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      06-29-2012, 10:41 PM   #1
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$500 over invoice vs. $1000 over invoice

Do many people get the $500 over invoice deal? Is that still fair to the dealer? I was going to offer $1000 over invoice, but seems like some people are getting $500 over invoice and that would save a nice little slice on the monthly by having that extra $500 off.
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      06-30-2012, 12:27 AM   #2
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Honestly man car dealers buy cars for less then invoice and last time I bought a car it was with my dad and we managed 10% off of invoice although this was on a a Mercedes 2011 e350. Big volume dealers means more room to take money off because they buy cars in bulk and get bigger discounts off of invoice. I say do so more shopping
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      06-30-2012, 03:13 AM   #3
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Absolutely, visit more than 3 dealers!. They are ALL DIFFERENT.
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      06-30-2012, 06:18 AM   #4
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I wouldn't worry too much about fairness to the dealer. They are in the business to make money. They wouldn't sell the car to you if they weren't making money off the deal. It is up to you to get the best deal that you can. The dealer's power in the negotiation is that they can say no to you. Barring extreme circumstances, they aren't going to agree to a deal that they lose money on.
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      06-30-2012, 01:35 PM   #5
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It will also depend on the model.
We can order 50 328's vs. 5 33's, so a deal that we will take on a 328 will be different from one for 335.
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      06-30-2012, 01:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micosilver View Post
It will also depend on the model.
We can order 50 328's vs. 5 33's, so a deal that we will take on a 328 will be different from one for 335.
What about ActiveHybrid 3? Is your allocation as limited for those?

I want $500 over invoice.
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      06-30-2012, 02:29 PM   #7
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I'm currently able to get $700 over invoice on a 2013 335i, but am going to try to negotiate for $500 over
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      06-30-2012, 02:43 PM   #8
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My dealer offered me $500 over invoice for U.S. pricing and $1000 over invoice for European pricing.
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      06-30-2012, 02:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrazVT View Post
My dealer offered me $500 over invoice for U.S. pricing and $1000 over invoice for European pricing.
Which dealer?? On a 2013 335i or 328i?
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      06-30-2012, 03:01 PM   #10
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BMW of Fremont, here in the San Francisco bay area. It's a 2012 328i Sport Line, not a 2013 though.
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      06-30-2012, 03:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrazVT View Post
BMW of Fremont, here in the San Francisco bay area. It's a 2012 328i Sport Line, not a 2013 though.
That's why you got $500 over invoice. 328i's are in much greater supply than 335i and it's a 2012 versus 2013. If it was a 2013 335i, I would be calling your dealer right now to place an order.
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      06-30-2012, 03:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
That's why you got $500 over invoice. 328i's are in much greater supply than 335i and it's a 2012 versus 2013.

Plenty of people are getting 2013s for $0-500 over invoice ("invoice" referring to the vehicle base + vehicle options + destination fee, without adding MACO/Training/Etc. fees.)

In fact, mine was well under invoice (over $1k under) after rebate-based discounts (Olympic discount + BMW FS discount)

$500 over invoice is a good deal for a dealership, especially for a car they don't have to waste time "selling" and one that doesn't waste their money sitting on a lot. Being an educated consumer is worth a lot and goes a long, long way.

It's been posted already many times on the board. Walk in with accurate numbers, know what you want, and it shouldn't be that difficult. If a dealer is uncooperative, go to a different one. It's quite simple, just takes a bit of time and patience. Make sure the instant you walk in and talk to a Client Advisor, you ask them to grab a sales manager (First thing that you should be asking for). They are who is needed to make the deal, so you might as well get them involved right away instead of having the back-and-forth. They should appreciate your seriousness.

Trying to negotiate over the phone/email will only get you so far, and often the opposite direction that you want to go (they will instantly turn you down and tell you sorry no bye). You must do all the negotiating in person if you want to score a deal. Get it written down and signed.
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      06-30-2012, 03:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
What about ActiveHybrid 3? Is your allocation as limited for those?

I want $500 over invoice.
There is no allocation yet for those, and we already have a waiting list, so I doubt that $500 over will be possible.

But we will see...
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      06-30-2012, 03:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbs View Post
Plenty of people are getting 2013s for $0-500 over invoice ("invoice" referring to the vehicle base + vehicle options + destination fee, without adding MACO/Training/Etc. fees.)

In fact, mine was well under invoice (over $1k under) after rebate-based discounts (Olympic discount + BMW FS discount)

$500 over invoice is a good deal for a dealership, especially for a car they don't have to waste time "selling" and one that doesn't waste their money sitting on a lot. Being an educated consumer is worth a lot and goes a long, long way.

