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      11-26-2012, 02:28 PM   #243
jsedlak
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Red Seat Belts!! hahaha

My issue with the AMGs is that while they make disgusting amounts of power, you can't use it.

Interesting review Sounds like the Caddy compromises some comfort to give us better handling.
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      11-26-2012, 02:55 PM   #244
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12 pages as a result of an imbecilic review. Unbelievable.
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      11-26-2012, 03:05 PM   #245
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Forgot to add, Motor Trend is terrible, and has been terrible forever. They're an advertiser whore rag, and I've hated them long before I thought about buying a BMW. They just suck.
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      11-26-2012, 09:15 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
In Car & Driver testing an F30 328i sport line on all seasons put up exactly the same 0-60 and lateral g numbers as the E46 330i ZHP on staggered summer tires, and weighs almost exactly the same, while having better fuel economy, emissions, interior room and ride comfort.

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...rison-test.pdf
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...kage-road-test

The people being crybabies about BMW going to crap need to shut the hell up.
Yes, the numbers on paper are great. That's what 9 years of evolution will do to a car. But the ZHP is still way more fun to drive, so if you're looking for the "sport" in the sport sedan, the F30 dissappoints.

By all means though, let's magazine race some more.
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      11-26-2012, 09:52 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Yes, the numbers on paper are great. That's what 9 years of evolution will do to a car. But the ZHP is still way more fun to drive, so if you're looking for the "sport" in the sport sedan, the F30 dissappoints.

By all means though, let's magazine race some more.
I'm coming from an E46 330, a car I drove the wheels off for eight years. The new car moves almost effortlessly by comparison, steers sharply, and still has great throttle and braking response. It's like a gazelle - it doesn't need to be wrestled everywhere. It just goes where I want it to go, and does so without protest. It also doesn't feel like my teeth are going to shatter, and I don't have to grapple with it to get it to do what I want. It's more like a psychic gazelle. In a dinner jacket.

I guess you could call that "less sporting", but frankly, how far do you want to go? We could put ignition advance back on the steering column and have crank starters - that's more like enthusiast cars of the past! In fact, what's all this nonsense about an enclosed cockpit? Needless weight for sissies.

You want more "sport" just for the sake of sport? Put a blindfold on and juggle while driving.

okay, I'm done with reductio ad absurdum.

The new car just filters some of the driving "nonsense" from the E46 era - unnecessary noise that really had nothing to do with "sport" other than it was needlessly rough.

I think some people's view of "sporting" equates to "a harsher ride and more difficult to drive". This car outdoes the E46 and the E90 at almost everything, while softening some of the "feel". Like every F30 owner, I could have just as easily bought a new E92 if I thought it was better. Or I could have kept my E46. It was no contest. The F30 is better in so many ways.

It's as quick and nimble as ever, it just does what it does with less fuss. The E46 was a temper-tantrum in comparison.
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      11-27-2012, 12:07 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by S-Dot View Post
I'm coming from an E46 330, a car I drove the wheels off for eight years. The new car moves almost effortlessly by comparison, steers sharply, and still has great throttle and braking response. It's like a gazelle - it doesn't need to be wrestled everywhere. It just goes where I want it to go, and does so without protest. It also doesn't feel like my teeth are going to shatter, and I don't have to grapple with it to get it to do what I want. It's more like a psychic gazelle. In a dinner jacket.

I guess you could call that "less sporting", but frankly, how far do you want to go? We could put ignition advance back on the steering column and have crank starters - that's more like enthusiast cars of the past! In fact, what's all this nonsense about an enclosed cockpit? Needless weight for sissies.

You want more "sport" just for the sake of sport? Put a blindfold on and juggle while driving.

okay, I'm done with reductio ad absurdum.

The new car just filters some of the driving "nonsense" from the E46 era - unnecessary noise that really had nothing to do with "sport" other than it was needlessly rough.

