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      03-05-2013, 03:43 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by mtgswede View Post
I did, I wanted to like the S4 so much but after driving it, I could really tell the front wheel bias. Never owned an Audi so the difference was pretty apparant to me. I also was really dissappointed in the dated interior. Just doesn't hold a candle to the F30. Now if I had to choose between an E90 and the Audi, I would have taken the Audi just on the basis of how horrid the E90 interior was.
What front wheel bias?

You realize that all/most of Audi AWD cars have a rear power bias, right? (I don't know about the A3, A4/6/7/8, or the avants/SUVs)
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      03-05-2013, 03:58 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
Not sure if this was ever discussed, but does the xdrive with DHP actually lower the car? I understand it gives the option to stiffen it, but not sure it lowers the car. You could always throw some springs to get the 1" drop, shouldn't mess with the adjustable dampers, and I'm guessing will run you maybe $500 installed?
it doesn't lower it.
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      03-05-2013, 04:12 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
it doesn't lower it.
I thought DHP lowers it 10mm?
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      03-05-2013, 04:14 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbolag View Post
What front wheel bias?

You realize that all/most of Audi AWD cars have a rear power bias, right? (I don't know about the A3, A4/6/7/8, or the avants/SUVs)
The transverse engine mounted VAG vehicles use a Haldex AWD system, so the nominal torque split of the vehicle is 100-0. This includes all golf based cars (A3, Golf-R, S3, RS3 etc) and all VW AWD cars, Touareg is only one that doesn't if I'm not mistaken.

Every other current gen Audi uses a longitudinal engine layout with either quattro V: 40-60 torsen center diff or quattro VI: 40-60 crown center diff.

Edit - even the previous B7 S4 used the 40-60 split with quattro V. The main problem was the nose heavy V8 which lead to massive understeer - the B8.5 platform is lighter but really gets bailed out by the rear torque vectoring differential, which combats the natural chassis' tendency to understeer while accelerating - largely due to the weight transfer to the back tires when exiting a corner.
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      03-05-2013, 05:27 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
I thought DHP lowers it 10mm?
Not on xDrive.
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      03-05-2013, 07:40 PM   #204
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I owned and S4 prior to my E90. It was an absolute beast. It was also great in the snow with the AWD. For me the car was kind of tight interior wise and the S4 is becoming quite dated in its appearance. I did look at Audi again prior to buying my current F30 and I could not get passed the fact that the Audi has not really changed since I owned my 2007 S4. Like I said it was a fun car to drive but for me the BMW is more refined and still powerful as well.
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      03-06-2013, 09:18 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Itgb View Post
Not on xDrive.
So does DHP still get you upgraded suspension components like springs (probably not since ride height doesn't change), sways and endlinks? Or are we just talking about adjustable dampers? If not, this might explain why I've read complaints of 335ix understeer issues.
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      03-06-2013, 09:46 AM   #206
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The S4 will always be nose heavy. It's just that they have all the electronics and AWD to compensate. The 50:50 weight dist. just feels so much more natural. Also, if you do lose control, it's much easier to manage a well balanced car. I do feel the 335i being a little more nose heavy than the 328i and that little bit is noticeable.
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      03-06-2013, 09:58 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by DarkTrigger View Post
The S4 will always be nose heavy. It's just that they have all the electronics and AWD to compensate. The 50:50 weight dist. just feels so much more natural. Also, if you do lose control, it's much easier to manage a well balanced car. I do feel the 335i being a little more nose heavy than the 328i and that little bit is noticeable.
I think it might be that the B8 chassis has to support FWD layouts for the A4/A5, so the engine is definitely mounted further forward relative to the front axle than the 3 series. But once you throw on xdrive and the N55, the 3 series chassis becomes much less balanced with ~300 extra lbs in the nose area.
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      03-06-2013, 10:59 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
I think it might be that the B8 chassis has to support FWD layouts for the A4/A5, so the engine is definitely mounted further forward relative to the front axle than the 3 series. But once you throw on xdrive and the N55, the 3 series chassis becomes much less balanced with ~300 extra lbs in the nose area.
Hardly. It's like 52:48 with xDrive.
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      03-06-2013, 11:22 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean10mm View Post
Hardly. It's like 52:48 with xDrive.
Source?

