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      12-03-2012, 05:29 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by ATS View Post
...changing the 3 series coupe name to 4 series just to charge more money...
This doesn't really bug me so long as the 4er is better equipped, ie standard nav, bigger brakes, standard adaptive suspension, etc.

None of that will happen though. Wishful thinking.
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      12-03-2012, 05:40 PM   #288
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On the contrary, I think the one that is not listening is BMW. But as you said it yourself: "this is no longer about you".

By "us" I guess you mean the customers that were loyal for years to a brand that used to mean something special, right?

I'm not saying that BMW should only make M3's and M5's just to cater to the driving enthusiasts. That would be very stupid and very unprofitable. The problem is that BMW has betrayed their own roots just for the sake of profit and sales volume.

Things like putting an engine from a lower model into an M car (N54 into the fabulous 1M), changing the 3 series coupe name to 4 series just to charge more money, every model gaining size, weight and numbness compared to the previous one, building atrocities like the 3GT and 5GT, building FWD cars, etc... are things that the BMW I used to love would NEVER had done before.

Go ahead and fill every possible niche out there, but do it by sticking to the company's values, not by selling out.

So please let your company know that a lot of "us" will be going elsewhere when purchasing our next car. Good luck with the Chinese.
I agree with you but welcome to the car market in the 21st century. BMW is not the only one... Mercedes has lost sight of its core values years ago and Audi is setting its sight on BMW as far as performance doing a 180 from 20 years ago.

The beauty part about Audi is it canfocus primarily on performance because not only does it have the cash flow of VW but it also holds Lamborghini. BMW does not have that advantage so it mustbuild FWD vehicles and niche markets to create economy of scales on R&D costs.
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      12-03-2012, 05:58 PM   #289
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I love the fact that they are using a Benz to film it. Go BMW!!
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      12-03-2012, 06:03 PM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89 View Post
The beauty part about Audi is it canfocus primarily on performance because not only does it have the cash flow of VW but it also holds Lamborghini. BMW does not have that advantage so it mustbuild FWD vehicles and niche markets to create economy of scales on R&D costs.
Audi has FWD A1, A3, A4, A5, A6 and A8 models in their range
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      12-03-2012, 06:06 PM   #291
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On the contrary, I think the one that is not listening is BMW. But as you said it yourself: "this is no longer about you".

BMW is not a one market company , so many media and traditionalists believe that BMW should only build and develop cars for one market. This is the problem with the entire industry but you cannot rely on one market any more.

By "us" I guess you mean the customers that were loyal for years to a brand that used to mean something special, right?

I have been with BMW for over twenty years and have seen the exact reaction people have to a new model over and over. New ideas and cultures are generating huge sales , segmentation is rapid in the auto industry and you have to open your mind to new opportunities. This can still be achieved by combining a niche with a BMW's coherent dynamic character even if it is a 3er GT or a FWD BMW Active Tourer.

I'm not saying that BMW should only make M3's and M5's just to cater to the driving enthusiasts. That would be very stupid and very unprofitable. The problem is that BMW has betrayed their own roots just for the sake of profit and sales volume.
This is not just BMW this is the progress of the auto industry. You cannot and in BMW's case justify having the same line up pre-2000 in this era.
BMW like other manufacturers cannot afford to ignore the demands for customers and especially demand for more crossovers Which you can say the 3er GT is a crossover. SUVs and compact and downsized luxury concepts - These are demanded by our customers and these bring in growth to the business and growth is important to BMW's overall key objective and that is to remain wholly independent.


Things like putting an engine from a lower model into an M car (N54 into the fabulous 1M), changing the 3 series coupe name to 4 series just to charge more money, every model gaining size, weight and numbness compared to the previous one, building atrocities like the 3GT and 5GT, building FWD cars, etc... are things that the BMW I used to love would NEVER had done before.

No more dogmas - The markets have changed and the requirements have gotten greater it is either sink or survive and this is not just BMW.

Go ahead and fill every possible niche out there, but do it by sticking to the company's values, not by selling out.

