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      10-30-2012, 10:19 AM   #1
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I have an E90 loaner today.

I definitely miss hydraulic power steering.
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      10-30-2012, 10:22 AM   #2
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      10-30-2012, 10:30 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by stampchez View Post
I definitely miss hydraulic power steering.
If I regretted the car I spent $50,000 on I'd go buy something else.

BJ
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      10-30-2012, 10:33 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
If I regretted the car I spent $50,000 on I'd go buy something else.

BJ
Where did I say that I regretted it?
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      10-30-2012, 01:39 PM   #5
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BJ has been known to be a tad confrontational on the boards, you can choose to ignore it or play along, depending on your mood

I agree on the feel of hydraulic steering, but it's looking more and more like only the M cars will get it into the future
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      10-30-2012, 02:33 PM   #6
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BJ has been known to be a tad confrontational on the boards, you can choose to ignore it or play along, depending on your mood

I agree on the feel of hydraulic steering, but it's looking more and more like only the M cars will get it into the future
We can thank the high price of gasoline and the ever-more-aggressive fuel standards coming into effect globally.

Unfortunately, as the WSJ (apologies for the indirect link), Car and Driver, and many others lamented a few years ago, we truly are living at the tail end of the horsepower era.

It will be interesting to see if BMW can maintain its "ultimate driving machine" heritage over the next few years. One thing's for certain: four bangers, auto-start-stop, and the electrification of previously hydraulic components are here to stay, as are ridiculously tight allocations for the less fuel-efficient models in the lineup.
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      10-30-2012, 02:57 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnerJi View Post
We can thank the high price of gasoline and the ever-more-aggressive fuel standards coming into effect globally.

Unfortunately, as the WSJ (apologies for the indirect link), Car and Driver, and many others lamented a few years ago, we truly are living at the tail end of the horsepower era.

It will be interesting to see if BMW can maintain its "ultimate driving machine" heritage over the next few years. One thing's for certain: four bangers, auto-start-stop, and the electrification of previously hydraulic components are here to stay, as are ridiculously tight allocations for the less fuel-efficient models in the lineup.
People also thought performance was going the way of the Dodo bird in the 70s when emissions standards and gas shortages struck. What happened? Cars are more efficient and powerful than ever.

Electric power steering systems are still in their early generations; auto manufacturers will figure it out. Efficiency standards have already greatly increased and performance hasn't fallen by the wayside (N20 anyone?)

Rumors of performance's demise are greatly exaggerated.
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      10-30-2012, 03:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnerJi View Post
We can thank the high price of gasoline and the ever-more-aggressive fuel standards coming into effect globally.

Unfortunately, as the WSJ (apologies for the indirect link), Car and Driver, and many others lamented a few years ago, we truly are living at the tail end of the horsepower era.

It will be interesting to see if BMW can maintain its "ultimate driving machine" heritage over the next few years. One thing's for certain: four bangers, auto-start-stop, and the electrification of previously hydraulic components are here to stay, as are ridiculously tight allocations for the less fuel-efficient models in the lineup.
Why do you say this? BMW just introduced a car with more power and greater fuel efficiency than the previous model. Power is not going down, engines are getting smaller, turbos are increasing and efficiency is growing.
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      10-30-2012, 04:16 PM   #9
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Why do you say this? BMW just introduced a car with more power and greater fuel efficiency than the previous model. Power is not going down, engines are getting smaller, turbos are increasing and efficiency is growing.
The 90s and most of the last decade saw truly incredible increases in HP, particularly at the high-end (sports cars). Those increases have dramatically slowed down as new fuel standards begin to take effect.

In the US for example, by 2022, a car the size of the BMW 3-series will have to average 50 mpg across BMW's entire fleet. There are more efficiency gains to be had, but the laws of physics provide an absolute limit to that efficiency (energy density of gasoline / diesel is fixed, for example) and at some point diminishing returns start to kick in.

At the same time, governments are raising the bar on vehicle safety, which tends to result in increased weight (or at the very least--makes it much harder to cut weight). The new frontal offset crash test is just one example.

I certainly hope I'm wrong, but it's going to be a major challenge for BMW and other manufacturers to raise their fuel efficiency so high in just ten year's time without sacrificing power.

Even if they pull it off, it's likely that the era of expecting each new volume model (like the 328) to contain significantly more HP than the previous generation is likely over.
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      10-30-2012, 04:30 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by stampchez View Post
I definitely miss hydraulic power steering.
While I was prepping my former E90 for sale a couple of weeks ago, I had the privilege of driving both the E90 and F30 rather frequently. I became quickly accustomed to the F30's electric steering, when I drove the E90, it was as if the power steering failed - only for a few moments, but the difference between them is massive.

I do like the F30's but after a couple of mins back in the E90, it was business as usual.

The E90 has been sold and is off my hands now. Moving on with the F30.
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      10-30-2012, 05:53 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
If I regretted the car I spent $50,000 on I'd go buy something else.

