better or even as good for dry performance, just that it appears the gap has closed significantly for both wet and dry performance and it is possible they could be even better in wet now.

I will acknowledge though that it is possible the wet performance of the winter tires was somewhat affected by the colder winter roads, but that didn't seem to significantly affect the dry performance to the same degree, so I think that conclusion also holds up well.
I have Pirelli P Zero All Season Plus tires (original compound) on my 2014 335i M Sport, and can confirm that they are great tires. Not mushy at all. Nice and crisp, while being very quiet. I love the quietness. The ride is a significant improvement over the OEM run-flats, but not like a touring tire would be. You can tell that the sidewalls are fairly stiff, which is what I want. I did not want a sloppy tire! I haven't driven on anything but summer tires in many years, so I was really worried about going with any all-season tire. Years ago I put some all-season tires on a sports car and was hugely disappointed. I swore I'd never do that again, and I didn't for many years. But, I've been very pleased with these and don't think I've lost much by dropping the summer tires. I've driven the same car as mine with Michelin Pilot All Season Plus tires and I couldn't tell much difference between them and the Pirellis. The Pirellis are quieter so I like them better. I'm now very happy with my Pirellis. Things have changed.
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      12-15-2016, 08:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob@NC View Post
I have Pirelli P Zero All Season Plus tires (original compound) on my 2014 335i M Sport, and can confirm that they are great tires. Not mushy at all. Nice and crisp, while being very quiet. I love the quietness. The ride is a significant improvement over the OEM run-flats, but not like a touring tire would be. You can tell that the sidewalls are fairly stiff, which is what I want. I did not want a sloppy tire! I haven't driven on anything but summer tires in many years, so I was really worried about going with any all-season tire. Years ago I put some all-season tires on a sports car and was hugely disappointed. I swore I'd never do that again, and I didn't for many years. But, I've been very pleased with these and don't think I've lost much by dropping the summer tires. I've driven the same car as mine with Michelin Pilot All Season Plus tires and I couldn't tell much difference between them and the Pirellis. The Pirellis are quieter so I like them better. I'm now very happy with my Pirellis. Things have changed.
Thanks for the feedback! UHP A/S now seems like a very good and longer lasting option.

Have you had to use them in any snow?
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      12-15-2016, 10:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ouengineer View Post
I've been doing a good amount of research on tires lately and thought I'd share what I found.

I first came across several articles comparing winter, summer, and all-season tires that suggested that I really needed winter tires for winter and summer tires for summer and that all-season tires just didn't do either well at all. So I planned to spend more money to run two sets of tires and accept the low treadwear and poor cold weather performance of the summer tires and generally poor dry/wet/noise of the winter tires throughout winter. However, I later noticed all of those articles were quite old and that the high performance all-season tire had seen revolutionary changes in recent years.

After reading through lots of forum posts, I had settled on UHP all-seasons as the right tire for commuting in the Colorado front range climate (snows a few times, but usually melts off instantly, ice is rarely an issue) since we put winter tires on my wife's Jeep for driving to the mountains. But I was still curious in how these UHP all-seasons actually stacked up against the top winter performance tires as well as the top summer performance tires.

The following chart is created from Tire Rack's tire tests. All tests were done on the same 2014 F30 328i with the all-seasons and summer tires utilizing a 245/40 R18 (the size I will run) and the winter tires being 215/60 R16.

Of note: These tire rack test results are all done not only on different days, but different years for some and so even the objective results from different tests should not be compared directly. However, they can be compared in a broader sense that if the numbers are close, it can be assumed that the performance is not too far off. For instance, the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ held 0.93g of lateral grip vs 0.92g for the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. This does not necessarily show that the all-season version has better lateral grip than the summer tire, but it does show that it is likely not far off.

Some of the things I learned from this comparison are:
  • Stopping distance and lap times in the snow are very comparable between all-season and winter tires. Ice is where the big performance advantage of winter tires lies.
  • Wet performance of UHP all-seasons is now as good and even better than some summer tires.
  • Ride comfort is comparable across all 3, however noise comfort is quite a bit lower for winter tires.
  • Dry grip and lap times of UHP all-seasons compare very well to summers. It seems to me the difference might only be noticeable on the track.
  • Winter tires are awful in wet conditions.

