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      03-07-2013, 09:59 AM   #265
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I got my BMW 1k under invoice with no MACO and training fees after all incentives. Never heard that from an Audi s4 owner. I think the reason it holds its value better is because it you gotta buy it near MSRP.
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      03-07-2013, 10:07 AM   #266
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I got my BMW 1k under invoice with no MACO and training fees after all incentives. Never heard that from an Audi s4 owner. I think the reason it holds its value better is because it you gotta buy it near MSRP.
Got mine 1k over invoice w/o being too savvy with negotiating. Was offered 5k off 56k MSRP earlier on a new 2012 S4 around November but was still on the fence with the 335. I got financing of 1.9% with AFS, compared with 3.5% I was offered by BMWFS - if I didn't finance with them, then they refused to sell their 335 allocation for less than 2k over invoice and obviously wouldn't give me incentives. I got into it with the GM of BMW Ann Arbor, the dude was a total DB about it, and I pulled out of my 335 order.
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      03-07-2013, 11:29 AM   #267
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Got mine 1k over invoice w/o being too savvy with negotiating. Was offered 5k off 56k MSRP earlier on a new 2012 S4 around November but was still on the fence with the 335. I got financing of 1.9% with AFS, compared with 3.5% I was offered by BMWFS - if I didn't finance with them, then they refused to sell their 335 allocation for less than 2k over invoice and obviously wouldn't give me incentives. I got into it with the GM of BMW Ann Arbor, the dude was a total DB about it, and I pulled out of my 335 order.
Back in my Audi days, I test drove an M sports coupe or whatever it was..? Been too long to remember, but i didn't end up in it. Anyhow, the BMW sales guy and I were conversing about how few Audis were on the road around Indy at that time. He was saying that Audis were such great cars that they should be selling better in our market given the AWD, reputation, styling, but they weren't. He had previously been an Audi salesperson and said that Audi just wasn't taking the steps to move cars the way BMW was then.

My experience with my S4 was..."Here is the sticker, take it or leave it."

From your post, and the number of Audis I see on the road these days, I would guess things have changed. When I drove an S4 I would occasionally see another S4 on the road, but now I see at least one S car per day and I can see several on some days.

Next time around I may run the Audi numbers. What was the sticker on your car?
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      03-07-2013, 11:43 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by ckimmel View Post
Back in my Audi days, I test drove an M sports coupe or whatever it was..? Been too long to remember, but i didn't end up in it. Anyhow, the BMW sales guy and I were conversing about how few Audis were on the road around Indy at that time. He was saying that Audis were such great cars that they should be selling better in our market given the AWD, reputation, styling, but they weren't. He had previously been an Audi salesperson and said that Audi just wasn't taking the steps to move cars the way BMW was then.

My experience with my S4 was..."Here is the sticker, take it or leave it."

From your post, and the number of Audis I see on the road these days, I would guess things have changed. When I drove an S4 I would occasionally see another S4 on the road, but now I see at least one S car per day and I can see several on some days.

Next time around I may run the Audi numbers. What was the sticker on your car?
My sticker was 58.3k, sale price 55.7k and I got it out the door for 59.4k with 6% MI tax. The 335ix I was planning on getting was around 55k out the door, so slightly cheaper. But I'm financing over 6 years, so the higher interest rate for BMW made them pretty close.
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      03-07-2013, 11:48 AM   #269
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As a side note, if anyone is interested in driving some Audi's fast they have the audi driving experience, which is a free 4 hour trip to the track. I didn't have an invite, but requested one from the website - said I owned an Audi - and they signed me up. I bet if you pretend to be interested in a new Audi they might also see it as a good opportunity to sway you.