Everything below is from here.

Simplistic calculation

328i (NA spec AT) curb weight 3461lb with 50/50 implies F1730.5/R1730.5

335ix (NA spec AT) curb weight 3710lb - assume worst case 249lb front implies weight F1979.5/R1730.5 gives 53.36/46.64 split. Generally, a car with 55/45 is labeled as a "pig" in the weight balance department.

The moment of inertia used to generate the yaw dynamics is most important for cornering, so the fact that all that weight is so far forward will definitely negatively affect handling (since I = MR^2).
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      03-06-2013, 11:33 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bad335
I could not get passed the fact that the Audi has not really changed since I owned my 2007 S4.
Huh? The S4 was completely redone for 2010 MY. Entirely different body, engine, etc.
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      03-06-2013, 11:47 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
I think it might be that the B8 chassis has to support FWD layouts for the A4/A5, so the engine is definitely mounted further forward relative to the front axle than the 3 series. But once you throw on xdrive and the N55, the 3 series chassis becomes much less balanced with ~300 extra lbs in the nose area.
The A5 differentiates itself from the A4 by coming in with Quattro (AWD) only.

Only the A3 and A4 starts with FWD.
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      03-06-2013, 11:50 AM   #212
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Huh? The S4 was completely redone for 2010 MY. Entirely different body, engine, etc.
I think it was redone for 2009 MY. But I agree. New Body, New Interior, New LED lights. Everything New.

Dropped V8 in favor of 3.0 Supercharger.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
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      03-06-2013, 12:28 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
So does DHP still get you upgraded suspension components like springs (probably not since ride height doesn't change), sways and endlinks? Or are we just talking about adjustable dampers? If not, this might explain why I've read complaints of 335ix understeer issues.
According to the part numbers listed in real oem, the sways and endlinks do not get upgraded to the M-sport versions with DHP on xDrive cars. Like you said, since the ride height remains the same, I think the only thing DHP gets you on xDrive cars is adjustable dampers. To me, this gives the S4 an advantage since you can't actually get a lowered sport suspension in the F30 xDrive.
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      03-06-2013, 12:33 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceking4u
I think it was redone for 2009 MY. But I agree. New Body, New Interior, New LED lights. Everything New.

Dropped V8 in favor of 3.0 Supercharger.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
'09 was old body style and convertible only.
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      03-06-2013, 01:01 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
Source?

Everything below is from here.

Simplistic calculation

328i (NA spec AT) curb weight 3461lb with 50/50 implies F1730.5/R1730.5

335ix (NA spec AT) curb weight 3710lb - assume worst case 249lb front implies weight F1979.5/R1730.5 gives 53.36/46.64 split. Generally, a car with 55/45 is labeled as a "pig" in the weight balance department.

The moment of inertia used to generate the yaw dynamics is most important for cornering, so the fact that all that weight is so far forward will definitely negatively affect handling (since I = MR^2).
BMW USA lists it for the 2013 335i xdrive:

WeightUnladen 3695(3710)
lbWeight distribution, front/rear Manual Transmission52.2/47.8 %
Weight distribution, front/rear - Automatic Transmission52.6/47.4 %

I don't pull enough g through turns at stop lights to care about this and I sure as hell can't afford to race my 335 against your S4 at the track. Also, I am not doing any calculations, but I would guess that your tire setup can make up for a lot.

On another note... Is service still included for Audis? It was when I had my S4, but I thought I heard they were discontinuing that.
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      03-06-2013, 01:35 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckimmel
Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
Source?

Everything below is from here.

Simplistic calculation

328i (NA spec AT) curb weight 3461lb with 50/50 implies F1730.5/R1730.5

335ix (NA spec AT) curb weight 3710lb - assume worst case 249lb front implies weight F1979.5/R1730.5 gives 53.36/46.64 split. Generally, a car with 55/45 is labeled as a "pig" in the weight balance department.