It is not selling out it is reacting the changes of the industry it isthe effect of progress. A BMW will always be a BMW but some models must have a broader spread of ability to be able to make an impact on the market- The X5 started this.

So please let your company know that a lot of "us" will be going elsewhere when purchasing our next car. Good luck with the Chinese.
I am sure you will be happy with whatever you choose. But will you?
My work within marketing is in the cycle for a new model is to make sure all parties involved develop the model to the brief set by our board of directors and create the communication aspects such as launch materials (film and photography) Which I am currently on creating with the BMW i cars.
I have worked with many models over the years but one thing always seems to be re-occurring. And that is originality.

Manufacturers are too obsessed with BMW that their car must match a BMW that they are forgetting about originality. And I am seeing that in marketing as well. They market like a BMW but is it a BMW?
China is not the only BMW market , as I stated originally that BMW has a global customer base and that all markets are catered for.
Please stop referring the 5er GT to cars like the Porsche Panamera ,Audi A7 and Mercedes-Benz CLS. The 5er GT was never designed to be a serious competitor for these cars. I do not know why the media grouped them in evaluation , but it was never designed to be a five door coupe.

Here is a question - If the 5er GT continued on its course and remained as a typical R-Klasse competitor - would it have been more successful?
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      12-03-2012, 06:22 PM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
China is not the only BMW market , as I stated originally that BMW has a global customer base and that all markets are catered for.
>BMW has a global customer base and that all markets are catered for
>global customer base and that all markets are catered for
>all markets are catered for



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      12-03-2012, 06:40 PM   #293
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So, these are the numbers for 5GT globally.

The data is sorted by 2012 YTD, and the 2012 est figure is based on monthly averages by Q1, Q2 and Q3... not that scientific but won't be too far off.



Make of it what you will, but it shows that to say the 5GT shouldn't exist because it's a poor seller would imply that BMW needs to drop 6 or 7 other models too.
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      12-03-2012, 07:03 PM   #294
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HOT!
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      12-03-2012, 07:07 PM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimoM3 View Post
Not bad - much better than the 5GT which is one of the ugliest German cars of all time. I actually like the 3, though it's not for me.
this ^
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      12-03-2012, 07:13 PM   #296
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why bmw??? why??????
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      12-03-2012, 07:15 PM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski View Post
So, these are the numbers for 5GT globally.

The data is sorted by 2012 YTD, and the 2012 est figure is based on monthly averages by Q1, Q2 and Q3... not that scientific but won't be too far off.



Make of it what you will, but it shows that to say the 5GT shouldn't exist because it's a poor seller would imply that BMW needs to drop 6 or 7 other models too.
That's global sales. No one is disputing it's impact in the Europe and Asia markets, it has already been said that it's been very successful there, it's the NA market where the F07 has disappointed.
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      12-03-2012, 07:19 PM   #298
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Looks like we know how the 4 series front end will look like...let the renderings begin! Can't believe those hideous boomerangs on the front fenders made it to production.
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      12-03-2012, 07:37 PM   #299
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That's a fantastic chart!

I can't believe the 5GT is selling almost as well as the 3 series coupe! I wouldn't have guessed that they were even in the same ballpark.

I also can't believe the explosion in 5-series sales overall - phenomenal!
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      12-03-2012, 07:50 PM   #300
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OMG...barf.
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      12-03-2012, 07:54 PM   #301
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not a fan. The only thing I like is the panoramic sunroof. Looks too fat in the rear and those side vents are killing me, I was hoping those were just pre-production mock ups on the previous pictures I saw.
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      12-03-2012, 08:08 PM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
On the contrary, I think the one that is not listening is BMW. But as you said it yourself: "this is no longer about you".

BMW is not a one market company , so many media and traditionalists believe that BMW should only build and develop cars for one market. This is the problem with the entire industry but you cannot rely on one market any more.

By "us" I guess you mean the customers that were loyal for years to a brand that used to mean something special, right?