I think some people's view of "sporting" equates to "a harsher ride and more difficult to drive". This car outdoes the E46 and the E90 at almost everything, while softening some of the "feel". Like every F30 owner, I could have just as easily bought a new E92 if I thought it was better. Or I could have kept my E46. It was no contest. The F30 is better in so many ways.

It's as quick and nimble as ever, it just does what it does with less fuss. The E46 was a temper-tantrum in comparison.
You must have had great dental insurance if you tortured yourself for all those years in the E46... I drove a ZHP for almost 5 years and it was just pure driving pleasure. Stupid me went after the power and torque of the N54, when I should have just kept the E46. Anyway, in absolutely no way do I consider the F30 the successor to that car.

I'm glad you like your car, but as a counterpoint of someone who walked into the dealership check in hand and left without a car, some of us really do hate the way the new car drives, it's that simple.

Enjoy your new, less stressed driving experience.
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      11-27-2012, 04:23 AM   #249
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1 thing I find very odd about this guy's review is that it compare an entry level luxury sedan with Nissan 370 Z. The beauty of BMW 335 is that it combines speed and agility with comfort. I don't want to buy a car that is so harsh I feel like I'm driving a Nissan 370 Z.

Kudos to Cadillac but its not the top car just yet.

What we like all comes down to personal preference , but at the end of the day BMW was smart and targeted the majority of customers. The majority of customer don't drive to race. For the rest of us, well make sure you either get the m or get ready for some upgrades, or better yet, say hello to cadi
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Last edited by shahramghs; 11-27-2012 at 04:28 AM.
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      11-27-2012, 09:29 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
You must have had great dental insurance if you tortured yourself for all those years in the E46... I drove a ZHP for almost 5 years and it was just pure driving pleasure. Stupid me went after the power and torque of the N54, when I should have just kept the E46. Anyway, in absolutely no way do I consider the F30 the successor to that car.

I'm glad you like your car, but as a counterpoint of someone who walked into the dealership check in hand and left without a car, some of us really do hate the way the new car drives, it's that simple.

Enjoy your new, less stressed driving experience.
I certainly do! Every day.

Stress != sporting, and stress != fun. Why needlessly add stress in the vehicle you do you use to commute or get groceries? For better subjective "feel" on the track? If we're lucky, it might spend 1% of it's life being really tested. Should the attributes of the 99% be sacrificed for slight improvement in "feel" in the 1%? In a daily-driver sedan?

If we were concerned only with the 1%, we would all be commuting in Ariel Atoms. Surely anything less is a compromise.

So maybe I don't know sporting. I am just a girl.

In the late 80's I raced what was then called "Open Class" motorcycles - for me that was a heavily modified GSXR-1100 (the first generation of the machine), lapping primarily at Shannonville, but occasionally at MoSport, and one trip a year to Race City in Calgary. I preferred Calgary, which is a counter-clockwise track, and I could always get lower and more sideways turning left for some reason. The bike was a beast to control, brutally peaky power, harsh suspension that wanted to buck you off, twitchy steering that was prone to speed-wobble every time the front wheel touched down, and other assorted "eccentricities". I spent half the time in the pits trying to get four Mikuni smooth-bores to sing the same tune. They never did.

Fast-forward to today. I could grab pretty much any 600 super sport off the shelf, scrub in the tires, and run as fast or faster on the track. WAY less stress, and WAY more fun. In fact, I'd say filtering out the stress purifies the fun.

To suggest that the new bike is "less sporty" because it has better suspension, steering, chassis, geometry, power delivery, etc is nonsense. It does everything the old bike could do, but it does it with ease, and with much less protest.

That you "hate the way the new car drives" is a subjective argument, not quantitative. Everyone has their own preferences. But to suggest it's because it's less "sporty", well that argument doesn't hold water. It feels different from what you would prefer, or you may say that it feels less sporty to you, but because it out-performs the old model, one cannot accurately state that it is less sporty.