The moment of inertia used to generate the yaw dynamics is most important for cornering, so the fact that all that weight is so far forward will definitely negatively affect handling (since I = MR^2).
BMW USA lists it for the 2013 335i xdrive:

WeightUnladen 3695(3710)
lbWeight distribution, front/rear Manual Transmission52.2/47.8 %
Weight distribution, front/rear - Automatic Transmission52.6/47.4 %

I don't pull enough g through turns at stop lights to care about this and I sure as hell can't afford to race my 335 against your S4 at the track. Also, I am not doing any calculations, but I would guess that your tire setup can make up for a lot.

On another note... Is service still included for Audis? It was when I had my S4, but I thought I heard they were discontinuing that.
When I was shopping for the S4 around Nov last year service was not included. Another reason why you really have to love the S4 to justify passing the 335i. I just could not justify passing the EB II

The 335i x drive is lighter than the S4
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      03-06-2013, 01:42 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckimmel View Post
BMW USA lists it for the 2013 335i xdrive:

WeightUnladen 3695(3710)
lbWeight distribution, front/rear – Manual Transmission52.2/47.8 %
Weight distribution, front/rear -– Automatic Transmission52.6/47.4 %

I don't pull enough g through turns at stop lights to care about this and I sure as hell can't afford to race my 335 against your S4 at the track. Also, I am not doing any calculations, but I would guess that your tire setup can make up for a lot.

On another note... Is service still included for Audis? It was when I had my S4, but I thought I heard they were discontinuing that.
I definitely stand corrected! That weight balance isn't too bad, I think the engine mounted behind the front axle really helps mitigate the imbalance. I agree on the cost of tracking a car, and you are right that the most improvement would be found with wheels/tires upgrades. Of course, certain components of the car can be swapped and some can't.

My thinking is that a 328i m-sport will handle much better than an S4, even with active torque vectoring. Whereas a 335ix with stock suspension (maybe stiffer dampers) will definitely not outclass the S4 in the handling department.

Audi charges $800 for the 50k maintenance package. With a MT, this isn't much more than inspections and oil changes. Wear items are not covered like wipers/brake pads. With a DCT, the transmission flush at 35k runs around $400, so the plan is worth it. The problem with German sports cars are the significant *repairs* needed after the warranty ends. I've read many bad things about both BMW/Audi service dept's giving under 50k maintenance/inspections to the interns who don't know WTF they're doing. Most BMW drivers in the US are leases, so this isn't a concern for them.
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      03-06-2013, 01:45 PM   #218
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Yup, again, my point is that the S4 is a great car, but the BMW ends up being a less costly vehicle to own.

Also, when I turned in my S4, the dealership charged me for the wheel damage to the BBS CH 18s that came on it. I didn't really know they were damaged, but I think the charge was around $700. When I turned in my 335, I knew I had damaged the the wheels and assumed that I would pay for them. They were so bad, I could hear it going down the highway and I didn't get charged.

I suppose this is dealer specific more than the manufacturer, but it still added up to one hell of an expensive experience.
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      03-06-2013, 02:01 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckimmel View Post
Yup, again, my point is that the S4 is a great car, but the BMW ends up being a less costly vehicle to own.

Also, when I turned in my S4, the dealership charged me for the wheel damage to the BBS CH 18s that came on it. I didn't really know they were damaged, but I think the charge was around $700. When I turned in my 335, I knew I had damaged the the wheels and assumed that I would pay for them. They were so bad, I could hear it going down the highway and I didn't get charged.

I suppose this is dealer specific more than the manufacturer, but it still added up to one hell of an expensive experience.
I think the difference is pretty marginal if buying new for the first years while in warranty. The drivetrain in the S4 is certainly more complex, and if you have a problem with the diff/DCT out of warranty then you are pretty f'ed. But you could say the same thing about an M3.

I've never leased a car so I don't know how the buyback works. I do know that Audi financial is not very keen on leasing their cars, so the residual values are horrible. BMW would probably prefer to move you into a new lease rather than quibbling over wheel damage. But that's definitely dealer stuff, not the OEM (similar how it's difficult to get Audi's near invoice). I didn't realize you could get BBS wheels on a factory car, was it CPO or something?
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      03-06-2013, 02:07 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckimmel
I suppose this is dealer specific more than the manufacturer, but it still added up to one hell of an expensive experience.
Dealer doesn't care, they don't own the car. Brand specific, sure, could be. Could also just be inspector specific. Whatever human looked at the car and reported the damage, or didn't....
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