I have been with BMW for over twenty years and have seen the exact reaction people have to a new model over and over. New ideas and cultures are generating huge sales , segmentation is rapid in the auto industry and you have to open your mind to new opportunities. This can still be achieved by combining a niche with a BMW's coherent dynamic character even if it is a 3er GT or a FWD BMW Active Tourer.

I'm not saying that BMW should only make M3's and M5's just to cater to the driving enthusiasts. That would be very stupid and very unprofitable. The problem is that BMW has betrayed their own roots just for the sake of profit and sales volume.
This is not just BMW this is the progress of the auto industry. You cannot and in BMW's case justify having the same line up pre-2000 in this era.
BMW like other manufacturers cannot afford to ignore the demands for customers and especially demand for more crossovers Which you can say the 3er GT is a crossover. SUVs and compact and downsized luxury concepts - These are demanded by our customers and these bring in growth to the business and growth is important to BMW's overall key objective and that is to remain wholly independent.


Things like putting an engine from a lower model into an M car (N54 into the fabulous 1M), changing the 3 series coupe name to 4 series just to charge more money, every model gaining size, weight and numbness compared to the previous one, building atrocities like the 3GT and 5GT, building FWD cars, etc... are things that the BMW I used to love would NEVER had done before.

No more dogmas - The markets have changed and the requirements have gotten greater it is either sink or survive and this is not just BMW.

Go ahead and fill every possible niche out there, but do it by sticking to the company's values, not by selling out.

It is not selling out it is reacting the changes of the industry it isthe effect of progress. A BMW will always be a BMW but some models must have a broader spread of ability to be able to make an impact on the market- The X5 started this.

So please let your company know that a lot of "us" will be going elsewhere when purchasing our next car. Good luck with the Chinese.

I am sure you will be happy with whatever you choose. But will you?
My work within marketing is in the cycle for a new model is to make sure all parties involved develop the model to the brief set by our board of directors and create the communication aspects such as launch materials (film and photography) Which I am currently on creating with the BMW i cars.
I have worked with many models over the years but one thing always seems to be re-occurring. And that is originality.


Manufacturers are too obsessed with BMW that their car must match a BMW that they are forgetting about originality. And I am seeing that in marketing as well. They market like a BMW but is it a BMW?
China is not the only BMW market , as I stated originally that BMW has a global customer base and that all markets are catered for.
Scott26,

I appreciate the time you took to reply to my post. I do understand and agree with many points you make regarding the global market and its changes, BMW's push to remain independent, etc.

But I still believe that you can cater to many markets and increase sales volume without selling out, or by building ghastly looking cars like the 3GT. I'm willing to accept as many new niche BMW models as long as the core models stay true to the company's roots, but unfortunately, that's not the case. The latest generation of M cars have deviated so far from their predecessors that the M division is no longer the object of desire it used to be. Not to mention how grossly overpriced they are.

If things like the "Lime Rock Edition" and "DTM Champion Edition" M3s, and the massive proliferation of M badges on every possible model is not selling out, I don't know what is.
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      12-03-2012, 08:16 PM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simnew View Post
I think you guys are really over-reacting. The US has never liked hatch backs and in fairness to the rest of the world, they are globally rather popular.

I think its a well resolved design apart from the strange vent on the side (and this will be on the coupe too) and looks both sporty and elegant in both trims and certainly more distinctive than the saloon. It has a coupe roofline and has good proportions. Of course it is a 'niche' model and that is necessary because all the big german brands are so popular now, they are no longer exclusive like they used to be.

And let us remember, the reason this is happening is because of customer demand - if you think a world manufacturer goes into producing this kind of vehicle without the necessary research you are kidding yourself. Did people say this about the CLS when it came out ? Some thought is looked like a bannana, but in the end, it proved highly successful and is the most distinctive of all Mercs !
Your opinion is respected.
Unlike most of my fellow Americans, I like hatchbacks.
I think the A3 looks really cool and the new one, to us, looks great as well.
It has nice proportions and I love the Audi quattro drive system.