As an aside, I have to question how serious any magazine is taking thier editorials when they track one vehicle in "max performance" summer tires, and the other in spongy all seasons.
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      11-27-2012, 09:49 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinf79 View Post
You pull up to a light w/ what ever sh*t box you're driving beside me ... and let's compare rides.

Ever sinced I added my different wheel setup (better offset IMO) and a few mods to get the look just right ... I get compliments from random folks every single day (and this isn't fabricated). And if its not guys giving me the thumbs up as they drive by ... its people staring in envy at my blue brake calipers (and you're probably one of them). I would pick my 335i M Sport over any of these cars in a heart beat. I would pick my car asthetically ... and performance is not even a comparison.

After reading these posts from folks who have never driven any of the cars in this comparison ... or have driven F30's w/o the appropriate options (asthetics included), you should do yourself a favour and save your worthless dribble, because its as valuable as a pile of sh*t w/ flies on it.


Attachment 786279
I have the same color msport as this. Get carbon fiber mirror caps. You won't regret it.
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      11-27-2012, 10:17 AM   #252
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Quote:
I certainly do! Every day.

Stress != sporting, and stress != fun. Why needlessly add stress in the vehicle you do you use to commute or get groceries? For better subjective "feel" on the track? If we're lucky, it might spend 1% of it's life being really tested. Should the attributes of the 99% be sacrificed for slight improvement in "feel" in the 1%? In a daily-driver sedan?

If we were concerned only with the 1%, we would all be commuting in Ariel Atoms. Surely anything less is a compromise.

So maybe I don't know sporting. I am just a girl.

In the late 80's I raced what was then called "Open Class" motorcycles - for me that was a heavily modified GSXR-1100 (the first generation of the machine), lapping primarily at Shannonville, but occasionally at MoSport, and one trip a year to Race City in Calgary. I preferred Calgary, which is a counter-clockwise track, and I could always get lower and more sideways turning left for some reason. The bike was a beast to control, brutally peaky power, harsh suspension that wanted to buck you off, twitchy steering that was prone to speed-wobble every time the front wheel touched down, and other assorted "eccentricities". I spent half the time in the pits trying to get four Mikuni smooth-bores to sing the same tune. They never did.

Fast-forward to today. I could grab pretty much any 600 super sport off the shelf, scrub in the tires, and run as fast or faster on the track. WAY less stress, and WAY more fun. In fact, I'd say filtering out the stress purifies the fun.

To suggest that the new bike is "less sporty" because it has better suspension, steering, chassis, geometry, power delivery, etc is nonsense. It does everything the old bike could do, but it does it with ease, and with much less protest.

That you "hate the way the new car drives" is a subjective argument, not quantitative. Everyone has their own preferences. But to suggest it's because it's less "sporty", well that argument doesn't hold water. It feels different from what you would prefer, or you may say that it feels less sporty to you, but because it out-performs the old model, one cannot accurately state that it is less sporty.

As an aside, I have to question how serious any magazine is taking thier editorials when they track one vehicle in "max performance" summer tires, and the other in spongy all seasons.
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      11-27-2012, 10:24 AM   #253
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The E46 fanatics can cry about "feel" all they want, and they're entitled to their opinions, but meanwhile out in the real world on the roads we actually drive our cars on the E46 330i ZHP simply can't keep up with a F30 335i Sport/M Sport unless the F30 driver is just dogging it. Past a certain point harping on subjective feel just starts to feel like making excuses. You can't act like performance rules all and then move the goal posts when your old war horse gets out-performed and expect to be taken seriously.
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      11-27-2012, 10:27 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S-Dot View Post
I certainly do! Every day.

Stress != sporting, and stress != fun. Why needlessly add stress in the vehicle you do you use to commute or get groceries? For better subjective "feel" on the track? If we're lucky, it might spend 1% of it's life being really tested. Should the attributes of the 99% be sacrificed for slight improvement in "feel" in the 1%? In a daily-driver sedan?

If we were concerned only with the 1%, we would all be commuting in Ariel Atoms. Surely anything less is a compromise.