Apologies for coming off like an audi fanboy, but figured some people here might like to open it up on some S/RS cars on someone else's dime (tires/brakes)!
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      03-07-2013, 11:54 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by ckimmel View Post
Back in my Audi days, I test drove an M sports coupe or whatever it was..? Been too long to remember, but i didn't end up in it. Anyhow, the BMW sales guy and I were conversing about how few Audis were on the road around Indy at that time. He was saying that Audis were such great cars that they should be selling better in our market given the AWD, reputation, styling, but they weren't. He had previously been an Audi salesperson and said that Audi just wasn't taking the steps to move cars the way BMW was then.

My experience with my S4 was..."Here is the sticker, take it or leave it."

From your post, and the number of Audis I see on the road these days, I would guess things have changed. When I drove an S4 I would occasionally see another S4 on the road, but now I see at least one S car per day and I can see several on some days.

Next time around I may run the Audi numbers. What was the sticker on your car?
Also, you need to factor in things like time of the year and economic climate. I think right now is a really consumer favorable time to be buying a car, interest rates are rock bottom and sales volume appears to be the new goal with emerging markets in Asia pushing for increased manufacturing throughput.

My understanding is they were aggressively trying to up sales in NA during troubled economic times in Europe (don't think this has changed). But I don't think Audi views NA as a critical market and definitely doesn't price as well as BMW.
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      03-07-2013, 12:37 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
My sticker was 58.3k, sale price 55.7k and I got it out the door for 59.4k with 6% MI tax. The 335ix I was planning on getting was around 55k out the door, so slightly cheaper. But I'm financing over 6 years, so the higher interest rate for BMW made them pretty close.
4.5k isn't slightly

And if you're leasing, S4 is way more expensive.
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      03-07-2013, 12:57 PM   #272
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4.5k isn't slightly

And if you're leasing, S4 is way more expensive.
I should admit that the 3er had leatherette, no backup cam, no premium pkg. I just priced out a 335ix m sport with the same options as my S4 and it's $59,120 including destination (see attachment). Options the 3er has that S4 doesn't are HUD and apps. The S4 has other not really necessary options like upgraded trim, badges and some lame first aid kit - probably about 1k total.

So really only pricing advantage here is BMW has more incentives (college grad/holiday cash) and the dealer more likely to bargain I suppose (not in my case). Yes, residuals from BMWFS are high, so if leasing the BMW is the sensible choice.

Edit: Included pricing on each.
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      03-07-2013, 02:22 PM   #273
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Mine was 59900, OTD after incentives and discounts it was 54,000. It has the driver assist package and the HUD and apps that the S4 does not offer. The S4 I was looking at was going to run about 57k MSRP, that's the one with the Estoril Blue option. All prices are before taxes
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      03-07-2013, 02:36 PM   #274
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Mine was 59900, OTD after incentives and discounts it was 54,000. It has the driver assist package and the HUD and apps that the S4 does not offer. The S4 I was looking at was going to run about 57k MSRP, that's the one with the Estoril Blue option. All prices are before taxes
Holy crap!!! That's including tax I assume since you said ATD? I think the HUD is by far the biggest advantage of the 3er over S4 assuming xdrive.
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      03-07-2013, 02:38 PM   #275
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I should admit that the 3er had leatherette, no backup cam, no premium pkg. I just priced out a 335ix m sport with the same options as my S4 and it's $59,120 including destination (see attachment). Options the 3er has that S4 doesn't are HUD and apps. The S4 has other not really necessary options like upgraded trim, badges and some lame first aid kit - probably about 1k total.

So really only pricing advantage here is BMW has more incentives (college grad/holiday cash) and the dealer more likely to bargain I suppose (not in my case). Yes, residuals from BMWFS are high, so if leasing the BMW is the sensible choice.

Edit: Included pricing on each.
Right, equally equipped cars cost about the same. +1 on the incentives and bargain room, but also BMW comes with free maintenance.

Can you post a few pictures of your S4 (both exterior and interior)?
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      03-07-2013, 03:24 PM   #276
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I should admit that the 3er had leatherette, no backup cam, no premium pkg. I just priced out a 335ix m sport with the same options as my S4 and it's $59,120 including destination (see attachment). Options the 3er has that S4 doesn't are HUD and apps. The S4 has other not really necessary options like upgraded trim, badges and some lame first aid kit - probably about 1k total.

