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BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > 2012-2019 BMW 3 and 4-Series Forums > General F30 Sedan / F32 Coupe / F36 Gran Coupe Forum > MT Head 2 Head: BMW 335i vs ATS 3.6 vs C350
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      11-22-2012, 12:56 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by swanson View Post
No, I do not own a F30 because I feel BMW dropped the ball with this model. It is not a good looking car to me and judging by the reviews, its not a better driving car then past 3 series. I've been a BMW fan for a very long time, I just do like the direction they are taking, and their current cars show it. I'm happy the Cadillac beat the BMW at their own game.
So, you're using reviews as your basis by which to judge the F30's performance.

Your comments are as valid as the BMW owners who have judged the ATS based only on it's looks without having driven it.

I'm happy that you're happy.
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      11-22-2012, 01:00 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by DarkTrigger View Post
I think the BMW has improved the comfort, performance, technology, fuel economy, and dependability. I think people at nit picking at this point saying the steering is vague and crap like that (try driving a prius).

I would throw up if I drove an M3 as a daily driver because of the harshness. To each his own.

Also, to all the people bashing the F30 obviously don't own F30s, and that's for a reason. Because "they" found a reason why "they", in particular, didn't like it.
So true, so true.
But in this day and age it seems one's opinion is fact, for all.
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      11-22-2012, 02:03 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
This MPG thing comes up a lot, but where's the proof?

At this point the 328i AT and 335i AT have the same MPG rating city and highway. For day to day driving I don't see how there would be much difference in MPG as both cars use the same trans with the same gearing, and will require the same power output.

The actual MPG difference will be seen when the 335i is driven harder as it puts out more power.
But for daily driving there isn't going to be that much of an MPG difference created by the 145lb difference between the versions.
Yes, there will be some difference in MPG especially with drivers who are more aggressive in either version.
However it seems much comment is made about how the 328i has such better MPG over the 335i. But let's see the actual difference. How muc is it really? It may be 1 to 3mpg. Is that enough so that one chooses the 328i over the 335i, if one only used MPG as the deciding factor?
It's not like the difference is 5mpg or higher.

I'm averaging between 25.5 to 27mpg in my 335i Msport w/sport AT on sticky summer high performance tires, and that includes daily commuting with spirited driving in the mix.
My 135i 6MT only managed between 21.5 to 22mpg and it was a lighter coupe, driven in the same manner on the same routes.
With the 8spd AT it's actually quite impressive how good of an MPG the 335i does get
seriously man, this is why the 328i vs 335i debates wont stop. out of 150+ posts in this thread, you choose to respond to the 1 or 2 posts that includes a 328i? first you argue that the handling difference between the two is not there even though we know there is a weight difference and its been reviewed by non-fanboys that there is a difference, if not just in feel alone. then you even try to argue that MPG difference is minimal as well? You want people to believe that BMW built the N20 lighter and more fuel efficient but it still is not better than the N55? Sorry dude, you have some good posts, but just not believing that, especially since they are replacing the N55 soon. 335i owners try to act as if its 328i guys pumping their chests but 99% of the examples I see on this forum its the other way around.
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      11-22-2012, 02:17 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by johnofcross View Post
Indeed. Speaking of which, did this guy even hit the Sport button? That would fix many of the things he described.
I was considering the ATS myself. But it took too long
... ... that would explain why he repeatly said : Rubbery, Rubbery... Rubbery !

... sadly i agree (when compared to previous generation 3 series )

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeezz View Post
Since when did BMW design in Stuttgart and Benz in Munich? (5:47 in the video)
Only when he is making a joke....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTHAUS View Post
Get this straight first.

Mercedes is from Stuttgart
BMW is from Munich.
I think you guys kinda stopped listening to his next sentence as you were shocked to hear such false words... I was shocked myself but i didn't stop listening...

Quote:
Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut View Post


Bam!
You missed the "joke"

Quote:
Originally Posted by claykin View Post
He's making a joke that they copy each others designs.
finally someone with some functional ears

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Originally Posted by Roki_014 View Post
this one is very entertaining .... i mean he's test driving the car at the dealership parking lot

I can see this guy will be going far !!! ....
New technology: "something called "Direct Injection" and "Variable valve timing!" " .... LOL LOL LOL
presenting a BMW around the Honda dealership ???


The camera man has just some issues knowing where to focus his phone "should i focus on the car or my stardom-bound buddy ?"
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      11-22-2012, 02:27 AM   #159
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Liebermann was joking with the München/Stuttgart stuff.

Anyway:Liebermann is entitled to his opinion whether I/you/we like it or not. It's a free world where I come from. It's not a big fuzz.