So maybe I don't know sporting. I am just a girl.

In the late 80's I raced what was then called "Open Class" motorcycles - for me that was a heavily modified GSXR-1100 (the first generation of the machine), lapping primarily at Shannonville, but occasionally at MoSport, and one trip a year to Race City in Calgary. I preferred Calgary, which is a counter-clockwise track, and I could always get lower and more sideways turning left for some reason. The bike was a beast to control, brutally peaky power, harsh suspension that wanted to buck you off, twitchy steering that was prone to speed-wobble every time the front wheel touched down, and other assorted "eccentricities". I spent half the time in the pits trying to get four Mikuni smooth-bores to sing the same tune. They never did.

Fast-forward to today. I could grab pretty much any 600 super sport off the shelf, scrub in the tires, and run as fast or faster on the track. WAY less stress, and WAY more fun. In fact, I'd say filtering out the stress purifies the fun.

To suggest that the new bike is "less sporty" because it has better suspension, steering, chassis, geometry, power delivery, etc is nonsense. It does everything the old bike could do, but it does it with ease, and with much less protest.

That you "hate the way the new car drives" is a subjective argument, not quantitative. Everyone has their own preferences. But to suggest it's because it's less "sporty", well that argument doesn't hold water. It feels different from what you would prefer, or you may say that it feels less sporty to you, but because it out-performs the old model, one cannot accurately state that it is less sporty.

As an aside, I have to question how serious any magazine is taking thier editorials when they track one vehicle in "max performance" summer tires, and the other in spongy all seasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bnekic View Post
+1. That post was excellent and very well written.

I hope to own something like a Radical or a Atom someday for immense track day thrills. For on the road, I love the refined sportiness of the 3 series.
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      11-27-2012, 12:43 PM   #255
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Folks, enjoy what you drive, e46,e90,f30 they are all great cars and have their own unique characteristics.

F30 is just the best
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      11-27-2012, 01:00 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S-Dot View Post
I certainly do! Every day.

Stress != sporting, and stress != fun. Why needlessly add stress in the vehicle you do you use to commute or get groceries? For better subjective "feel" on the track? If we're lucky, it might spend 1% of it's life being really tested. Should the attributes of the 99% be sacrificed for slight improvement in "feel" in the 1%? In a daily-driver sedan?

If we were concerned only with the 1%, we would all be commuting in Ariel Atoms. Surely anything less is a compromise.

So maybe I don't know sporting. I am just a girl.

In the late 80's I raced what was then called "Open Class" motorcycles - for me that was a heavily modified GSXR-1100 (the first generation of the machine), lapping primarily at Shannonville, but occasionally at MoSport, and one trip a year to Race City in Calgary. I preferred Calgary, which is a counter-clockwise track, and I could always get lower and more sideways turning left for some reason. The bike was a beast to control, brutally peaky power, harsh suspension that wanted to buck you off, twitchy steering that was prone to speed-wobble every time the front wheel touched down, and other assorted "eccentricities". I spent half the time in the pits trying to get four Mikuni smooth-bores to sing the same tune. They never did.

Fast-forward to today. I could grab pretty much any 600 super sport off the shelf, scrub in the tires, and run as fast or faster on the track. WAY less stress, and WAY more fun. In fact, I'd say filtering out the stress purifies the fun.

To suggest that the new bike is "less sporty" because it has better suspension, steering, chassis, geometry, power delivery, etc is nonsense. It does everything the old bike could do, but it does it with ease, and with much less protest.

That you "hate the way the new car drives" is a subjective argument, not quantitative. Everyone has their own preferences. But to suggest it's because it's less "sporty", well that argument doesn't hold water. It feels different from what you would prefer, or you may say that it feels less sporty to you, but because it out-performs the old model, one cannot accurately state that it is less sporty.

As an aside, I have to question how serious any magazine is taking thier editorials when they track one vehicle in "max performance" summer tires, and the other in spongy all seasons.
well said...sorry "adc".
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      11-27-2012, 02:35 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S-Dot View Post
I certainly do! Every day.