So really only pricing advantage here is BMW has more incentives (college grad/holiday cash) and the dealer more likely to bargain I suppose (not in my case). Yes, residuals from BMWFS are high, so if leasing the BMW is the sensible choice.

Edit: Included pricing on each.
Dont forget 4 years of paid service. I did the S4 vs 3 Series. The S4 has Nappa Leather, and an Amazing Steering Wheel. BMW has a better car culture, and out the door pricing. I thought both cars are great but RWD is just more fun. AWD is a safer option.

To be honest I wish I could have both cars. I really believe you should be able to live with a car before you buy, like a wife. lol
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      03-07-2013, 04:31 PM   #277
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5 years ago a BMW owner would never consider an Audi S4. The e9x series with N54 engine was faster and more entertaining then the B7 S4, and that S4 was nearly as expensive as the M3. The game changed with the B8 S4. Audi introduced the sports diff vastly improving driving dynamics and then grossly underated the engine power as BMW routinely did in the past (Common knowledge that the B8 S4 puts out 360-380 at the crank). The result is now a 4 year old car that is out performing its closest competitor, a new model by the way, for the same price (People keep on mentioning the lease prices of these cars being vastly different but when a similarly optioned 335 Xdrive is actually more expensive to purchase. Furthermore the relsale value on th S4 is fantastic. A well kept 2010 will fetch you 40K. Pretty amazing on a car that was just north of 50 thousand dollars three years ago). Just the fact that everyone is having this debate is a evidence that either Audi is making much better cars or that BMW has lost its way.
This guy nailed it.

+1 When compared closely with xdrive. BMW cost more. Audi doesn't give lease deals, but more of your money goes towards principal. Resale value has to be a huuuuuge factor when financing these. With so many "great" bmw lease deals. You'll have to compete with so many when you want a new car. All the S4/S5 and even A5 hold their value pretty strong.
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      03-07-2013, 04:48 PM   #278
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I've seen figures that around 60% of all new BMW's in NA are leases. BMW has become even more dependent on the US with EU economic downturn, while Audi has aggressively been going after eastern markets. Worldwide sales are more or less the same (maybe 1.5 to 1.4 million). The S4 is a much more niche product. You have to option the 3 series pretty specifically to compete, and based on what you see on dealer lots, very few 335's are m-sport. Don't get me wrong, a 335 modern line is a great car, but it won't be in the same performance class as an S4. Not everyone wants a harsh sports car, but rather a refined 335 with power to spare. I'd venture 328 vs 335 is probably 10 - 1, and things will get even more skewed with the 320.
60% is pretty close. I've talked to dealers and its closer to 70%. A lot of people write off cars. So leasing is ideal. When leasing becomes ideal for those who can afford it, they go for the lower "Lease Payments.". The thing that's also funny, although BMW sells more cars than Audi, the net income is nearly identical. Why would Audi give a deal on an S5 in the US for $55k when they can sell it in China for $105k. They want U.S presence, but they also don't have the allocation to send cars here like BMW. However, by lacking in sales volume in the US. They make it back in higher margins else where. In the U.S, it feels like BMW is Microsoft/Windows and Audi is more like a Mac/Apple software.
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      03-07-2013, 04:49 PM   #279
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for some reason, i think the B8's headlights look better than the B8.5
You're not the only one. A lot of guys on the Audi forums prefer the B8 headlights. Especially on the A5/S5 lineup.
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      03-07-2013, 05:29 PM   #280
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You're not the only one. A lot of guys on the Audi forums prefer the B8 headlights. Especially on the A5/S5 lineup.
Although, i prefer the 2013 steering wheel better due to the flat bottom
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      03-07-2013, 06:58 PM   #281
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Although, i prefer the 2013 steering wheel better due to the flat bottom
Yes! Steering Wheel Mods are $1200+labor. I wish BMW had a flat bottom steering wheel : /
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      03-07-2013, 07:18 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by BMWFanatic2008 View Post
Right, equally equipped cars cost about the same. +1 on the incentives and bargain room, but also BMW comes with free maintenance.

