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      01-26-2013, 06:53 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by mryakanisachoad View Post
All of them
Indeed. Everyone here looked at the equivalents and ended up with a bimmer obviously. A major reason I chose BMW was for the 4 year included free maintenance.
+1

The tech is also superior and after having owned a G37 I wanted something with better fuel efficiency. If I had really been in love with Audi I would have bought it but I was more passionate about the m sport than the S4. I parked next to one today, no regrets whatsoever. It's still a nice car though
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      01-26-2013, 08:19 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
I have an S4 and I have test driven the A4 and the 335i and 328i extensively both the e92 and F30 and IMO the A4 is behind the 335i and 328i in performance but the S4 was to my liking. This is not saying the 335i wasn't as the e90 steering was the best.



That is definitely a key difference but really both engines aren't the same as no components are shared. That is how different it is. Just like the BMW 2.0T doesn't share anything with the Audi the VW doesn't share anything with Audi either.



Incorrect, the A4 isn't even on the same platform as the Passat or similiar. That said the new MQB platform will be shared with Porsche, Audi, and VW and the platform will be modified to each companies specs. This doesn't bother me one bit as the 3 companies can build a better platform at the same time saving money for other areas.
What bothers me is the incorrect information that people state as facts without doing the research.

CVT A4 are almost non existent in North America.



Each manufacturer has it's own problems just like BMW had it with the hpfp.
The key is how timely they fix the problems. Both Audi and BMW had taken way too long in fixing the hpfp and the coil problems IMO.
My cc needed a waterpump and intake manifold before 40k. Those are biggies. I was not unique, both common on the TSI.
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      01-26-2013, 09:45 PM   #91
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I looked at 2013 S4 and got it.

I was comparing 13 M-Sport F30 335i xDrive and 13 S4. The price difference in US was small, BMW was like $600 more equally equipped.
Just plain and simple, if you considering AWD - get S4, otherwise get BMW.
BMW F30 has maybe just a bit more space on the back seat, but mainly because Audi's sports seats take more room. Interior quality of S4 is still better than updated F30 interior.
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      01-27-2013, 01:08 AM   #92
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I have an S4 and I have test driven the A4 and the 335i and 328i extensively both the e92 and F30 and IMO the A4 is behind the 335i and 328i in performance but the S4 was to my liking. This is not saying the 335i wasn't as the e90 steering was the best.



That is definitely a key difference but really both engines aren't the same as no components are shared. That is how different it is. Just like the BMW 2.0T doesn't share anything with the Audi the VW doesn't share anything with Audi either.



Incorrect, the A4 isn't even on the same platform as the Passat or similiar. That said the new MQB platform will be shared with Porsche, Audi, and VW and the platform will be modified to each companies specs. This doesn't bother me one bit as the 3 companies can build a better platform at the same time saving money for other areas.
What bothers me is the incorrect information that people state as facts without doing the research.

CVT A4 are almost non existent in North America.
Sorry I meant to say shared the same platform like the B5's. Burundi shares a lot of parts like turbos, driveline components, and electronics.

I see CVT's at my Audi dealership and last time I talked to the dealer they told about 30 to 20 percent are FWD.

So where do your numbers come from?
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      01-27-2013, 02:11 AM   #93
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I have a 335 msport and disagree with almost every single thing said here as ive tracked both cars hard and have used them both for basic daily driving. Outside of audi generally having horrible lease deals and looking a little boring the S4 is much more of a drivers car imho.
+1. I consider E90 335i on par with B8 S4 in terms of being a driver's car. The F30 is not in the same league though. Compared with Audi, it feels like a bigger, softer, more luxurious automobile. Not necessarily a bad thing, as BMW is repositioning the 3-series as a Mercedes/Lexus fighter, but it's definitely not the same car dynamically as the previous generations.
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      01-27-2013, 02:45 AM   #94
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The 2.0T is one of the most ubiquitous engine in the VW group galaxy. It's in the the GTI, the Jetta, the Passat I think, the CC, a few Skodas and some Seats, not to mention the A3, A4, A5, A6 and perhaps even A7.-
The 2.0T (EA888) engine may be ubiquitous but it's not a VW engine. Audi and VW have separate engineering departments and the EA888 engine was developed 100% by Audi. Just because a detuned version goes into some higher-end VW's doesn't make it a bad engine. In fact, its an excellent engine that has won Ward's engine of the year award.
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      01-27-2013, 11:44 AM   #95
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All I was saying was that poster ToyotaBMW seemed wrong on three of his claims:
1. Audis have more parts in common with BMW than VW.
2. You can't mount the same engine on an AWD and FWD car.
3. The 2.0t audi engine shares no component with VW's 2.0t