Stress != sporting, and stress != fun. Why needlessly add stress in the vehicle you do you use to commute or get groceries? For better subjective "feel" on the track? If we're lucky, it might spend 1% of it's life being really tested. Should the attributes of the 99% be sacrificed for slight improvement in "feel" in the 1%? In a daily-driver sedan?

If we were concerned only with the 1%, we would all be commuting in Ariel Atoms. Surely anything less is a compromise.

So maybe I don't know sporting. I am just a girl.

In the late 80's I raced what was then called "Open Class" motorcycles - for me that was a heavily modified GSXR-1100 (the first generation of the machine), lapping primarily at Shannonville, but occasionally at MoSport, and one trip a year to Race City in Calgary. I preferred Calgary, which is a counter-clockwise track, and I could always get lower and more sideways turning left for some reason. The bike was a beast to control, brutally peaky power, harsh suspension that wanted to buck you off, twitchy steering that was prone to speed-wobble every time the front wheel touched down, and other assorted "eccentricities". I spent half the time in the pits trying to get four Mikuni smooth-bores to sing the same tune. They never did.

Fast-forward to today. I could grab pretty much any 600 super sport off the shelf, scrub in the tires, and run as fast or faster on the track. WAY less stress, and WAY more fun. In fact, I'd say filtering out the stress purifies the fun.

To suggest that the new bike is "less sporty" because it has better suspension, steering, chassis, geometry, power delivery, etc is nonsense. It does everything the old bike could do, but it does it with ease, and with much less protest.

That you "hate the way the new car drives" is a subjective argument, not quantitative. Everyone has their own preferences. But to suggest it's because it's less "sporty", well that argument doesn't hold water. It feels different from what you would prefer, or you may say that it feels less sporty to you, but because it out-performs the old model, one cannot accurately state that it is less sporty.

As an aside, I have to question how serious any magazine is taking thier editorials when they track one vehicle in "max performance" summer tires, and the other in spongy all seasons.
Thanks, I dont have to say it now. Seems like every review shows the F30 beating everything it's compared to in performance, but the 'feel' isn't as harsh as they'd want it, or sporty as they like to call it. Call me crazy, but I'll take the higher performer which happens to be more comfortable while doing so any day of the week.

This car just does what you want without protest. I happen to like that.
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      11-27-2012, 03:50 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by tdizzle View Post
Thanks, I dont have to say it now. Seems like every review shows the F30 beating everything it's compared to in performance, but the 'feel' isn't as harsh as they'd want it, or sporty as they like to call it. Call me crazy, but I'll take the higher performer which happens to be more comfortable while doing so any day of the week.

This car just does what you want without protest. I happen to like that.
You're crazy. IMO - if my income depended on beating other drivers, yes, I'd certainly take the higher performing car no matter what. Since my income is derived elsewhere, however, I'll take the lesser performing car with better "feel." That said, I purchased an F30 because I liked the "feel" more than the competition (E90, A4, IS, S60, TL, etc.)

Therefore - I'll take the F30 to work and dinner, but I'll take the S2000 to autocross and track, even if the F30 ended up being the faster of the two.
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      11-27-2012, 03:56 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by elistan View Post
You're crazy. IMO - if my income depended on beating other drivers, yes, I'd certainly take the higher performing car no matter what. Since my income is derived elsewhere, however, I'll take the lesser performing car with better "feel." That said, I purchased an F30 because I liked the "feel" more than the competition (E90, A4, IS, S60, TL, etc.)

Therefore - I'll take the F30 to work and dinner, but I'll take the S2000 to autocross and track, even if the F30 ended up being the faster of the two.
haha touche'! 'Feel' is a very personal thing
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      11-27-2012, 04:07 PM   #260
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I currently own a C350 Coupe and its RWD handling is a joke (came from an Audi S5). I can't even take off on a left turn without the car giving me a anti slip warning.

