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      01-15-2013, 11:53 PM   #243
clarence
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Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
Scott this is the problem that many have been warning BMW about for a while now. If everyone has a BMW what makes a BMW special?
Wht warning? U mean warning to volume makers cos their higher trim level cars will get crowded out, like in Europe?
Wht makes a car special is how good it is, not how many ppl has one. In many European markets BMW/MB/Audis are everywhere, but it doesn't mean they're less premium.
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      01-16-2013, 12:18 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by clarence View Post
Sorry, the N20 is only made in 3 plants for all the production lines BMW have worldwide. The completed engines are test run on a bench & the power & torque are recorded for every engine. This is before shipping out to the relevant plants to be installed into the actual car.
As I (& many) said before, the major parts between 20i & 28i are identical (turbo, block, injectors, camshaft etc), & the binning theory has never been categorically denied by insiders even on threads where they have directly participated.
But the problem with that logic is that the variation is way too big. We are not talking about ~5HP difference, but rather 60HP.

If your binning hypothesis was true, then the distribution of the N20's output coming out of the assembly line, which would be roughly bell shaped, would have to have its peak around 210HP, with the sigma of the distribution on the order of 50HP. But that's just crazy. For one thing, then the distribution of the output for 328i would not peak at 240HP, but rather a falling distribution that cuts off abruptly on the lower end. For the 320i, it would cut off on the high end.

Alternatively, the peak could be at 240HP, in which case the sigma of the distribution would have to be around 100HP. That's even crazier.

It's not inconceivable that they do some testing on the block or whatever other parts, and use the lower quality ones for the 320i, since it would not have to withstand as much stress. But that difference in quality is very unlikely to be the direct cause of the difference in output. It could make a difference in the longevity of the engine when chipped, but that's not the same thing.
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      01-16-2013, 12:28 AM   #245
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Sign me up I want 1 been waiting for a reasonable priced BMW just love them
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      01-16-2013, 12:29 AM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiboy72 View Post
So you think passion for the car is connected to which model people select? That a 335i owner has more passion that a 328i owner?

Passion for the car has nothing with getting the top model or the price of the car. I passion was connected to the price, then I should have much more passion for my car yhan you since I paid $120 000 for a 320i...

I got the 320i with the M Sport adaptive driving package because it's a great driving machine, and the most fun I have is driving on twisty roads going a maximum of 60mph. For this I don't need to pay $50 000 extra in taxes for a 335i.

Unless you live in Germany you will never use the full potential of a 335i anyway, and then only when there is little traffic.

I'm sorry buy let me rephrase because i don't want anyone getting the wrong impression about me.

I stated that because the 320i is so cheap its battling right at Toyota, Honda, Ford doors and people when they see the price will get it undoubtedly just for the name "BMW" and the passion isn't there. Bragging rights just to say you have a BMW to your buddies in live in Florida and 99% of the time i see (F30) there complete barebones car. The person car is trash dirty, drive like asses and think they own the road. Im not putting anyone down but the 320i will appeal to people that otherwise would never get a BMW.
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      01-16-2013, 12:32 AM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGuyadeen
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiboy72 View Post
So you think passion for the car is connected to which model people select? That a 335i owner has more passion that a 328i owner?

Passion for the car has nothing with getting the top model or the price of the car. I passion was connected to the price, then I should have much more passion for my car yhan you since I paid $120 000 for a 320i...

I got the 320i with the M Sport adaptive driving package because it's a great driving machine, and the most fun I have is driving on twisty roads going a maximum of 60mph. For this I don't need to pay $50 000 extra in taxes for a 335i.

Unless you live in Germany you will never use the full potential of a 335i anyway, and then only when there is little traffic.

I'm sorry buy let me rephrase because i don't want anyone getting the wrong impression about me.

I stated that because the 320i is so cheap its battling right at Toyota, Honda, Ford doors and people when they see the price will get it undoubtedly just for the name "BMW" and the passion isn't there. Bragging rights just to say you have a BMW to your buddies in live in Florida and 99% of the time i see (F30) there complete barebones car. The person car is trash dirty, drive like asses and think they own the road. Im not putting anyone down but the 320i will appeal to people that otherwise would never get a BMW.
I disagree I think it's a great move on BMW they want to put more drivers on the road why go JAP
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      01-16-2013, 12:37 AM   #248
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I have a lot of respect for the posters of this forum and iv'e been on here for a while and Iv'e talked to some amazing people.