Those seem to be overly strong statements to me.
Audis and BMWs and Mercedes and VWs share suppliers, of course, but for different parts. they also design a lot of their products in-house. On the other hand you get a lot of commonality between Audi and VW products. Yes they do have separate engineering depts, but parts developed by one company end up in the product of the other company, exactly the the same or some variation of it. VW group makes large economies of scale that way, and I believe this is the reason why they can be so competitive and profitable.
The "parts bank" idea is not a critique; all carmakers do it to some extent. BMW wants minis and the 1series to share the same Modular FWD platform. BMW already has the same platform for the 5 series, 7 series and Rolls Royce Ghost. I understand the economic reasons. But to me the Ghost is just a super-pimped up 5 series. It is not entirely unique. The Ghost was not started from scratch, it was an extension of a less-pedigreed car (not that I dislike or would return a Ghost if it was given to me for free). A lot of BMW enthusiasts likewise criticize The brand for moving the 1er to FWD architecture because it erases or dilutes what a "real" BMW is like.
To me the same applies to A4s. Yes, they are specially engineered but to me they are just pimped-up Volkswagens. They haven't been designed from scratch to fit a specific need / place in the market. They haven't been designed to be sporty (CVT anyone? FWD?). They have just been made sporty by the addition of bigger engines requiring a sport package or an AWD addition or else it would be a nightmare for the front wheels.
Not that the result is bad or that I hate Audi. I praise their style, their interior build quality, their work on lightweight materials, on the 2.0tfsi (if they did it as opposed to VW) and on Quattro. I'm just saying that the base US model, the 2.0t, is less of an enthusiast, less of a pure breed than the 328i for instance. The S4 ranks higher in my mind, because it was created and designed to be a great AWD sport car.
(And we could talk about A1's being Polos and A3s being Golfs)
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      01-27-2013, 03:50 PM   #96
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I think it really depends on where you live. Here in SoCal, there are hardly any a4 Quattro's yet alone many S4's. The 3 series are readily available.

AWD is really pointless in here unless you go skiing all the time. Therefore, most Audi's here are FWD. I don't really consider it an Audi unless it's a Quattro.

Also, isn't he S4 supercharged vs the 335i's turbocharged?
Ya last week it was -15 degrees Celsius here so stop rubbing it in with the SoCal weather.
Will be visiting Sunnyvale for wedding in June and that can't come fast enough.
FWD Audi is a waste of money. Totally agree that Audi must be Quattro. Just like BMW should be RWD.
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      01-27-2013, 03:53 PM   #97
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+1. I consider E90 335i on par with B8 S4 in terms of being a driver's car. The F30 is not in the same league though. Compared with Audi, it feels like a bigger, softer, more luxurious automobile. Not necessarily a bad thing, as BMW is repositioning the 3-series as a Mercedes/Lexus fighter, but it's definitely not the same car dynamically as the previous generations.
Ugh, I hate it when people with e90's come onto the f30 forums to post how much better their car is than the new f30. In all reality the f30 posts lap times almost on par with the 335is. So to say it's no longer a drivers car doesn't make any sense. The thing that BMW did was make a bigger, more comfortable, luxurious 3-series while keeping the driving dynamics mostly the same. I really don't know why people still like their e90 335i's, imo, it does nothing better than the new f30 335i.

I think the S4 is a better car but it's also more expensive comparably equipped (just doing builds on the two websites $6k more) with poor leases, no free maint. plan, and dealers much less willing to negotiate.

C&D Lightning lap
3:13.8 BMW 335is
3:13.2 BMW 335i (f30)
3:10.8 AUDI S4
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...o-2013-page-10
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      01-27-2013, 04:40 PM   #98
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I owned audis for a decade, everyone in my family drives them and I used to work for them... I have a F30 335i instead of the S4, and I compared the two extensively.

'nuff said... The s4 is a good car, I just think the 335 is a great one.
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      01-27-2013, 08:06 PM   #99
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I looked at 2013 S4 and got it.

I was comparing 13 M-Sport F30 335i xDrive and 13 S4. The price difference in US was small, BMW was like $600 more equally equipped.
Just plain and simple, if you considering AWD - get S4, otherwise get BMW.
BMW F30 has maybe just a bit more space on the back seat, but mainly because Audi's sports seats take more room. Interior quality of S4 is still better than updated F30 interior.
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+1. I consider E90 335i on par with B8 S4 in terms of being a driver's car. The F30 is not in the same league though. Compared with Audi, it feels like a bigger, softer, more luxurious automobile. Not necessarily a bad thing, as BMW is repositioning the 3-series as a Mercedes/Lexus fighter, but it's definitely not the same car dynamically as the previous generations.
Great posts. I agree 100%.
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      01-27-2013, 09:22 PM   #100
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+1. I consider E90 335i on par with B8 S4 in terms of being a driver's car. The F30 is not in the same league though. Compared with Audi, it feels like a bigger, softer, more luxurious automobile. Not necessarily a bad thing, as BMW is repositioning the 3-series as a Mercedes/Lexus fighter, but it's definitely not the same car dynamically as the previous generations.
Have you driven a F30-335i M Sport with Adaptive M suspension and Variable Sport steering in Sport Mode ? If you had, I doubt you would have made the foregoing statements.

