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      04-25-2016, 11:50 AM   #1
PETERYanni
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Handling loss

My car stock with Bridgestone Potenza RFT on 19" used to handle better. Now am running H&R Sport Springs on 20" wheels wrapped with Pirelli PZero Nero tires. My car used to handle better stock, is this true or am just messing with myself
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      04-25-2016, 05:40 PM   #2
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Do you still have OEM shocks? Is your car RWD or xDrive?
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      04-25-2016, 08:28 PM   #3
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Sometimes "Sport" springs aren't so sporty. If they are progressive, take away too much compression travel and/or higher rates than the stock struts/shocks and handle, you will have a worse handling car.
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      04-25-2016, 09:15 PM   #4
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I do have OEM shocks, i am RWD
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      04-26-2016, 11:29 AM   #5
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What exactly do you mean by handle. Do you have more understeer, more oversteer? Expand on what you think has changed.
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      04-27-2016, 08:02 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PETERYanni
My car stock with Bridgestone Potenza RFT on 19" used to handle better. Now am running H&R Sport Springs on 20" wheels wrapped with Pirelli PZero Nero tires. My car used to handle better stock, is this true or am just messing with myself
Was OEM tires run flat? If yes and you switched to non run flat tires, you lost some sway. Car will feel like you installed skinny sway bars.
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      04-27-2016, 10:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul223
Quote:
Originally Posted by PETERYanni
My car stock with Bridgestone Potenza RFT on 19" used to handle better. Now am running H&R Sport Springs on 20" wheels wrapped with Pirelli PZero Nero tires. My car used to handle better stock, is this true or am just messing with myself
Was OEM tires run flat? If yes and you switched to non run flat tires, you lost some sway. Car will feel like you installed skinny sway bars.
OEM used to be RFTs ya. But i think i should have got MPSS instead of Pirellis
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      04-27-2016, 05:03 PM   #8
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Putting springs on OEM shocks is never meant to improve handling, only looks. Suspension design is fairly complex and the whole system is designed to work together as a whole. When you change one thing (especially drastically), you typically get worse performance.

For one thing, the shocks' damping ratio needs to be matched to the spring rate. You changed the springs without a stronger set of shocks, so you will get more suspension travel due to lack of damping, and your car will bounce like crazy and handle like sh*t.
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      04-27-2016, 05:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandwi54 View Post
Putting springs on OEM shocks is never meant to improve handling, only looks. Suspension design is fairly complex and the whole system is designed together as a whole. When you change one thing (especially drastically), you typically get worse performance.

For one thing, the shocks' damping ratio needs to be matched to the spring rate. You changed the springs without a stronger set of shocks, so you will get more suspension travel due to lack of damping, and your car will bounce like crazy and handle like sh*t.
+1.

And yet there are a bunch of clowns on here that will say, "I put H&R springs with my stock shocks and now my car rides like a dream and stays flat during cornering..."

When you hear that, you can attribute that to someone cheerleading purchases that they have already made.
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      04-27-2016, 05:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo08816
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandwi54 View Post
Putting springs on OEM shocks is never meant to improve handling, only looks. Suspension design is fairly complex and the whole system is designed together as a whole. When you change one thing (especially drastically), you typically get worse performance.

For one thing, the shocks' damping ratio needs to be matched to the spring rate. You changed the springs without a stronger set of shocks, so you will get more suspension travel due to lack of damping, and your car will bounce like crazy and handle like sh*t.
+1.

And yet there are a bunch of clowns on here that will say, "I put H&R springs with my stock shocks and now my car rides like a dream and stays flat during cornering..."

When you hear that, you can attribute that to someone cheerleading purchases that they have already made.
Either they are in denial and protecting their pride, or they simply aren't good enough of drivers and can't tell the difference.
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      04-27-2016, 07:22 PM   #11
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So to prevent that from happening again in the future, what to suggest to get car you wanted to be without performance sacrifice if not make it better?
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      04-27-2016, 07:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PETERYanni View Post
So to prevent that from happening again in the future, what to suggest to get car you wanted to be without performance sacrifice if not make it better?
Well what aspects of handling loss are you referring to? body roll? under/oversteer/ride compliance?
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      04-28-2016, 12:16 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo08816 View Post
+1.

And yet there are a bunch of clowns on here that will say, "I put H&R springs with my stock shocks and now my car rides like a dream and stays flat during cornering..."

When you hear that, you can attribute that to someone cheerleading purchases that they have already made.
Actually it does

For average driving on nice roads its more the adequate if you arent going to push the car that hard.

Live in the snowbelt however and have to deal with shitty roads or track the car and start pushing it and you start to see the problems but sadly most people dont drive their cars anywhere near a limit where it become a factor.

However yeah its best to match your springs to your dampers and my B8s are going on soon LOL
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      04-28-2016, 12:18 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PETERYanni View Post
So to prevent that from happening again in the future, what to suggest to get car you wanted to be without performance sacrifice if not make it better?
You still havent defined what you are referring to by handling loss.
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      04-28-2016, 08:26 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo08816 View Post
+1.

And yet there are a bunch of clowns on here that will say, "I put H&R springs with my stock shocks and now my car rides like a dream and stays flat during cornering..."