Note: These observations were made from also looking at other tires' test results and not just the best performing ones shown in the spreadsheet.

Also, hoping to see a winter test soon for the Pilot Sport A/S 3+ and Pirelli P-Zero All Season Plus with the new compound. I reported the old values in the spreadsheet for now, but it appears both tires have much improved snow traction. If they can just get close to where some of the other UHP all-seasons are in the snow, then these will be phenomenal options. Particularly the Pirelli, as it otherwise seems to be the perfect tire for my needs (snow braking from 25mph would have to get under 100ft though at a minimum; I do have to drive home in light snow occasionally).

Thoughts?
I've driven on a few of these tires: Michelin X-Ice Xi3, Michelin Pilot Super Sport, Michelin Pilot Sport A/S3+, and Continental DWS.

I disagree with your conclusions that these tires are similar. If those tests weren't done on the same days with measured road surface temperatures, then you're comparing apples to oranges.

The Michelin PSS is better than the A/S 3+ in dry and wet both in terms of traction and behavior in temperatures above 60F. As the road surface temperatures rise, the difference will be even greater.

The Continental DWS and Michelin A/S 3+ don't hold a candle to the Michelin X-Ice Xi3 in sub 40F temperatures - dry, wet, orsnow/ice.

What is generally hard for magazine reviews to convey is how a car/tire behaves once you've transitioned from static friction to dynamic friction. Recovery in less than ideal conditions is much easier with a winter tire in the winter and a summer tire in the summer.
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      12-16-2016, 10:34 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ouengineer View Post
Thanks for the feedback! UHP A/S now seems like a very good and longer lasting option.

Have you had to use them in any snow?
I have and they're ok. That said when I was using the P Zero's they were on my 328 with xDrive. I have a sloped driveway and when the snow was bad enough it would take a few attempts to get up the driveway. Flash forward to my current car, a rwd 335i with Michelin X-Ice snow tires, and I now get up the driveway in as much as a foot of snow the first attempt.
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      12-16-2016, 10:50 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by ClevelandBeemer View Post
I have and they're ok. That said when I was using the P Zero's they were on my 328 with xDrive. I have a sloped driveway and when the snow was bad enough it would take a few attempts to get up the driveway. Flash forward to my current car, a rwd 335i with Michelin X-Ice snow tires, and I now get up the driveway in as much as a foot of snow the first attempt.
+1

That's pretty much my experience.

Except it was AWD + Continental DWS vs. RWD + Michelin X-Ice Xi3
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      12-16-2016, 01:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo08816 View Post
I've driven on a few of these tires: Michelin X-Ice Xi3, Michelin Pilot Super Sport, Michelin Pilot Sport A/S3+, and Continental DWS.

I disagree with your conclusions that these tires are similar. If those tests weren't done on the same days with measured road surface temperatures, then you're comparing apples to oranges.

The Michelin PSS is better than the A/S 3+ in dry and wet both in terms of traction and behavior in temperatures above 60F. As the road surface temperatures rise, the difference will be even greater.

The Continental DWS and Michelin A/S 3+ don't hold a candle to the Michelin X-Ice Xi3 in sub 40F temperatures - dry, wet, orsnow/ice.

What is generally hard for magazine reviews to convey is how a car/tire behaves once you've transitioned from static friction to dynamic friction. Recovery in less than ideal conditions is much easier with a winter tire in the winter and a summer tire in the summer.
Thanks for the feedback! I realize I'm somewhat comparing apples to oranges and this is why I'm looking for real world test opinions like yours.

It sounds like the temperature ranges for the different tests make a bigger difference than I originally thought.

It sounds like the A/S tires you've had performed the best in the 40-60F range?
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      12-16-2016, 01:44 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by ClevelandBeemer View Post
I have and they're ok. That said when I was using the P Zero's they were on my 328 with xDrive. I have a sloped driveway and when the snow was bad enough it would take a few attempts to get up the driveway. Flash forward to my current car, a rwd 335i with Michelin X-Ice snow tires, and I now get up the driveway in as much as a foot of snow the first attempt.
That sounds perfect for my needs. We only get a handful of really big snows here in the Denver area and when they're bad enough, I just don't drive. It then melts away almost instantly. All I need is to be able to limp home in a few inches in case it starts snowing while I'm at work and be able to make it up all the hills on the way.
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      12-17-2016, 03:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo08816 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouengineer View Post
I've been doing a good amount of research on tires lately and thought I'd share what I found.