BJ
You live in a binary world.
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      10-31-2012, 03:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnerJi View Post
The 90s and most of the last decade saw truly incredible increases in HP, particularly at the high-end (sports cars). Those increases have dramatically slowed down as new fuel standards begin to take effect.

In the US for example, by 2022, a car the size of the BMW 3-series will have to average 50 mpg across BMW's entire fleet. There are more efficiency gains to be had, but the laws of physics provide an absolute limit to that efficiency (energy density of gasoline / diesel is fixed, for example) and at some point diminishing returns start to kick in.

At the same time, governments are raising the bar on vehicle safety, which tends to result in increased weight (or at the very least--makes it much harder to cut weight). The new frontal offset crash test is just one example.

I certainly hope I'm wrong, but it's going to be a major challenge for BMW and other manufacturers to raise their fuel efficiency so high in just ten year's time without sacrificing power.

Even if they pull it off, it's likely that the era of expecting each new volume model (like the 328) to contain significantly more HP than the previous generation is likely over.
I don't agree that HP increases have dramatically slowed. Take the N20. 2/3 the displacement of the N52 and 10 more (rated) HP and 55 more ft/lb of torque plus a huge increase in fuel economy. The number of new muscle cars in the US is rapidly increasing. Boss 302 Mustangs and Shelby's, ZL1 Camaro's, 270 HP Sonata's, the new Focus ST and the next generation GTI to start with.

I understand what you are saying about CAFE regulations and to even out these models there will be more and more smaller cars with weaker engines that get great mileage as well as more hybrid and pure electric cars. However, as long as there is a market and profit in producing powerful cars, they are not going anywhere.

I'm reminded of the time in the 1970's when cars became slow because of increased emission controls. We did not have the technology to provide power with efficiency. Times are different and the market is strong for fast cars. IMO it's amazing that my 230 hp E90 328i with MT gets 31 mpg on the highway.
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      10-31-2012, 04:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I don't agree that HP increases have dramatically slowed. Take the N20. 2/3 the displacement of the N52 and 10 more (rated) HP and 55 more ft/lb of torque plus a huge increase in fuel economy. The number of new muscle cars in the US is rapidly increasing. Boss 302 Mustangs and Shelby's, ZL1 Camaro's, 270 HP Sonata's, the new Focus ST and the next generation GTI to start with.

I understand what you are saying about CAFE regulations and to even out these models there will be more and more smaller cars with weaker engines that get great mileage as well as more hybrid and pure electric cars. However, as long as there is a market and profit in producing powerful cars, they are not going anywhere.

I'm reminded of the time in the 1970's when cars became slow because of increased emission controls. We did not have the technology to provide power with efficiency. Times are different and the market is strong for fast cars. IMO it's amazing that my 230 hp E90 328i with MT gets 31 mpg on the highway.
It's interesting that you bring up the 1970s. The really biting fuel efficiency regulations have not yet taken effect, so it's entirely possible that the end of this decade looks a bit like the 1970s! I certainly hope not, and that we have the technology to stay ahead of the increasing fuel-efficiency regulations. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Consider this, however:
The F30 raised highway fuel efficiency to 34 mpg with MT (33 with AT). That's almost a 10% improvement, while managing to increase HP modestly, and was considered quite an accomplishment.

In order to meet fuel efficiency standards that are currently on the books, BMW will have to find a way of raising the 328's efficiency by approximately 10% every other year for the next 10 years. That's five separate increases of 10%.

Considering that a typical engine has to be amortized over a number of years, even if that is technically feasible, it's going to be awfully challenging to pull off.


Whatever happens we're going to see many changes in the market, from a greater focus on highly fuel efficient cars at the low-end to try and balance overall fleet fuel economy, perhaps to alliances or even a merger with another manufacturer to given them higher volume of more fuel-efficient cars, to perhaps even more restrictive volumes for less fuel-efficient models like the 335.
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      10-31-2012, 04:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnerJi View Post
The 90s and most of the last decade saw truly incredible increases in HP, particularly at the high-end (sports cars). Those increases have dramatically slowed down as new fuel standards begin to take effect.

In the US for example, by 2022, a car the size of the BMW 3-series will have to average 50 mpg across BMW's entire fleet. There are more efficiency gains to be had, but the laws of physics provide an absolute limit to that efficiency (energy density of gasoline / diesel is fixed, for example) and at some point diminishing returns start to kick in.

At the same time, governments are raising the bar on vehicle safety, which tends to result in increased weight (or at the very least--makes it much harder to cut weight). The new frontal offset crash test is just one example.

I certainly hope I'm wrong, but it's going to be a major challenge for BMW and other manufacturers to raise their fuel efficiency so high in just ten year's time without sacrificing power.

Even if they pull it off, it's likely that the era of expecting each new volume model (like the 328) to contain significantly more HP than the previous generation is likely over.
Sorry, duplicate post.
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      10-31-2012, 04:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnerJi View Post
It's interesting that you bring up the 1970s. The really biting fuel efficiency regulations have not yet taken effect, so it's entirely possible that the end of this decade looks a bit like the 1970s! I certainly hope not, and that we have the technology to stay ahead of the increasing fuel-efficiency regulations. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Consider this, however:
The F30 raised highway fuel efficiency to 34 mpg with MT (33 with AT). That's almost a 10% improvement, while managing to increase HP modestly, and was considered quite an accomplishment.