Caddy looks nice too imo . So why not?

Maybe if I drove them I'd still choose the F30 or the Benz or even the Caddy.
But I guess I'd keep the 335i.
Liebermann stated the Caddy was the best in the bends and the lightest?
That would be a YES for me. I really think the F30 lost some of it's sportiness, tossability.

Choose the car YOU like, not what the neighbours like. It's YOUR car/decision after all. Nice to see many positive writeups about the F30/BMW in general, but sometimes you also have to swallow the less possitive comments and still enjoy your F30/BMW.

Cheers
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      11-22-2012, 04:45 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ric124
It all depends on what you are looking for! In my book the 335i wins because its the fastest of the 3. I have not driven the ATS but I have driven the MB C on a Auto Cross track and it was terrible it was like a boat on land rolling all over the place.

As he said the 335i has the least amount of power but the fastest of the three. That there is a win in my book!!
That's because BMW underrates their engines. Don't get too excited. It's nothing new.
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      11-22-2012, 05:16 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Roki_014 View Post
[i]

first of all this guy is so annoying, according to him ATS drives and feels the best on the road and it is the best performance sedan for $50 k, come on really, i really feel like that automakers pay for these shows to post reviews and just advertise them

what do you think, I don't agree with him at all, maybe because I have 335i m sport, but when I was shopping for a car I didn't even consider Mercedes, and didn't even think of Cadillac at all
Well, guess what, the "annoying" test driver is absolutely right, the ATS drives better than the 335. Period. And no, automakers don't pay auto magazines to win comparos.

Sorry, but you are the annoying one for being so biased.
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      11-22-2012, 05:47 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by jtuds View Post
So you haven't driven the ATS but because you bought a different car and didn't consider Cadlllac when shopping, this guy is wrong?

Who knows why so many reviewers love the ATS...maybe they are skewed by some outside influence,...but maybe they just like it that much. Who cares? You buy your car with your money. What does a reviewer or any other driver have to do with that decision?

Let's not be ignorant and instead accept the fact that engineering is engineering and if a company in this day and age is willing to put in the effort and the expense, the product will be good. The country in which the product is designed and made does not inherently determine the quality of the product. Beliving it is would be simplistic and illogical.

In North America, there are great bridges and buildings designed and built, in California they are making some of the most popular consumer electronics in the world and until Blackberry shit the bed, the best business devices were being designed in Canada. But god forbid anyone say a North American company made a good car. It's ridiculous. At the end of the day do what you want, buy the car you want, whatever. If what someone else says has any impact, there's a problem.
I couldn't of said it better myself, but to add I love BMW and I will always favor Bimmers but just because a Car Reviewer doesn't lean in favor of our beloved BMW's doesn't necessarily mean its wrong. BMW has been the Benchmark for years and maybe just maybe Cadillac has surpassed it and my hats off to them, that just means Bimmer has to go back to the drawing board and set the bar again. This friendly competition between these brands only makes the manufactures strive to be better and frankly I love it!!
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      11-22-2012, 07:14 AM   #163
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Carlos Lagos needs to do these Head to Heads. This guy was just too vague. Lagos has a bit more passion and knowledge IMO when it comes to comparos.
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      11-22-2012, 07:17 AM   #164
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this guy is a joke.. it's funny how people take him seriously because he does not even know how to use the command system at all. not to mention that looks like a base c350.. no led headlamps..
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      11-22-2012, 07:58 AM   #165
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I would rather get a Hyundai genesis coupe over a Cadillac any day!
You'd rather do that until you hit a curb like my buddy and wheel comes off then the dealer man tells you it will cost alopt of thousands to fix the car. Talk about poor build quality.
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      11-22-2012, 08:46 AM   #166
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I guess that praising the sane leading brand generation after the other becomes boring for both reviewers and the public... It just becomes so predictable.. Though this guy could be honest about his opinion.
Anyway, it's good to know that Caddy has made it, good for consumers who favor the brand.
As for sports car enthusiasts, BMW fans in specific, the show goes on. I have driven the F30 335 and its awesome! The M-sport arrives next month in the Middle East and I'll be picking up mine
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      11-22-2012, 09:06 AM   #167
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I tried to make it scientific.

I drove the 8at n55 and my 6mt n20 on the same loop where I focus on economy.

I got:
N55-35.5mpg
N20-39.9mpg

No hypermiling, speeds of 75-80 mixed with back roads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
This MPG thing comes up a lot, but .

where's the proof?

At this point the 328i AT and 335i AT have the same MPG rating city and highway. For day to day driving I don't see how there would be much difference in MPG as both cars use the same trans with the same gearing, and will require the same power output.