I first came across several articles comparing winter, summer, and all-season tires that suggested that I really needed winter tires for winter and summer tires for summer and that all-season tires just didn't do either well at all. So I planned to spend more money to run two sets of tires and accept the low treadwear and poor cold weather performance of the summer tires and generally poor dry/wet/noise of the winter tires throughout winter. However, I later noticed all of those articles were quite old and that the high performance all-season tire had seen revolutionary changes in recent years.

After reading through lots of forum posts, I had settled on UHP all-seasons as the right tire for commuting in the Colorado front range climate (snows a few times, but usually melts off instantly, ice is rarely an issue) since we put winter tires on my wife's Jeep for driving to the mountains. But I was still curious in how these UHP all-seasons actually stacked up against the top winter performance tires as well as the top summer performance tires.

The following chart is created from Tire Rack's tire tests. All tests were done on the same 2014 F30 328i with the all-seasons and summer tires utilizing a 245/40 R18 (the size I will run) and the winter tires being 215/60 R16.

Of note: These tire rack test results are all done not only on different days, but different years for some and so even the objective results from different tests should not be compared directly. However, they can be compared in a broader sense that if the numbers are close, it can be assumed that the performance is not too far off. For instance, the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ held 0.93g of lateral grip vs 0.92g for the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. This does not necessarily show that the all-season version has better lateral grip than the summer tire, but it does show that it is likely not far off.

Some of the things I learned from this comparison are:
  • Stopping distance and lap times in the snow are very comparable between all-season and winter tires. Ice is where the big performance advantage of winter tires lies.
  • Wet performance of UHP all-seasons is now as good and even better than some summer tires.
  • Ride comfort is comparable across all 3, however noise comfort is quite a bit lower for winter tires.
  • Dry grip and lap times of UHP all-seasons compare very well to summers. It seems to me the difference might only be noticeable on the track.
  • Winter tires are awful in wet conditions.

Note: These observations were made from also looking at other tires' test results and not just the best performing ones shown in the spreadsheet.

Also, hoping to see a winter test soon for the Pilot Sport A/S 3+ and Pirelli P-Zero All Season Plus with the new compound. I reported the old values in the spreadsheet for now, but it appears both tires have much improved snow traction. If they can just get close to where some of the other UHP all-seasons are in the snow, then these will be phenomenal options. Particularly the Pirelli, as it otherwise seems to be the perfect tire for my needs (snow braking from 25mph would have to get under 100ft though at a minimum; I do have to drive home in light snow occasionally).

Thoughts?
I've driven on a few of these tires: Michelin X-Ice Xi3, Michelin Pilot Super Sport, Michelin Pilot Sport A/S3+, and Continental DWS.

I disagree with your conclusions that these tires are similar. If those tests weren't done on the same days with measured road surface temperatures, then you're comparing apples to oranges.

The Michelin PSS is better than the A/S 3+ in dry and wet both in terms of traction and behavior in temperatures above 60F. As the road surface temperatures rise, the difference will be even greater.

The Continental DWS and Michelin A/S 3+ don't hold a candle to the Michelin X-Ice Xi3 in sub 40F temperatures - dry, wet, orsnow/ice.

What is generally hard for magazine reviews to convey is how a car/tire behaves once you've transitioned from static friction to dynamic friction. Recovery in less than ideal conditions is much easier with a winter tire in the winter and a summer tire in the summer.
Obviously you have reason to have a summer winter setup. But you are somewhat shafting the performance all seasons here. In dry freezing temperatures and warmer wet conditions is where the all seasons shine.

There is no benefit to Michelin X-ice in dry whether that is not below 20 degrees F. And only then, it would be the rubber compound that is optimized for the extreme colds. With snow and ice, sure I would want them.

Here in CA where our winter storms are heavy rain, PSS are good but not great like the all season PS a/s 3. A quick look at the M3/4 forum has lots of conversation about the inadequacy of MPSS in wet weather - obviously as power goes up it's more obvious. I have driven an M4 in the wet weather we have had recently and I agree. Lots of traction control intervention.