When you hear that, you can attribute that to someone cheerleading purchases that they have already made.
Hmmm. Reminds me of my old 98 Accord ExV6 I had as a kid...
I was thoroughly disgusted by the amount of dive/squat Honda engineered into the suspension system. All of my previous gen Accords had fairly tight control of dive/squat.
The new (at the time) 98 6th gen I bought literally nose dived like a large American sedan. I thought I would remedy this dive with a set of H&R OE Soft Sport Springs paired with the OEM shocks.

To my dismay, brake dive and acceleration squat were still ever present. I don't think the springs made a difference at all, in that regard. The front drop was .75 inch and the rear was lowered .50 inch.

Ride quality did remain very stock like. No bad habits at all. But still, the dive was sickening.
The only redeeming quality the H&R springs had in that application, was body roll was greatly diminished. Disappointed by the dive, I was elated to discover that brisk cornering produced very minimal amounts of body roll. The Accord stock, had reasonably good roll control. In fact I had no problem with the Accord in this regard. But the added roll resistance the car displayed with the springs was a night and day (not to mention unexpected) improvement.

I say this to say, springs alone can increase handling and cornering stability, as well as turn in ability. But again this was on my Accord, but I'd assume BMW applications to be similar.

Springs and shocks DO need to be matched... In my Accords case I think the spring rate was very similar to stock, but just offered a slight reduction in ride height. It all worked together very well.

More... I had a 99 Avenger ES V6 (Eclipse clone) that I fitted KYB AGX adjustable shocks to.
I kept the stock springs on this one. Adjusting the shocks firmer and firmer did produce better handling in the form of less dive/squat/roll/pitch/and better transient response. In fact, set near full firm (3 front / 6 or 7 rear) handling and ride was quite nice, again with no bad habits and awesome control. Set to full soft, the ride was stockfish.

In my experience, springs or shocks alone can increase handling. But then again, how much better would the handling have been if the springs AND shocks had been matched??

I can recall instances of people applying super low and stiff springs to OEM shocks and the dilapidated, uncontrolled, unrefined, and strut damaging ride quality it produced.
This was a common occurrence seen in my Car club where people only wanted to "drop" the car as cheaply as possible.

But in the case of a mild drop, with almost stock spring rates, it has been my experience that you can run stock shocks. Or just firmer shocks and have great results.

Do these Bimmers not respond similarly? I added Bilstein HD shocks to my stock E90 sport package springs and once again, handling improved markedly. In addition ride quality, in certain conditions, improved as well. But then again, this was another "mild" upgrade.
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      04-28-2016, 10:02 AM   #16
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the OP said standard shocks....that's already the problem IMHO....std shocks are FAR FAR too soft even with stock soggy springs....with harder springs his car must bounce around all over the place even with the 20" rims. I would put B8 Bilsteins on your lowered springs...but you might then find 20" rims are a bit much unless you have good roads. I'm in NY....our roads are worse than Africa
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      04-28-2016, 03:04 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjkbrit View Post
the OP said standard shocks....that's already the problem IMHO....std shocks are FAR FAR too soft even with stock soggy springs....with harder springs his car must bounce around all over the place even with the 20" rims. I would put B8 Bilsteins on your lowered springs...but you might then find 20" rims are a bit much unless you have good roads. I'm in NY....our roads are worse than Africa
This.
The OEM shock valving is wayyy too soft.
Even with soft springs, you can have composed ride and handling if the shocks are tuned appropriately. In the case of the F30, I would add firmer shocks before I touched the springs.
BMW has really dropped the ball here. What the hell were they thinking with the stock settings? Any midlevel Accord, Mazda6,Optima, Altima, etc, will roll down the road with more composure, solidity, and refinement than most of these F30.
On the other hand, for all its suspension shortcomings, the F30 handling still seems pretty good. Maybe BMW feels that most owners don't mind this ride/handling mix. Hell, maybe some prefer it. I can't help but wonder about F30 owners, who also have a "regular" sedan in the household as well. Don't they wonder why the 50k BMW suspension feels cheaper than their Accord Maxima or Optima? Maybe it's not a big deal to most... I would so love to discuss this with the engineers who set this car up. Base suspension is far from being tied down enough. Sport suspension is much better, but still has a bit of excess ride motions. I have yet to try the DCP equipped cars, maybe they are more well damped?

Anyway back on topic... Adding stiffer, lower springs to flaccid shocks will indeed cause a bouncier busier ride.
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      04-28-2016, 09:31 PM   #18
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Could not agree more. Soft OEM shocks (poorly) matched with stiff springs will only lead to a bouncy ride and an agonizing decision whether to buy coilovers.
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      04-28-2016, 10:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfm56d7b
Could not agree more. Soft OEM shocks (poorly) matched with stiff springs will only lead to a bouncy ride and an agonizing decision whether to buy coilovers.
... and wasting money on labor cost TWICE.
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      04-29-2016, 12:59 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandwi54 View Post
... and wasting money on labor cost TWICE.
Fully agreed x2
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      04-29-2016, 02:30 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Andlee View Post
Fully agreed x2
x3!
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      05-05-2016, 10:57 AM   #22
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Do you guys think that even with Dinnan springs it will be same result? I understand they have a better rate than h&r?
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