The C350 coupe is a looker and that's about it. Its catered to people who wants look and moderate performance. I haven't read the whole article, but I'm amazed it will lose to outright to a bimmer.

I can't respect a car winning a competition against other cars with manual options. Can't wait to test drive a 4 series manual when its available.
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      11-27-2012, 04:15 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
The E46 fanatics can cry about "feel" all they want, and they're entitled to their opinions, but meanwhile out in the real world on the roads we actually drive our cars on the E46 330i ZHP simply can't keep up with a F30 335i Sport/M Sport unless the F30 driver is just dogging it. Past a certain point harping on subjective feel just starts to feel like making excuses. You can't act like performance rules all and then move the goal posts when your old war horse gets out-performed and expect to be taken seriously.
That's great, but all sorts of things are faster than an F30, but that doesn't make them more enjoyable. I'm another that went to buy an F30 but left without one. To be fair, we did the same thing with the E90 though. Each time however we did end up with another BMW, an E82 first and an E84 this time. These are my wife's cars and I still need a car, which was initially going to be an F31, but the all auto all the time option killed that for me.
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      11-27-2012, 04:54 PM   #262
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haha touche'! 'Feel' is a very personal thing

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      11-27-2012, 06:31 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Yes, the numbers on paper are great. That's what 9 years of evolution will do to a car. But the ZHP is still way more fun to drive, so if you're looking for the "sport" in the sport sedan, the F30 dissappoints.

By all means though, let's magazine race some more.
I'm coming from an E46 330, a car I drove the wheels off for eight years. The new car moves almost effortlessly by comparison, steers sharply, and still has great throttle and braking response. It's like a gazelle - it doesn't need to be wrestled everywhere. It just goes where I want it to go, and does so without protest. It also doesn't feel like my teeth are going to shatter, and I don't have to grapple with it to get it to do what I want. It's more like a psychic gazelle. In a dinner jacket.

I guess you could call that "less sporting", but frankly, how far do you want to go? We could put ignition advance back on the steering column and have crank starters - that's more like enthusiast cars of the past! In fact, what's all this nonsense about an enclosed cockpit? Needless weight for sissies.

You want more "sport" just for the sake of sport? Put a blindfold on and juggle while driving.

okay, I'm done with reductio ad absurdum.

The new car just filters some of the driving "nonsense" from the E46 era - unnecessary noise that really had nothing to do with "sport" other than it was needlessly rough.

I think some people's view of "sporting" equates to "a harsher ride and more difficult to drive". This car outdoes the E46 and the E90 at almost everything, while softening some of the "feel". Like every F30 owner, I could have just as easily bought a new E92 if I thought it was better. Or I could have kept my E46. It was no contest. The F30 is better in so many ways.

It's as quick and nimble as ever, it just does what it does with less fuss. The E46 was a temper-tantrum in comparison.
This +1.

Bmw autox events classify even the n20/26 in the same class as n54/55 because it would be unfair to non //M e46's. even the f30 328i is considered to have an edge over the 330. And its pretty sporty to me. I came from a 400+/400+ to all four wheels evo.

I dont understand ppl who talk about sport "feel" and "handling" and whatever performance shit you want to talk about when all they do is drive from point a to point b. of course its gonna feel not so sporty. Try taking it out to a track. It'll feel plenty different.
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      11-27-2012, 06:47 PM   #264
MikeTerp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkTrigger View Post
I think the ATS was too small inside when I tried to sit in it. It's really hard to tell the difference between a black ATS and a black CTS on the road.
.
I think any review of sports sedans that focuses this much on their nav/infotainment systems is automatically suspect. That said, having driven the ATS, it IS a nice machine; however, it is much more a two seater than either of the others - the back seat is quite cramped (reminded me a bit of the small Lexus IS). I'm a BMW guy (E90) and if replacing my current ride would head for that showroom first, but nice to see that there are other quality cars in this segment now, and the upcoming new A4 should add to it.
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