My previous post on pg.8 was in no wayy to offend anyone or sound like a prick.

I just feel bad that BMW would do something like this, I see bunches of people in Miami who drive BMW and cut me off, try to race, act like they know something, but people come out of bushes and buy a BMW just for the name and to brag and drive fast and have no care in the world.

This is obviously not the case for a lot of owners who go in for the right reason and have respect for other drivers. BMW's is kinda of like martial arts just because you have a black belt doesn't mean you go fighting everyone for no reason. I can name 6 occasions of bmw drivers cutting me off and trying to race and looking at me with such rudeness
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      01-16-2013, 12:39 AM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berardi3 View Post
I disagree I think it's a great move on BMW they want to put more drivers on the road why go JAP
I agree too man!! I should have rephrased my first post. A lot of people buy bmw's because of the passion and are not rude drivers. Having a fast car means added responsibility and im saying that a lot of young drivers, people who would buy regular cars, The 320 will appeal to them for the wrong reason and go about speeding and challenging other drivers
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      01-16-2013, 04:59 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Propagator View Post
But the problem with that logic is that the variation is way too big. We are not talking about ~5HP difference, but rather 60HP.

If your binning hypothesis was true, then the distribution of the N20's output coming out of the assembly line, which would be roughly bell shaped, would have to have its peak around 210HP, with the sigma of the distribution on the order of 50HP. But that's just crazy. For one thing, then the distribution of the output for 328i would not peak at 240HP, but rather a falling distribution that cuts off abruptly on the lower end. For the 320i, it would cut off on the high end.

Alternatively, the peak could be at 240HP, in which case the sigma of the distribution would have to be around 100HP. That's even crazier.

It's not inconceivable that they do some testing on the block or whatever other parts, and use the lower quality ones for the 320i, since it would not have to withstand as much stress. But that difference in quality is very unlikely to be the direct cause of the difference in output. It could make a difference in the longevity of the engine when chipped, but that's not the same thing.
The variance need not be that big. As we all know, cars with 28i are regularly dyno'ed with much more than 245ps. It can very simply be that anything less than 245ps on the factory bench will be destined as a 20i, & anything more a 28i.
BMW claims the 20i have 184ps & the 28i have 245ps, those are only factory claims (i.e. minimum baseline) & it's perfectly fine to beat those figures on a regular basis. There are evidence that the 20i have more than 184ps, e.g. Autozeitung tested a 520i & recorded 0-100 time of 7.3s.
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      01-16-2013, 05:18 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGuyadeen View Post
I'm sorry buy let me rephrase because i don't want anyone getting the wrong impression about me.

I stated that because the 320i is so cheap its battling right at Toyota, Honda, Ford doors and people when they see the price will get it undoubtedly just for the name "BMW" and the passion isn't there. Bragging rights just to say you have a BMW to your buddies in live in Florida and 99% of the time i see (F30) there complete barebones car. The person car is trash dirty, drive like asses and think they own the road. Im not putting anyone down but the 320i will appeal to people that otherwise would never get a BMW.
I see bunch of 335i owners do that too. Even some M3 owners drives like that in Bay area.

I don't think 320i will be immune to immature drivers. But i think you are exaggerating.
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      01-16-2013, 06:00 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahzari
I wonder if a tune can get you back to 328i power levels...

Regardless, this car will sell incredibly well.
$600 tune and its quicker than the 328i
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      01-16-2013, 06:04 AM   #253
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Sharp pricing in the U.S
In Australia I paid $69k for a 320i with M Sport package, business nav, bixenons, sunroof, extended connectivity and mirrors package.
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      01-16-2013, 07:40 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pamaga2007
Sharp pricing in the U.S
In Australia I paid $69k for a 320i with M Sport package, business nav, bixenons, sunroof, extended connectivity and mirrors package.
I guess the destination fee in Australia is $30k
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      01-16-2013, 07:50 AM   #255
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Australian dollars ARE different from American dollars, you know.
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      01-16-2013, 08:06 AM   #256
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Oh and the 320i configurator is online...