It's been posted already many times on the board. Walk in with accurate numbers, know what you want, and it shouldn't be that difficult. If a dealer is uncooperative, go to a different one. It's quite simple, just takes a bit of time and patience. Make sure the instant you walk in and talk to a Client Advisor, you ask them to grab a sales manager (First thing that you should be asking for). They are who is needed to make the deal, so you might as well get them involved right away instead of having the back-and-forth. They should appreciate your seriousness.

Trying to negotiate over the phone/email will only get you so far, and often the opposite direction that you want to go (they will instantly turn you down and tell you sorry no bye). You must do all the negotiating in person if you want to score a deal. Get it written down and signed.


You keep posting about $500 over being a "winning deal" or a "good deal" for the dealership, but how does it make sense giving away spots for cars lot yet built without any profit? Sure, once we have a few of those on the floor - then we can deal in volume, but why would dealers give them away, and ending up with no cars for people that are willing to give them some profit?

There will be people knowlingly willing to pay more for a car in stock, instead of waiting 2-3 months to save $500. You might not be one of them, but they also deserve a chance to get what they want.
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      06-30-2012, 08:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbs View Post
Plenty of people are getting 2013s for $0-500 over invoice ("invoice" referring to the vehicle base + vehicle options + destination fee, without adding MACO/Training/Etc. fees.)
You have a good handle on things regarding buying a vehicle.

The only thing I do not agree with you on is the "MACO and training" fee.
You've written in other threads that those fee's are NOT part of the "invoice". In fact, they ARE part of the invoice.
If you want a $500 over invoice sale, then you ask to be shown the actual invoice of the car you want, and add $500 to it.
The invoice will show the "MACO and training" fees.
Also, on bmwconfig.com, "training" is shown on the invoice, because it is part of the invoice.

Now, it is absolutely true that one could negotiate a selling price such that MACO and training are removed. But that would then mean that you are negotiating a below invoice deal. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's great if you can get the dealer to sell you a 3 for under invoice.
So, if your MACO and training add up to $450, then you ask for a selling price reflecting an additional $450 off, then you'd be getting the car for $450 below invoice.

I just think it's best to inform people correctly of what "invoice" actually is, and then inform people that they can try to negotiate below invoice.
If people get the wrong idea that MACO and training are not part of the invoice, then their going to get upset when it's included, thinking it shouldn't be. By knowing that MACO and training are part of the invoice, then they can tell their dealer they will pay $500 above invoice MINUS MACO and training. Then they can find out if their dealer will do that sale.
Then the customer is fully informed.
When people ask if $500 over invoice is a good offer, then they need to know that BMW invoice will include MACO and training.

I'm sure the reason why bmwconfig.com shows training fee, and doesn't include MACO, is because MACO is a regional fee and it varies according to market. Training fee is a set fee, MACO is variable. Some small markets may not have MACO at all, and larger markets may have a $300 or more MACO.

This is my 3rd BMW, and on each one the invoice included and showed MACO and training fees.
I offered my dealer $500 above actual invoice knowing that MACO and training will be on there, because it is part of the "invoice".

Other than that detail, I think you've got great information to offer to those with questions.
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      06-30-2012, 09:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
You have a good handle on things regarding buying a vehicle.

The only thing I do not agree with you on is the "MACO and training" fee.
You've written in other threads that those fee's are NOT part of the "invoice". In fact, they ARE part of the invoice.
If you want a $500 over invoice sale, then you ask to be shown the actual invoice of the car you want, and add $500 to it.
The invoice will show the "MACO and training" fees.
Also, on bmwconfig.com, "training" is shown on the invoice, because it is part of the invoice.

Now, it is absolutely true that one could negotiate a selling price such that MACO and training are removed. But that would then mean that you are negotiating a below invoice deal. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's great if you can get the dealer to sell you a 3 for under invoice.
So, if your MACO and training add up to $450, then you ask for a selling price reflecting an additional $450 off, then you'd be getting the car for $450 below invoice.

I just think it's best to inform people correctly of what "invoice" actually is, and then inform people that they can try to negotiate below invoice.
If people get the wrong idea that MACO and training are not part of the invoice, then their going to get upset when it's included, thinking it shouldn't be. By knowing that MACO and training are part of the invoice, then they can tell their dealer they will pay $500 above invoice MINUS MACO and training. Then they can find out if their dealer will do that sale.
Then the customer is fully informed.
When people ask if $500 over invoice is a good offer, then they need to know that BMW invoice will include MACO and training.