It's a simple trade off: mPss sacrifices a bit of performance in wet and aren't useful in the low 40s to be the best tires in dry warm weather. And MP A/S 3 sacrifice ultimate dry grip for better wet grip, and a compound that works in moderate freezing temperatures. The compound also lasts longer because it's not as soft and grippy
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      12-17-2016, 03:58 PM   #12
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My outlook for winter tires in nj is simple, since it's my family car, I want the best tire for the worst condition - ice. If I am out with the fam, and we get stuck in a storm or it rains then freezes over, I want to make it home.
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      12-17-2016, 06:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goj View Post
Obviously you have reason to have a summer winter setup. But you are somewhat shafting the performance all seasons here. In dry freezing temperatures and warmer wet conditions is where the all seasons shine.

There is no benefit to Michelin X-ice in dry whether that is not below 20 degrees F. And only then, it would be the rubber compound that is optimized for the extreme colds. With snow and ice, sure I would want them.

Here in CA where our winter storms are heavy rain, PSS are good but not great like the all season PS a/s 3. A quick look at the M3/4 forum has lots of conversation about the inadequacy of MPSS in wet weather - obviously as power goes up it's more obvious. I have driven an M4 in the wet weather we have had recently and I agree. Lots of traction control intervention.

It's a simple trade off: mPss sacrifices a bit of performance in wet and aren't useful in the low 40s to be the best tires in dry warm weather. And MP A/S 3 sacrifice ultimate dry grip for better wet grip, and a compound that works in moderate freezing temperatures. The compound also lasts longer because it's not as soft and grippy

You make some good points but I would disagree on the MPSS. They are great in rain. I live in Vancouver and we get serious amounts of rain. I had MPSS on my 135i and they were shockingly good in rain. They had good grip and great resistance to hydroplaning. The tire wear was also impressive for a tire with good summer grip.

I would say the M3/M4 isn't a good indicator of grip in rain. 425hp/406lbs is a lot of power to put down in the rain. I would think a/s tires wouldn't be any improvement and at best only a minor improvement. Those a/s tires would be a big difference in the dry. I would imagine you will get major traction control intervention in dry when you are trying to really put the power down.

You are probably correct about a/s tires for your climate. For Denver I would think a dedicated winter tire is required. If you get winters...no need for all seasons.
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      12-17-2016, 08:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goj View Post
Obviously you have reason to have a summer winter setup. But you are somewhat shafting the performance all seasons here. In dry freezing temperatures and warmer wet conditions is where the all seasons shine.

There is no benefit to Michelin X-ice in dry whether that is not below 20 degrees F. And only then, it would be the rubber compound that is optimized for the extreme colds. With snow and ice, sure I would want them.

Here in CA where our winter storms are heavy rain, PSS are good but not great like the all season PS a/s 3. A quick look at the M3/4 forum has lots of conversation about the inadequacy of MPSS in wet weather - obviously as power goes up it's more obvious. I have driven an M4 in the wet weather we have had recently and I agree. Lots of traction control intervention.

It's a simple trade off: mPss sacrifices a bit of performance in wet and aren't useful in the low 40s to be the best tires in dry warm weather. And MP A/S 3 sacrifice ultimate dry grip for better wet grip, and a compound that works in moderate freezing temperatures. The compound also lasts longer because it's not as soft and grippy

You make some good points but I would disagree on the MPSS. They are great in rain. I live in Vancouver and we get serious amounts of rain. I had MPSS on my 135i and they were shockingly good in rain. They had good grip and great resistance to hydroplaning. The tire wear was also impressive for a tire with good summer grip.

I would say the M3/M4 isn't a good indicator of grip in rain. 425hp/406lbs is a lot of power to put down in the rain. I would think a/s tires wouldn't be any improvement and at best only a minor improvement. Those a/s tires would be a big difference in the dry. I would imagine you will get major traction control intervention in dry when you are trying to really put the power down.

You are probably correct about a/s tires for your climate. For Denver I would think a dedicated winter tire is required. If you get winters...no need for all seasons.
Some members of the M3/4 forum seem to think the performance all season grip in wet is significantly better. Regardless, both tires have their advantages. I am simply saying that the all seasons have their purpose and and do quite well in hot to mild winter weather
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      12-17-2016, 11:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goj View Post
Obviously you have reason to have a summer winter setup. But you are somewhat shafting the performance all seasons here. In dry freezing temperatures and warmer wet conditions is where the all seasons shine.