This is a great base car, even a great car period. You don't get top-of-the line features (no lines) and it's a 1-sec slower to 60 compared to the 328i... yeah, but you get a very attractive 320i for $38,000 MSRP, whereas the equivalent build on the 328i is $44,000. So we're not talking about $3,000 difference, but $6,000 (in my builds).

I bet even some BMW enthusiasts will be sensitive to that.

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      01-16-2013, 08:56 AM   #257
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At $46k fully loaded, this thing is going to sell like crazy. If I were BMW though, I'd have bumped this one to 200hp and called it a 325i, the 328i to 275 and called it a 330i and the 335i bumped to 330hp with the badge left alone
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      01-16-2013, 09:07 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci View Post
At $46k fully loaded, this thing is going to sell like crazy. If I were BMW though, I'd have bumped this one to 200hp and called it a 325i, the 328i to 275 and called it a 330i and the 335i bumped to 330hp with the badge left alone
It's $46k loaded, but it's missing a lot options from 328/335 like HUD and Dynamic Handling Package.
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      01-16-2013, 10:48 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci View Post
If I were BMW though, I'd have bumped this one to 200hp and called it a 325i
There's a 25i version of the N20 producing 218ps, but it's currently only fitted to the F20.
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      01-16-2013, 11:00 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by NGuyadeen View Post
I have a lot of respect for the posters of this forum and iv'e been on here for a while and Iv'e talked to some amazing people.

My previous post on pg.8 was in no wayy to offend anyone or sound like a prick.

I just feel bad that BMW would do something like this, I see bunches of people in Miami who drive BMW and cut me off, try to race, act like they know something, but people come out of bushes and buy a BMW just for the name and to brag and drive fast and have no care in the world.

This is obviously not the case for a lot of owners who go in for the right reason and have respect for other drivers. BMW's is kinda of like martial arts just because you have a black belt doesn't mean you go fighting everyone for no reason. I can name 6 occasions of bmw drivers cutting me off and trying to race and looking at me with such rudeness
There is a cognitive bias called "observational selection bias". This bias causes us to believe an observation occurs with higher frequency, when really we're just more likely to observe them because we have some reason to selectively notice those events. I'm not accusing you of some mental defect. Cognitive bias is a well known phenomenon that everyone suffers from. Even scientists who formed the theory of cognitive bias have shown that awareness of the biases doesn't negate their effect. I think your observation of the aggressiveness of BMW drivers might be -- to some degree -- observational selection bias.

That's not to say it is entirely false. Sporty cars, in general, attract drivers who are more aggressive. It's also true that Miami is especially fully of aggressive drivers.

As a business, BMW has an obligation to serve its shareholders. That means selling more cars. That means expanding its line-up. The natural consequence of this is that some brand exclusivity will be sacrificed. I'm not saying this makes me happy (personally, I don't care), but it's inevitable.
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      01-16-2013, 12:48 PM   #261
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I think this is a great thread and shows the true colors of many. As has been mentioned before, having an inexpensive entry allows BMW the funds to develop and build the wonderful true drivers cars that we all love. Because as much as we want to think they build the cars for us, they are still a business with one thing in mind...to make money.

And another issue that has been mostly grazed over....I wonder if there will be a 320si released to the states? An M3-lite if you will that the E30 318is was to the M3. That would be an awesome addition to the lineup.
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      01-16-2013, 01:28 PM   #262
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Is it me or the 320i x-Drive with sport pkg dosent include the M-Sport Suspensio.
Only the rear drive the gets it.
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      01-16-2013, 01:29 PM   #263
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Porsche got into SUVs and sedans and everyone cried about it, but the profits from those "non-enthusiast" cars let them keep making the cutting edge models like the GT3RS. If you want M cars in the future you have to accept that BMW needs to sell lots of 4 cylinder models to make cash and keep the corporate average fuel economy numbers up.

Plus BMW has sold a 318 and 320 and even a 316 in the past. This is nothing new for them.
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      01-16-2013, 01:41 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teemo Panda View Post
Is it me or the 320i x-Drive with sport pkg dosent include the M-Sport Suspensio.
Only the rear drive the gets it.
That is the way it is on the 328 and 335 too.
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