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      11-15-2012, 09:20 AM   #1
RobUK
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Question Auto + handbrake = roll

I have noticed that when I park the car on a slight incline, put it in park and apply the handbrake, when I take my foot off the footbrake the car rolls a good inch or two. Is that normal, are other with the auto box finding this?

I expect a tiny bit of movement, but am surprised by how much this car moves. Wouldn't say it's a dangerous amount, but very noticeable. On my E81 (also auto) plus a couple of other autos I've owned, didn't get anywhere near as much roll.

PS, the car's a Sport auto, but am sure that won't make a difference.
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      11-15-2012, 09:37 AM   #2
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I think the 330d I had on test last week was the same - and I have seen with other autos in the past (but not all)
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      11-15-2012, 09:41 AM   #3
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I used to get this on my 335d, and was told it's normal.

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      11-15-2012, 10:00 AM   #4
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Always happens in auto cars in Park because it's just the drivetrain locking up. Shouldn't happen with the handbrake on though since that's a mechanical stop on the wheels. At least it is in most cars - maybe the BMW is a different sort of handbrake.
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      11-15-2012, 10:36 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroAl View Post
Always happens in auto cars in Park because it's just the drivetrain locking up. Shouldn't happen with the handbrake on though since that's a mechanical stop on the wheels. At least it is in most cars - maybe the BMW is a different sort of handbrake.
Normal on our BMW cars with the mechanical drum handbrake.

Varies according to adjustment, but the reason.... the brake shoes have a common stop block, from which the brake shoes move outwards on application, causing a clearance, which means there is radial movement.

Wheels can therefore rock 'to and fro' within that clearance once the handbrake is applied.

Depends on how and where we stop, in relationship with applying Park on the 'box, whether we really notice it or not.

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      11-15-2012, 11:54 AM   #6
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I have not noticed this with the loaner, however I have not really parked on any real steep inclines.
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      11-15-2012, 01:18 PM   #7
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I've never known any car ever move on a handbrake. Ever.

I'm sure that would defeat he object. Let's take a scenario: you're doing a hillstart and someone's got a Rolls Royce 2cm behind you. no car company in the world designs a handbrake with "wibble" built in so you can rock back and forth within a tolerance. You apply the handbrake and the car doesn't move. I find it hard to believe that BMW designed a retarded system different from the rest of the Universe
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      11-15-2012, 05:01 PM   #8
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My 328 auto also rolls.
Whenever I stop, say at traffic lights I put the auto gearbox in P.
I only apply the handbrake when I finish my journey.
Am I causing wear and tear on the auto transmission ?
The salesman told me that he always uses the P when he stops and not the handbrake.I assumed the P was just like an electronic handbrake.
Am I wrong ?
I would like to emphasise that the car rolls identically, whetherI put the handbrake on or whether I press the P button on the auto gearshift.
That's why I assumed P was an electronic handbrake.

Last edited by Isow; 11-15-2012 at 05:15 PM.
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      11-15-2012, 05:41 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroAl View Post
I've never known any car ever move on a handbrake. Ever.

I'm sure that would defeat he object. Let's take a scenario: you're doing a hillstart and someone's got a Rolls Royce 2cm behind you. no car company in the world designs a handbrake with "wibble" built in so you can rock back and forth within a tolerance. You apply the handbrake and the car doesn't move. I find it hard to believe that BMW designed a retarded system different from the rest of the Universe
You have obviously not lived with BMW cars. This parking brake setup has hardly changed in design since my first E12 528i in 1976. My F11 5-series with its 'electric' parking brake, is the first BMW I've ever used not to have this movement.

In fact it is quite a clever design on how it works as a drum brake, and how it is adjusted, but does need to be kept in good adjustment to keep the 'rock' to a minimum. It isn't a big amount of movement, but is there, has to be due to the way it works. And it increases as the shoes wear, until adjusted again.

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      11-15-2012, 05:48 PM   #10
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[quote=Isow;13002589]Am I causing wear and tear on the auto transmission ?
The salesman told me that he always uses the P when he stops and not the handbrake.I assumed the P was just like an electronic handbrake.
Am I wrong ?/QUOTE]

Yes, P is not any form of handbrake, it is just locking the gearbox. Fine on the flat but on a hill it will put strain on the locking pin in the gearbox so you should also use the handbrake.
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      11-15-2012, 05:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isow View Post
My 328 auto also rolls.
Whenever I stop, say at traffic lights I put the auto gearbox in P.
I only apply the handbrake when I finish my journey.
Am I causing wear and tear on the auto transmission ?
The salesman told me that he always uses the P when he stops and not the handbrake.I assumed the P was just like an electronic handbrake.
Am I wrong ?
I would like to emphasise that the car rolls identically, whetherI put the handbrake on or whether I press the P button on the auto gearshift.
That's why I assumed P was an electronic handbrake.
The gearbox has a kind of pawl mechanisn that engages to prevent driveshaft rotation, so you are loading the drivetrain if parking on it on a slope.