In order to meet fuel efficiency standards that are currently on the books, BMW will have to find a way of raising the 328's efficiency by approximately 10% every other year for the next 10 years. That's five separate increases of 10%.

Considering that a typical engine has to be amortized over a number of years, even if that is technically feasible, it's going to be awfully challenging to pull off.


Whatever happens we're going to see many changes in the market, from a greater focus on highly fuel efficient cars at the low-end to try and balance overall fleet fuel economy, perhaps to alliances or even a merger with another manufacturer to given them higher volume of more fuel-efficient cars, to perhaps even more restrictive volumes for less fuel-efficient models like the 335.
It will be the focus on highly efficient cars at the lower end that will be the key IMO. Of course all cars will still need to become more efficient and I expect that a car like the 3 series which is their largest seller will need to average 35-40 mpg at least.
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      10-31-2012, 04:36 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
It will be the focus on highly efficient cars at the lower end that will be the key IMO. Of course all cars will still need to become more efficient and I expect that a car like the 3 series which is their largest seller will need to average 35-40 mpg at least.
Already well into the 40 & 50mpg figures in Europe.

Basically 2.0-litre diesel engines, taking the lions share of the market in 3 and 5-series. Giving over 50mpg (UK gallons). Some into the 60mpg range.

Some models it is hard to find any 6-cylinder petrol engines these days. Fuel costs and tax are have pushed this much faster than any car maker could have hoped.

I'll find some of the latest diesel sales percentages, to show how small the larger petrol engine sales are in the UK.

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      10-31-2012, 05:20 PM   #17
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As far as I can check these figures are correct, as published in DieselCar.

UK Sales figures for 2011
7-series sales were 1,471 of which 1,379 were diesel.
5-series sales were 21,703 of which 20,665 were diesel.
3-series sales were 42,471 of which 32,895 were diesel.
X3 sales were 5,100 of which just 2 were petrol.
X5 sales were 5,459 of which 5,363 were diesel.
Even something like the Jaguar XJ, with 2,078 sales, 1,761 were still diesel.

From UK DTI Vehicle Licensing Statistics 2011
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The average CO2 emissions from cars newly registered in the year fell by over 4 per cent from 2010 to an average figure of 138 g/km.
Both the BMW 3 and 5-series top selling models in the UK, the standard 520d/320d are well below that average figure. The ED models doing even better, coming in at (520d ED) 119 g/km & (320d ED) 109 g/km.

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      10-31-2012, 05:56 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
As far as I can check these figures are correct, as published in DieselCar.

UK Sales figures for 2011
7-series sales were 1,471 of which 1,379 were diesel.
5-series sales were 21,703 of which 20,665 were diesel.
3-series sales were 42,471 of which 32,895 were diesel.
X3 sales were 5,100 of which just 2 were petrol.
X5 sales were 5,459 of which 5,363 were diesel.
Even something like the Jaguar XJ, with 2,078 sales, 1,761 were still diesel.

From UK DTI Vehicle Licensing Statistics 2011


Both the BMW 3 and 5-series top selling models in the UK, the standard 520d/320d are well below that average figure. The ED models doing even better, coming in at (520d ED) 119 g/km & (320d ED) 109 g/km.

HighlandPete

That's incredible, assuming those numbers are accurate!
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      10-31-2012, 09:15 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by stampchez View Post
I definitely miss hydraulic power steering.
Not me.

I replaced my 2006 E90 330i with an MY12 ZSL 335i. It was in the shop overnight to work on the brakes. I was given an MY11 E90 328xi loaner.

When I got my car back, I said to myself, "There's nothing -- nothing -- in the E90 I miss. Not the interior, not the styling, not the steering, not the first-gen RFTs, not the N52."

When the E90 was new, the forums were full of people bemoaning the loss of the E46's "BMWness." Now, their successors rue the loss of the E90's "perfect steering."

But the fact is the F30 is a BMW in every way -- and a better BMW 3 than the E90 was.

Being a neo-Luddite seems to come naturally to BMW fans.
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      10-31-2012, 10:34 PM   #20
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I also think that BMW's decision to go to electric is crap, though I am convinced that some coding should be able to get me 95% back to where I want to be.....

And I have no use for the E9x series either. It is no coincidence that I waited for the F30 before getting a new one.
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      11-01-2012, 04:31 AM   #21
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Sorry but I drove the F30 320, 328 and 335's (sport and Msport) and none compare in steering feel to the E90. I am now to the point of adding Audi to my shopping list to replace our E90 lease next year.
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      11-01-2012, 08:54 AM   #22
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Sorry but I drove the F30 320, 328 and 335's (sport and Msport) and none compare in steering feel to the E90. I am now to the point of adding Audi to my shopping list to replace our E90 lease next year.
Audi's steering is not any better than the F30's. but if you are going to have numb steering anyways, might as well save a few bucks.
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