There is no benefit to Michelin X-ice in dry whether that is not below 20 degrees F. And only then, it would be the rubber compound that is optimized for the extreme colds. With snow and ice, sure I would want them.

Here in CA where our winter storms are heavy rain, PSS are good but not great like the all season PS a/s 3. A quick look at the M3/4 forum has lots of conversation about the inadequacy of MPSS in wet weather - obviously as power goes up it's more obvious. I have driven an M4 in the wet weather we have had recently and I agree. Lots of traction control intervention.

It's a simple trade off: mPss sacrifices a bit of performance in wet and aren't useful in the low 40s to be the best tires in dry warm weather. And MP A/S 3 sacrifice ultimate dry grip for better wet grip, and a compound that works in moderate freezing temperatures. The compound also lasts longer because it's not as soft and grippy
All seasons shine in no weather conditions. The only area where they shine is convenience of having one set of tires.

My MPSS have lasted 20+k and they're still going. That's including 3-4 HPDEs as well.

MPSS is still superior to the A/S3+ in the wet in > 55F temperatures. This is based on my experience with using both tires.

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Originally Posted by goj View Post
Some members of the M3/4 forum seem to think the performance all season grip in wet is significantly better. Regardless, both tires have their advantages. I am simply saying that the all seasons have their purpose and and do quite well in hot to mild winter weather
You go to any internet forum and you can always find some members that think a certain thing, but it's certainly not the vast majority. There's no shortage of people that will cheerlead purchases they have already made.
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      12-18-2016, 01:52 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Polo08816 View Post
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Originally Posted by goj View Post
Obviously you have reason to have a summer winter setup. But you are somewhat shafting the performance all seasons here. In dry freezing temperatures and warmer wet conditions is where the all seasons shine.

There is no benefit to Michelin X-ice in dry whether that is not below 20 degrees F. And only then, it would be the rubber compound that is optimized for the extreme colds. With snow and ice, sure I would want them.

Here in CA where our winter storms are heavy rain, PSS are good but not great like the all season PS a/s 3. A quick look at the M3/4 forum has lots of conversation about the inadequacy of MPSS in wet weather - obviously as power goes up it's more obvious. I have driven an M4 in the wet weather we have had recently and I agree. Lots of traction control intervention.

It's a simple trade off: mPss sacrifices a bit of performance in wet and aren't useful in the low 40s to be the best tires in dry warm weather. And MP A/S 3 sacrifice ultimate dry grip for better wet grip, and a compound that works in moderate freezing temperatures. The compound also lasts longer because it's not as soft and grippy
All seasons shine in no weather conditions. The only area where they shine is convenience of having one set of tires.

My MPSS have lasted 20+k and they're still going. That's including 3-4 HPDEs as well.

MPSS is still superior to the A/S3+ in the wet in > 55F temperatures. This is based on my experience with using both tires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goj View Post
Some members of the M3/4 forum seem to think the performance all season grip in wet is significantly better. Regardless, both tires have their advantages. I am simply saying that the all seasons have their purpose and and do quite well in hot to mild winter weather
You go to any internet forum and you can always find some members that think a certain thing, but it's certainly not the vast majority. There's no shortage of people that will cheerlead purchases they have already made.
Don't be so melodramatic. All season performance like the michelins are exceptional all year in the Bay Area. Even if they aren't optimized in any particular season. That's the point. They're good in any season and last longer.

Simply you are not giving all seasons the credit where it's due. Also you probably have t driven an M4 or M3 in super wet weather. When the power goes up. These all seasons you say shine in no season really do shine.

Sorry but you are simply just one more of those Internet opinions that you mentioned...if your opinion was true, all season performance tires wouldn't sell

Edit: also, the only time your beloved MPSS shine over the all seasons is on a track or autocross course. There's no way any daily driver needs the additional grip over the AS's
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      12-18-2016, 08:21 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by goj View Post
Don't be so melodramatic. All season performance like the michelins are exceptional all year in the Bay Area. Even if they aren't optimized in any particular season. That's the point. They're good in any season and last longer.

Simply you are not giving all seasons the credit where it's due. Also you probably have t driven an M4 or M3 in super wet weather. When the power goes up. These all seasons you say shine in no season really do shine.