When I park I always (due to habit with auto gearboxes, not just BMW) engage the parking brake, let the parking 'weight' sit on that, then engage 'park' to prevent loading the gearbox. Previous generations of auto gearboxes have had have issues with premature wear in the pawl, if used to park the car with load on it. You can sense it is loaded.... when you engage 'drive' to move off and it "clunks", sometimes quite violently, as the load is released.

How strong the mechanism is in the ZF 8-speed boxes, we are yet to find out.

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      11-15-2012, 06:03 PM   #12
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Thanks for the reply.
What's a pawl ?
I have never had the gearbox clunk when it moves off on a slope when I move the gearshift from P to D.
But, and it is a big but, maybe I am getting confused with the noise the engine makes in Stop/Start mode.
Why does the car roll when put into P on a slope ?

Last edited by Isow; 11-15-2012 at 06:09 PM.
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      11-15-2012, 06:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isow View Post
Thanks for the reply.
What's a pawl ?

Why does the car roll when put into P on a slope ?
Pin, pawl, plunger... imagine a pin moving into a hole or slot in a shaft, preventing the shaft turning, that is the function of the 'park' mechanism.

Once you engage that lock mechanism, the driveshaft out of the gearbox doesn't rotate, but the weight on the shaft from the wheels trying to rotate on a slope, is 'wound up' by the suspension and any tolerances in the mechanical components between that shaft lock and the footprint of the tyres. The rear of the car will likely rise or fall due to that action as well. So the car doesn't exactly roll, but feels a bit like it.

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      11-15-2012, 08:12 PM   #14
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So it seems like other F30's do this although not sure if it's normal. Certainly sounds like the recommended sequence is to apply the handbrake before before putting the car in Park and then taking your foot off the brake pedal.

One thing I haven't tried is stopping on an incline, putting the car in neutral then applying the handbrake and seeing how much is does/doesn't roll.
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      11-16-2012, 03:55 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobUK View Post
So it seems like other F30's do this although not sure if it's normal. Certainly sounds like the recommended sequence is to apply the handbrake before before putting the car in Park and then taking your foot off the brake pedal.

One thing I haven't tried is stopping on an incline, putting the car in neutral then applying the handbrake and seeing how much is does/doesn't roll.
It wouldn't be normal if:

1. The handbrake lever needs excessive movement to engage. What have you got, about 6 - 8 clicks to full engagement, if you count them?
2. The parking brake actually slips/creeps when it is engaged.

The incline test may show some roll, but the brake isn't slipping. Say there is a 2mm clearance internally from the shoes to anchor/stop, once the brake is applied, that translates to about 6 to 8mm wheel rotation at the tyre footprint. It feels a lot worse than it actually is.

Having been through the adjustment process many times through the years, with a wheel jacked up and parking brake adjusted correctly, the wheel only rotates a few millimetres when checked.

Applying the parking brake on a slope, with the footbake engaged, and then releasing the foot brake it can 'feel' as if the car moves more than it really does.

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      11-16-2012, 04:08 AM   #16
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I still don't believe you
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      11-16-2012, 04:18 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroAl View Post
I still don't believe you
Welcome to the world of 'quirky' (or should I say "individual") BMW designs.

While BMW have insisted on keeping parking function away from the disc pads we have had this issue. E-brakes are the answer, but corrupts the purity of the disc brake function.

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      11-16-2012, 04:19 AM   #18
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I'm soooo getting a Mondeo instead
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      03-06-2013, 05:00 PM   #19
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Found this thread when researching the handbrake issue.

I just picked up my car on Monday and even on relatively level ground in neutral, car rolls forward way too much with handbrake at 4 clicks.

I didn't see how far it would roll for fear of hitting the bollard but it was more than 20cm for sure.

I will ask my sales guy to have it adjusted. I park in some very hilly areas at times and would like to know my handbrake has more travel.

Even though I have the auto I don't like the stress I am placing on the parking pin
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      03-06-2013, 05:26 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Welcome to the world of 'quirky' (or should I say "individual") BMW designs.

While BMW have insisted on keeping parking function away from the disc pads we have had this issue. E-brakes are the answer, but corrupts the purity of the disc brake function.

HighlandPete
This "feature" has really irritated me on every BMW I've owned over the last 25 years. I find it quite embarrassing when I have passengers and the car lurches forward or backward an inch or two after I've applied the handbrake and then take my foot off the foot brake. The amount of slack in the mechanism is noticeably worse in my F30 than it was in my old E46 after 10 years and 120k miles.
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      03-06-2013, 05:52 PM   #21
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I have noticed this on my manual. It's a strange experience to have the handbrake fully on and feel the car move.

It's only slight, but noticeable..
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      03-07-2013, 03:49 AM   #22
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perfectly normal.. all bmw's i have owned/driven do it.. as did my old discovery. I was told originally it was to aid towing ability..
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