The actual MPG difference will be seen when the 335i is driven harder as it puts out more power.
But for daily driving there isn't going to be that much of an MPG difference created by the 145lb difference between the versions.
Yes, there will be some difference in MPG especially with drivers who are more aggressive in either version.
However it seems much comment is made about how the 328i has such better MPG over the 335i. But let's see the actual difference. How muc is it really? It may be 1 to 3mpg. Is that enough so that one chooses the 328i over the 335i, if one only used MPG as the deciding factor?
It's not like the difference is 5mpg or higher.

I'm averaging between 25.5 to 27mpg in my 335i Msport w/sport AT on sticky summer high performance tires, and that includes daily commuting with spirited driving in the mix.
My 135i 6MT only managed between 21.5 to 22mpg and it was a lighter coupe, driven in the same manner on the same routes.
With the 8spd AT it's actually quite impressive how good of an MPG the 335i does get
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      11-22-2012, 09:20 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
So, you're using reviews as your basis by which to judge the F30's performance.

Your comments are as valid as the BMW owners who have judged the ATS based only on it's looks without having driven it.
There would be little left of this thread if those posting were required to have actual experience with both cars. Most everything here is posturing and saber rattling.

Kudos to those few who have driven the cars and have tried to evaluate them with an open mind.
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      11-22-2012, 09:23 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Really?

There isn't much difference at all between the 328i sport and 335i sport in terms of handling. Both are built on the same chassis.
The 328i has slightly less weight up front, but that only gives initial steering a slight advantage. I changed the tires on my Msport to non RFT's and the steering response has improved, it now has a slightly lighter and quicker response.

The handling difference between the 328i and 335i is very slight and mostly shows its self on a track. Over all both versions are pretty much the same for the obvious reason, they are on the same chassis.
Less weight up front provide the 328i with closer to 50-50 weight distribution, less propensity toward understeer and less mass overall. Those all help. It's not a night-and-day difference, but they're not the same when pushed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
This MPG thing comes up a lot, but where's the proof?

At this point the 328i AT and 335i AT have the same MPG rating city and highway. For day to day driving I don't see how there would be much difference in MPG as both cars use the same trans with the same gearing, and will require the same power output.
The only place on Earth where they are rated the same for MPG is in the US using the somehow magic 8AT, so obviously there are different laws of physics in the US than the rest of the world. Here in Canada where we get an identical machine, the differences between the models are plainly stated. Much like in the rest of the world.

If you believe that the 8-speed automatic gives the 328i worse mileage than the manual, but magically gives the 335i better mileage, but only in the USA, well that's your choice.

However, the difference is really not that much, and certainly wouldn't have influenced my decision.

As for any of this 328i fanboy nonsense, I've already stated quite publically that I would MUCH rather have the 335i, but I can't afford it. I'd much rather have more power versus a tiny edge in steering or mileage. It's no contest for me.

Also, I'm not a boy, and therefore can't be a fanboy.

What am I then? Extremely analytical, and more than able to admit when one product is superior to another product within one area or another.

I bought an xDrive, which features both worse mileage and worse handling, and I'm not shy about admitting that. But it was still the right vehicle for me.

But this thread is about Cadillac, and what they've done. And bravo to them for pushing things that far! I'm interested to see what the Aussies will do in terms of building a nice Holden with these parts.
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      11-22-2012, 09:37 AM   #170
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And hopefully if there are a bunch more reviews that show the 3-series getting bested in steering or handling or whatever, it will kick the BMW engineers into a higher gear, and we'll get not only better products in the future, but maybe some nice bolt-ons for the current series.
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      11-22-2012, 09:57 AM   #171
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A few things I noticed when I drove the ATS that are not offered in the review:
I have driven all 3 of these exact cars, albeit not on a windy backroad, but in a normal city and a normal highway. In other words, I drove then the way I'd be driving them if I owned them.

1. The ATS is loud. Unsettlingly so. The disparity between normal driving engine noise and hard-on-the-throttle engine noise is significant. As in "wow, where'd that come from" kind of noise. It felt as if BMW, knowing people wanted to hear their engine, found a way to insulate the cabin from noise while also allowing enough in to satisfy the driver and Cadillac just kinda said "well, people like engine noise so let's get rid of the insulation between the engine and the cabin, that'll give 'em what they want and save some weight, two birds with one stone, yeehaw!" It is not a deal breaker but it's there. Think of it this way: when you hear a great home theatre system turned up loud, you know it's loud but it doesn't hurt your ears because it is tuned well and despite the volume it sounds good...but with a crappier system it's like "damn, turn that down!". I felt the Caddy's engine noise was the latter.