Sorry but you are simply just one more of those Internet opinions that you mentioned...if your opinion was true, all season performance tires wouldn't sell

Edit: also, the only time your beloved MPSS shine over the all seasons is on a track or autocross course. There's no way any daily driver needs the additional grip over the AS's
My experience, or "opinion", encompasses HPDE experience as well as driving/training in a law enforcement capacity. I drive a government vehicle with all season tires on a daily basis in a variety of conditions. I've had cars with ultra high performance all season tires like the Conti DWS and Michelin Pilot Sport A/S3+. I've also had the same cars with winter tires such as the Michelin X-Ice Xi3 and summer tires such as the MPSS.

As power goes up, the traction deficit of a tire UHPAS tire goes up as well which is contrary to what you're claiming. The main benefit of tires optimized for certain weather conditions is how the tire allows the car to behavior under dynamic traction.

All season tires sell because they are convenient. I've also noticed that friends who live in incredibly expensive areas (NYC, Bay Area, etc.) oftentimes don't have storage space for an extra set of tires/wheels for each one of their cars because they're paying some outrageous rent for a closet-spaced place to live.

http://blog.tirerack.com/blog/bens-b...tires-for-rain

Quote:
Traveling in the rain can be a nerve-wracking experience without the right tires. A tire with superior wet weather traction can be a big safety benefit for drivers who need to travel at speed in wet conditions.

I often hear customers say, "It rains a lot where I live, so I need to have an all-season tire." While the name all-season implies that a tire might be the best tire for every season, the reality is that the compound and tread pattern of an all-season tire is actually a compromise between wet, dry and snow capability. Each of these conditions have different requirements, so an all-season tire actually gives away some wet and dry traction to gain light snow traction.

Summer tires are the ultimate wet weather performers. They have sticky compounds to grip wet pavement and tread patterns designed to let water flow through and away from the contact patch. The current class leaders in wet and overall traction are the Michelin Pilot Super Sport and Bridgestone Potenza S-04.

Two general notes about wet traction apply to pretty much any set of tires: Tread depth is essential to good wet weather performance. We have an entire tech article dedicated to illustrating how important adequate tread depth is when encountering wet conditions. Second, tire inflation is also a vital component to proper tire performance in wet weather and you can find in depth information as well as the meaning behind the image at the top left by reading "Air Pressure vs. Wet Performance."

If you live in a warm climate and need the best wet traction, definitely consider a summer tire. Regardless of where you are or what type of tire you have, if rain is in the forecast make sure that your tread depth and tire inflation are up to spec. - See more at: http://blog.tirerack.com/blog/bens-b....EOahqhBc.dpuf

Last edited by Polo08816; 12-18-2016 at 08:32 AM.
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      12-19-2016, 12:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo08816 View Post
My experience, or "opinion", encompasses HPDE experience as well as driving/training in a law enforcement capacity. I drive a government vehicle with all season tires on a daily basis in a variety of conditions. I've had cars with ultra high performance all season tires like the Conti DWS and Michelin Pilot Sport A/S3+. I've also had the same cars with winter tires such as the Michelin X-Ice Xi3 and summer tires such as the MPSS.

As power goes up, the traction deficit of a tire UHPAS tire goes up as well which is contrary to what you're claiming. The main benefit of tires optimized for certain weather conditions is how the tire allows the car to behavior under dynamic traction.

All season tires sell because they are convenient. I've also noticed that friends who live in incredibly expensive areas (NYC, Bay Area, etc.) oftentimes don't have storage space for an extra set of tires/wheels for each one of their cars because they're paying some outrageous rent for a closet-spaced place to live.

http://blog.tirerack.com/blog/bens-b...tires-for-rain
I think you're not quite giving enough credit to the newer UHP all-seasons. The major problem with that link (and every article I could find comparing all-seasons, winter, and summer tires) is the date. They are all before this new batch of UHP A/S came out. If you read the new comparison tests of these tires, it really sounds like the performance gap in varying conditions has shrunk dramatically. How much so is what I'm trying to analyze with this review.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=216
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      12-19-2016, 01:27 PM   #19
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http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

OP/OU: Not sure if you read this test (from a few years ago obviously) during your research. It's quite clear from this (and I very much doubt that anything has changed since) that winter tires are far superior than all-seasons (of any type) in snow and ice.