Having owned 4 different versions of E9X, I can offer some semi-objective comparison between E90-335i and F30-335i.

1. comparing steering, the E90 offers more feedback, in terms of transmitting a wider range of road imperfections to the steering wheel than the F30-335i. For long distance driving, I would consider this a benefit for the F30. The VSS in my F30-335i is more direct and faster than the E90 steering; this is especially apparent in tight turning situations.

For low speed manoeuvres, the F30 VSS is much better than the E90 steering. When I drive my wife's E93 at low speeds, it feels like both front tires are flat.

2. comparing handling, there is no significant difference between the two generations of 335i M Sport (providing the cars being compared are both equipped with staggered summer performance tires) except that the F30-335i feels more rigid, which in fact it is by about 30%. This fact has been attested to by various professional road tests of the F30-335i (see note below).

Note: the standard F30 Sportline available in Canada is being fitted with square all season tires; this is a definite downgrade that does negatively impact handling compared to the previous E90-335i with Sport package that was equipped with staggered summer performance tires.

3. comparing ride and steering response, the introduction of the Driving Experience switch gives the driver of the F30 the choice of modes. I find Comfort too soft, so I choose Sport for most of my driving, except longer highway drives, when I switch to Comfort or EcoPro to decrease fuel consumption. The F30 gives a more compliant ride, no matter what mode is chosen compared to the E90. This is partly due to the newer generation RFTs on the F30 and the new chassis.

4. comparing styling is highly subjective. But, IMO, the F30-335i M Sport is the best looking 3 Series yet. I would not say the same thing about the non-M Sport versions of the F30. The front ends of the these versions do not look quite right to me; the central bumper area under the grills appears slightly concave and the "whiskers" add a fussy element to the overall appearance. I still prefer the front end of the E90 LCI to the non-M Sport F30.

5. comparing the F30 to the A4, I won't bother as I am a fan of RWD.
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      01-27-2013, 09:38 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Ti335 View Post
+1. I consider E90 335i on par with B8 S4 in terms of being a driver's car. The F30 is not in the same league though. Compared with Audi, it feels like a bigger, softer, more luxurious automobile. Not necessarily a bad thing, as BMW is repositioning the 3-series as a Mercedes/Lexus fighter, but it's definitely not the same car dynamically as the previous generations.
Ugh, I hate it when people with e90's come onto the f30 forums to post how much better their car is than the new f30. In all reality the f30 posts lap times almost on par with the 335is. So to say it's no longer a drivers car doesn't make any sense. The thing that BMW did was make a bigger, more comfortable, luxurious 3-series while keeping the driving dynamics mostly the same. I really don't know why people still like their e90 335i's, imo, it does nothing better than the new f30 335i.

I think the S4 is a better car but it's also more expensive comparably equipped (just doing builds on the two websites $6k more) with poor leases, no free maint. plan, and dealers much less willing to negotiate.

C&D Lightning lap
3:13.8 BMW 335is
3:13.2 BMW 335i (f30)
3:10.8 AUDI S4
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...o-2013-page-10

Don't worry about that man, people are generally resistant to change. Even E90 328i's are better than F30 335i's. Just lol at it and move on
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      01-27-2013, 10:02 PM   #102
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Even E90 328i's are better than F30 335i's
...sigh
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      01-28-2013, 01:08 AM   #103
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+1. I consider E90 335i on par with B8 S4 in terms of being a driver's car. The F30 is not in the same league though. Compared with Audi, it feels like a bigger, softer, more luxurious automobile. Not necessarily a bad thing, as BMW is repositioning the 3-series as a Mercedes/Lexus fighter, but it's definitely not the same car dynamically as the previous generations.

This is why I am looking at the s4, until the M2 comes out. I will always love BMW, but every time I test drive an f30 I am disappointed. I am looking at XDrive for winter skiing with kids. It just feels soft compared to past 3 series, I will say the Msport is absolutely great looking. I saw a lady the other day that had all the Mperfomance parts sans the stripes. Amazing looking.

I need AWD and I just want to try something else.
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      01-28-2013, 01:15 AM   #104
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I am looking at XDrive for winter skiing with kids. It just feels soft compared to past 3 series, I will say the Msport is absolutely great looking.
When you opt for Xdrive, you don't get a Sport suspension, hence softer ride along with all of the other AWD negatives. The S4 is even heavier on the front end than the 335i Xdrive.
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      01-28-2013, 02:30 AM   #105
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What I don’t get are all the people that complain about one car or another being less sporty than their F30 automatic????