2. ATS back seats leave a lot to be desired. I am 6'1 and sat in the back seat behind the driver's seat, with the driver's seat where I had it when driving. My knees were not touching the back of the seat, but my hair was brushing the roof. I also found the butt part of the backseat to be too angled in relation to the back part...it gave me the impression that you'd be sitting in an acute angle. But maybe I'm being obtuse...

3. Trunk space...small. Definitely smaller than the Merc and the BMW. You'd have trouble fitting 2 sacks of golf bats in there, and you'd certainly have to remove your drivers.

4. I don't like the exterior design. It is a shrunken Cadillac. If you're not a fan of their design philosophy, you won't like this car. That said, it is the best looking vehicle in their line up...but it still is not as nice looking at the C class or 3 series. Maybe the ats-v will be a bi tmore appealing.

5. CUE is bad. All that hype about it being revolutionary is bogus because it is slow and makes you take your eyes off the road. Touch screens are not good...they get dirty and they distract the driver. Liebrman is right...it needs to be as good or better then the ipad in terms of reactiveness and ease of use. It's not even close. It's the Pentium II of ipads. CUE is Paperboy and iDrive is Call of Duty.

For the purposes of this test drive...the windy back road with no other traffic, maybe the ATS is the best. BUt most of us drive on normal straight roads and normal highways with lots of other cars and when we are doign that we don't want the jarring of a stiff chassis, and we can't drive hard enough to notice body roll or chassis stiffness.

The reviewer seemed to ignore all the interior stuff he spends the first half of the video explaining, and makes his decision almost entirely based on the backroad experience. I would argue that the difference in driving experience between the 3 cars is far less than the difference in the interiors...which is a lot different. So if driving dynamics in the ATS are a 9/10 and in the 335i it's 8/10, the cabin experience in the ATS is like 6/10 and the 335i is 9/10. Cumulatively, in my books anyway, that would give the 335i the win.

Last edited by jtuds; 11-22-2012 at 10:02 AM.
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      11-22-2012, 10:09 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by SoCali E90 View Post
That's because BMW underrates their engines. Don't get too excited. It's nothing new.
Yeh I know its nothing new most German manufactures do this.

But HP is not everything its all about how do u get that power to the wheel and how do u handle that power when its there.

If put on the track those 2 will be no competition for the 335i and the only real competition for the 335i was not in this comparison which is the Audi S4.

IMHO this comparo was for those who want to do some back road cruising and will never track their cars!

When I go Autocrossing I dont see any MB's or Cadillac's but I do see 335i's and S4's
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      11-22-2012, 10:10 AM   #173
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Cadillac mang!!!
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      11-22-2012, 10:27 AM   #174
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[quote=swanson]
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
It IS a drivers car, when equipped with the proper gear, namely the sport/Msport package, and then driven in "sport/sport+" mode.
And other modes and packages are deemed too civilized for a "sport" sedan.

BTW, do you own an F30, or are you here just to poke at actual F30 owners whenever you read something about the F30 that favors your view of it?
Hmmmm?
Quote:
Originally Posted by swanson
No, I do not own a F30 because I feel BMW dropped the ball with this model. It is not a good looking car to me and judging by the reviews, its not a better driving car then past 3 series. I've been a BMW fan for a very long time, I just do like the direction they are taking, and their current cars show it. I'm happy the Cadillac beat the BMW at their own game.

I do agree with you on this. I've owned 6 consecutive BMWs and its been downhill since my 2002 E46 with sport pkg, but they were still better than the competition, but maybe no longer.
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      11-22-2012, 10:33 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by swanson View Post
No, I do not own a F30 because I feel BMW dropped the ball with this model. It is not a good looking car to me and judging by the reviews, its not a better driving car then past 3 series. I've been a BMW fan for a very long time, I just do like the direction they are taking, and their current cars show it. I'm happy the Cadillac beat the BMW at their own game.
You pull up to a light w/ what ever sh*t box you're driving beside me ... and let's compare rides.

Ever sinced I added my different wheel setup (better offset IMO) and a few mods to get the look just right ... I get compliments from random folks every single day (and this isn't fabricated). And if its not guys giving me the thumbs up as they drive by ... its people staring in envy at my blue brake calipers (and you're probably one of them). I would pick my 335i M Sport over any of these cars in a heart beat. I would pick my car asthetically ... and performance is not even a comparison.

After reading these posts from folks who have never driven any of the cars in this comparison ... or have driven F30's w/o the appropriate options (asthetics included), you should do yourself a favour and save your worthless dribble, because its as valuable as a pile of sh*t w/ flies on it.


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      11-22-2012, 10:44 AM   #176
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