But, this 3GT has some odd lines to my eye. It appears to rise in the rear, and the side crease accentuates that. It accentuates what is already looking like a bulbous butt. To us a more 'murcan word, it's got a badonkadonk, but not in a pleasant way.
That's just one thing that strikes me.

This whole thing about making sedans "look" like coupes is silly to me. It's not just BMW, other manufacturers are doing it too, some with greater success than others.
Why is it silly? Well, in my opinion, if you want a coupe, then get the coupe. If you want a sedan, you know which one to get. If you need a sport wagon, BMW already has your 3 for that as well.
So, it begs the question of the need for this "coupe" like sedan that is not a wagon but is trying to serve that need while looking simply like a sedan with a hatchback, but it's not really a hatchback as it's supposed to seen as a coupe like sedan.

Perhaps the problem may be is that the styling looks confused as it doesn't really know what it wants to be, and thus it's trying to a bit of everything.
The original CLS shape and design was not this confused, and neither is the A7, or even the VW CC.
This GT doesn't really "cross" designs so much as it slams into all of them in a not so elegant way.

I don't mind different models for different niches, but perhaps BMW shouldn't name it a 3 "GT", and also not make it look like a 3 series either. I'm sure they could be more creative and give different niche models their own distinct look instead of looking like a genetically odd 3 series.
If this is a new and/or different model for a different niche, then make it look like that, and not like a 3 series.

Yes,the side vent, or whatever it is, is AWFUL looking. It looks like the designer felt compelled to put it there for whatever reason. It doesn't look cool, nor does it's shape relate to anything on the car. So, why?

Perhaps this is not so much Americans not liking hatchbacks as much as BMW 3 series fans not wanting this to look so related to the 3 series. Some comments do sound as if the poster thinks this GT will replace the sedan/saloon, and that's not true. I understand that BMW is simply trying to advance it's market share.
As I said, I like hatchbacks, and if this GT is supposed to be some odd coupe like sedan hatchback, then I'm not getting it.

As others have said, I'll also reserve final judgement after seeing it in person. Maybe it will look better as some cars do look better in 3 dimensions.

Question: Is the top/roof of the GT higher than the sedan at it's peak?
It appears to be a taller vehicle than the sedan.

Last edited by RPM90; 12-03-2012 at 08:37 PM.
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      12-03-2012, 08:20 PM   #304
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I'd choose the 5GT anytime over this just because it doesn't have that ugly side air intake that looks like it was designed by a girl
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      12-03-2012, 08:32 PM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski View Post
You and me both... I sense even SCOTT's getting frustrated with the same old barrage of bitching.
And why can't or shouldn't people express their opinions on the styling and whether they like it or not?

For the good business case, the opinions here should tell BMW something, and they likely know it may no sell well here in the US.
Yes, that doesn't matter for other parts of the world that may like them.

As for the styling question, each person has a right to express their likes and dislikes. To be frustrated that not everyone likes what you like will have you living in a world that will disappoint you often.

A Briton's opinion on style isn't any more valid than a Canadians or an Aussies, and yet, it's also just as valid as any of them. That's why it's called an "opinion".
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      12-03-2012, 08:55 PM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 宝马.e90 View Post
That's global sales. No one is disputing it's impact in the Europe and Asia markets...
On the contrary, many (most, in fact) of the posts here seem to question the rationale of this type of vehicle altogether.

I think the point of the post you replied to is precisely to answer those questions, with the answer being that the existing 5GT is selling in appreciable numbers in some markets. So then, probably, will the 3GT.

Quote:
...it's the NA market where the F07 has disappointed.
Yes and no. As SCOTT points out it has outsold the former E61. Should BMW sell the F11 here too? Maybe so. Should BMW sell the F34 here along with the F31? Maybe not. But whatever they choose to do, I suspect that the F34 will prove to be a success from a global perspective.
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      12-03-2012, 09:17 PM   #307
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Not very attractive. Ordinary looks. F30 sedan looks way better.
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      12-03-2012, 09:34 PM   #308
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The front reminds me of the BMW vision connecteddrive concept.
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