I'm sure the reason why bmwconfig.com shows training fee, and doesn't include MACO, is because MACO is a regional fee and it varies according to market. Training fee is a set fee, MACO is variable. Some small markets may not have MACO at all, and larger markets may have a $300 or more MACO.

This is my 3rd BMW, and on each one the invoice included and showed MACO and training fees.
I offered my dealer $500 above actual invoice knowing that MACO and training will be on there, because it is part of the "invoice".

Other than that detail, I think you've got great information to offer to those with questions.
100% spot on. These threads where people are trying to negotiate with the dealer on invoice, ignoring TRN and MACO crack me up.

More power to them if it works, but the dealers have to pay BMW that money. It stands to reason they're not going to waive it for you and eat the cost.

This is the invoice for a 335d I almost purchased last year. Look at the bottom, MACO and Training on the dealer invoice. From BMW. Included. Right there with destination.

Notice that it's not included with MSRP pricing, but it is there on the invoice. Plain as day...

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Last edited by JustinTJ; 06-30-2012 at 09:43 PM.
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      06-30-2012, 09:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micosilver View Post
You keep posting about $500 over being a "winning deal" or a "good deal" for the dealership, but how does it make sense giving away spots for cars lot yet built without any profit? Sure, once we have a few of those on the floor - then we can deal in volume, but why would dealers give them away, and ending up with no cars for people that are willing to give them some profit?

There will be people knowlingly willing to pay more for a car in stock, instead of waiting 2-3 months to save $500. You might not be one of them, but they also deserve a chance to get what they want.
There are 2 buyers in this world: the educated and the no-clue-how-to-negoitate. I'm guessing you are a CA, so you should already know this.

Bob (a bimmerpost member) walks into your dealership. He grabs the sales manager and offers 500 over invoice minus incentives to order the car. You spend 40 minutes on the credit check, ordering, etc. and are done with Bob. The car comes in, Bob picks it up and you spend no money on floor space, financing, etc.

Net profit from Bob: 500 + CSI (~2500 on a 328). You most likely got your min. though I would assume, but hey do more of these and you'll get a volume bonus.

Donald "the dumbass" walks on the lot. "Oh hey that 328 with the two tone modern line interior is way cool". Of course Don wants a test drive, wants to look things over, get his wife in there to see it, and take up your time. You end up spending hours with Don the "dumbass". Will Don end up buying from you...maybe...maybe not (not as sure as Bob that's for sure).

Say Don the dumbass does decide on buying. Well he likely knows nothing about rebates and such forth so you milk him. $1800 over invoice and keep the credits.

Net profit: 1800 + CSI + creds (if apply)

On the other hand, he took up hours of your time and was not a guaranteed sale like Bob. Plus that car sat on your lot for quite some time eating up sales profit. Who is the better bet, well I guess neither or both depending on how you look at it. Less money for a quicker and sure deal or more money for a time consuming gamble at best. Got to prepare and cater to both crowds.
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      06-30-2012, 10:11 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrazVT View Post
My dealer offered me $500 over invoice for U.S. pricing and $1000 over invoice for European pricing.
Wow, I am surprised the margin over invoice he offered was LOWER on US delivery? I was of the understanding that Euro delivery doesn't hit the dealer's allocation, and thus most dealers are generally more flexible on the price for ED, since it's like a "extra" sale...while with US delivery sales they are working to maximize the margin they can earn on each of the limited number of allocations they have...
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      06-30-2012, 10:18 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by lukeb817 View Post
Wow, I am surprised the margin over invoice he offered was LOWER on US delivery? I was of the understanding that Euro delivery doesn't hit the dealer's allocation, and thus most dealers are generally more flexible on the price for ED, since it's like a "extra" sale...while with US delivery sales they are working to maximize the margin they can earn on each of the limited number of allocations they have...
Because there is more dealer money post sale with a US delivery on CSI cash. With an ED sale the amount over invoice as the only profit. Nothing else.

Which is why EDs have a discount. They take the CSI money from the dealer and give it to the purchaser.
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      07-01-2012, 12:08 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinTJ View Post
Because there is more dealer money post sale with a US delivery on CSI cash. With an ED sale the amount over invoice as the only profit. Nothing else.

Which is why EDs have a discount. They take the CSI money from the dealer and give it to the purchaser.
Makes sense
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      07-01-2012, 12:13 AM   #21
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Lots of interesting data here! Thanks all!
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      07-01-2012, 10:11 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
Lots of interesting data here! Thanks all!
This really is a great thread, especially with the dealer input!

In the end it's all about feeling good about the deal you got.
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