IMHO, the last several posts, sniping at UHP versus Summer tires is a bit OT, especially considering the timeliness (beginning of winter) and it's original purpose (as I see it). While I (and my son, who has gone to AS/3 on his 335i coupe) agree with the premise "can't use the increment of performance" that comes with Max Performance Summer over UHP, it's a bit silly. Y'all do know that the only standard that "all season" needs to meet is "25% open tread"? Many summer tires meet or come close to that metric and could be considered all-season tires.

Also interesting in the test I note above is that two different all-season tires (AS and MXM H4) had quite different wet road performance, which kind of is a commentary (and not in a good way) on the discussions on wet vs. dry braking you're having.
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      12-19-2016, 01:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

OP/OU: Not sure if you read this test (from a few years ago obviously) during your research. It's quite clear from this (and I very much doubt that anything has changed since) that winter tires are far superior than all-seasons (of any type) in snow and ice.

IMHO, the last several posts, sniping at UHP versus Summer tires is a bit OT, especially considering the timeliness (beginning of winter) and it's original purpose (as I see it). While I (and my son, who has gone to AS/3 on his 335i coupe) agree with the premise "can't use the increment of performance" that comes with Max Performance Summer over UHP, it's a bit silly. Y'all do know that the only standard that "all season" needs to meet is "25% open tread"? Many summer tires meet or come close to that metric and could be considered all-season tires.

Also interesting in the test I note above is that two different all-season tires (AS and MXM H4) had quite different wet road performance, which kind of is a commentary (and not in a good way) on the discussions on wet vs. dry braking you're having.
I did. Again, way too old. That one is from 2009.

From all the newest tire tests I've been reading (most all from tire rack as everything else seems to be dated), I really think this discussion needs to be revisited. Would be particularly nice to see some apples to apples comparisons done.
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      12-19-2016, 03:57 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ouengineer View Post
I did. Again, way too old. That one is from 2009.

From all the newest tire tests I've been reading (most all from tire rack as everything else seems to be dated), I really think this discussion needs to be revisited. Would be particularly nice to see some apples to apples comparisons done.
I've been following tire tests for 20 years. Not much changed between the previous tests to the one I quoted. I very much doubt that anything will have changed in the broad categories of those four that were surveyed (winter, performance winter, all-season, hp all-season) in the intervening 7 years. After all, all the tire manufacturers are advancing at pretty much the same rate, for all the categories they sell. Yeah, maybe UHP and Max Performance Summer may have gotten a bit closer, but that market is just as small or smaller as the snow tire market (in the US.)

It doesn't really matter: look at all the guys buying the cheapest possible rubber to put on their BMWs with big, fat wheels. They don't care about "performance", only looks. That's why Hankook and others in the low-price market sell; has little to do with the metrics you are worrying about in objective terms.
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      12-19-2016, 06:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ouengineer View Post
I think you're not quite giving enough credit to the newer UHP all-seasons. The major problem with that link (and every article I could find comparing all-seasons, winter, and summer tires) is the date. They are all before this new batch of UHP A/S came out. If you read the new comparison tests of these tires, it really sounds like the performance gap in varying conditions has shrunk dramatically. How much so is what I'm trying to analyze with this review.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=216
...except for the fact that I have Michelin Pilot Sport A/3+ (Plus) on a current vehicle that I own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
I've been following tire tests for 20 years. Not much changed between the previous tests to the one I quoted. I very much doubt that anything will have changed in the broad categories of those four that were surveyed (winter, performance winter, all-season, hp all-season) in the intervening 7 years. After all, all the tire manufacturers are advancing at pretty much the same rate, for all the categories they sell. Yeah, maybe UHP and Max Performance Summer may have gotten a bit closer, but that market is just as small or smaller as the snow tire market (in the US.)

It doesn't really matter: look at all the guys buying the cheapest possible rubber to put on their BMWs with big, fat wheels. They don't care about "performance", only looks. That's why Hankook and others in the low-price market sell; has little to do with the metrics you are worrying about in objective terms.
+1. Pretty much spot on.

If all seasons have come to a point where there's a tire that could replace summer tires and winter tires functionally, there would be no point to sell either of those tires.

Last edited by Polo08816; 12-19-2016 at 06:49 PM.
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