Can you post a few pictures of your S4 (both exterior and interior)?
Here are a couple shots, please don't kill me for the rims - got snow tires as a Christmas gift and didn't wanna spend too much considering the frequent salt baths they get and probably the WORST roads in the USA.
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      03-07-2013, 07:48 PM   #283
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Mine was 59900, OTD after incentives and discounts it was 54,000. It has the driver assist package and the HUD and apps that the S4 does not offer. The S4 I was looking at was going to run about 57k MSRP, that's the one with the Estoril Blue option. All prices are before taxes
Holy crap!!! That's including tax I assume since you said ATD? I think the HUD is by far the biggest advantage of the 3er over S4 assuming xdrive.
You have to add 7% taxes to all those numbers. One look of the EBII m sport 3er was all she wrote. I could have saved a little by getting the S4 but for the life of me that car was just not doing it for me. Different strokes for different folks I guess
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      03-07-2013, 07:53 PM   #284
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I've seen figures that around 60% of all new BMW's in NA are leases. BMW has become even more dependent on the US with EU economic downturn, while Audi has aggressively been going after eastern markets. Worldwide sales are more or less the same (maybe 1.5 to 1.4 million). The S4 is a much more niche product. You have to option the 3 series pretty specifically to compete, and based on what you see on dealer lots, very few 335's are m-sport. Don't get me wrong, a 335 modern line is a great car, but it won't be in the same performance class as an S4. Not everyone wants a harsh sports car, but rather a refined 335 with power to spare. I'd venture 328 vs 335 is probably 10 - 1, and things will get even more skewed with the 320.
60% is pretty close. I've talked to dealers and its closer to 70%. A lot of people write off cars. So leasing is ideal. When leasing becomes ideal for those who can afford it, they go for the lower "Lease Payments.". The thing that's also funny, although BMW sells more cars than Audi, the net income is nearly identical. Why would Audi give a deal on an S5 in the US for $55k when they can sell it in China for $105k. They want U.S presence, but they also don't have the allocation to send cars here like BMW. However, by lacking in sales volume in the US. They make it back in higher margins else where. In the U.S, it feels like BMW is Microsoft/Windows and Audi is more like a Mac/Apple software.
the A4 is like apple and the 328 is like Microsoft?

FYI BMW outsells Audi worldwide and Audi is on record for wanting the BmW place, you cannot win this race without the US.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-09/bmw-keeps-sales-lead-as-top-three-luxury-car-makers-post-record-deliveries.html
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      03-07-2013, 08:28 PM   #285
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the A4 is like apple and the 328 is like Microsoft?

FYI BMW outsells Audi worldwide and Audi is on record for wanting the BmW place, you cannot win this race without the US.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...eliveries.html
That's a pretty old article...Audi appears to be targeting China - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...110-autos.html

According to this BMW sold .28 million in US (compared to 1.5 million world wide)
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...-sales-in-2012
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      03-07-2013, 08:56 PM   #286
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the A4 is like apple and the 328 is like Microsoft?

FYI BMW outsells Audi worldwide and Audi is on record for wanting the BmW place, you cannot win this race without the US.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...eliveries.html
That's a pretty old article...Audi appears to be targeting China - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...110-autos.html

According to this BMW sold .28 million in US (compared to 1.5 million world wide)
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...-sales-in-2012
I think both articles conclude BMW is still on top right. I am just trying to diffuse the theory that Audi is somehow not trying to outsell BMW even here in the US.

If they continue to be outsold by Cadillac and possibly Infiniti then this may prove difficult
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