I test drove a F30 335i sports package with auto and a 2012 S4 with automatic and the S4 was a more fun, better cornering, better handling, sports car to drive. The major reason I did not buy the S4 was because there was 2” or 3” less legroom in the backseats and I need to occasionally have the extra legroom in the back. To me, my 2008 335xi in 6 speed manual was a much more fun, involving, visceral car to drive than either the F30 or S4 in automatic... the key difference is the 6 speed manual versus the automatic....We are talking about 3 series BMW’s not Porsche Cayman’s so right off the bat we are talking about a major compromise for a “sports” car, add in an automatic and we are talking even more of a family hauler that is not a serious sports car.

How many of the F30 drivers complaing about the S4 have actually driven the S4 around a corner and floored it with the quattro and the torque vectoring sport differential???

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      01-28-2013, 04:29 AM   #106
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti335 View Post
+1. I consider E90 335i on par with B8 S4 in terms of being a driver's car. The F30 is not in the same league though. Compared with Audi, it feels like a bigger, softer, more luxurious automobile. Not necessarily a bad thing, as BMW is repositioning the 3-series as a Mercedes/Lexus fighter, but it's definitely not the same car dynamically as the previous generations.

This is why I am looking at the s4, until the M2 comes out. I will always love BMW, but every time I test drive an f30 I am disappointed. I am looking at XDrive for winter skiing with kids. It just feels soft compared to past 3 series, I will say the Msport is absolutely great looking. I saw a lady the other day that had all the Mperfomance parts sans the stripes. Amazing looking.

I need AWD and I just want to try something else.

Get the Dynamic Handling Package with the xdrive
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      01-28-2013, 08:24 AM   #107
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5 years ago a BMW owner would never consider an Audi S4. The e9x series with N54 engine was faster and more entertaining then the B7 S4, and that S4 was nearly as expensive as the M3. The game changed with the B8 S4. Audi introduced the sports diff vastly improving driving dynamics and then grossly underated the engine power as BMW routinely did in the past (Common knowledge that the B8 S4 puts out 360-380 at the crank). The result is now a 4 year old car that is out performing its closest competitor, a new model by the way, for the same price (People keep on mentioning the lease prices of these cars being vastly different but when a similarly optioned 335 Xdrive is actually more expensive to purchase. Furthermore the relsale value on th S4 is fantastic. A well kept 2010 will fetch you 40K. Pretty amazing on a car that was just north of 50 thousand dollars three years ago). Just the fact that everyone is having this debate is a evidence that either Audi is making much better cars or that BMW has lost its way.
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      01-28-2013, 09:54 AM   #108
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When you opt for Xdrive, you don't get a Sport suspension, hence softer ride along with all of the other AWD negatives. The S4 is even heavier on the front end than the 335i Xdrive.
Does it matter if the S4 is heavier in the front than the Xdrive if it crushes it around a track and has more sportier handling?
Does it matter that a 911 is heavier in the rear, yet it is one of the best handling cars money can buy?
The point is technology can overcome many platform problems.
Saying the S4 is heavier in the front and yet it outperforms the 335i on tracks and most reviews just means that BMW has been resting on it's laurels and it is time that BMW should maybe get back to the basics of what a BMW should be.
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      01-28-2013, 10:53 AM   #109
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Have you driven a F30-335i M Sport with Adaptive M suspension and Variable Sport steering in Sport Mode ? If you had, I doubt you would have made the foregoing statements.

Having owned 4 different versions of E9X, I can offer some semi-objective comparison between E90-335i and F30-335i.

1. comparing steering, the E90 offers more feedback, in terms of transmitting a wider range of road imperfections to the steering wheel than the F30-335i. For long distance driving, I would consider this a benefit for the F30. The VSS in my F30-335i is more direct and faster than the E90 steering; this is especially apparent in tight turning situations.

For low speed manoeuvres, the F30 VSS is much better than the E90 steering. When I drive my wife's E93 at low speeds, it feels like both front tires are flat.

2. comparing handling, there is no significant difference between the two generations of 335i M Sport (providing the cars being compared are both equipped with staggered summer performance tires) except that the F30-335i feels more rigid, which in fact it is by about 30%. This fact has been attested to by various professional road tests of the F30-335i (see note below).

Note: the standard F30 Sportline available in Canada is being fitted with square all season tires; this is a definite downgrade that does negatively impact handling compared to the previous E90-335i with Sport package that was equipped with staggered summer performance tires.

3. comparing ride and steering response, the introduction of the Driving Experience switch gives the driver of the F30 the choice of modes. I find Comfort too soft, so I choose Sport for most of my driving, except longer highway drives, when I switch to Comfort or EcoPro to decrease fuel consumption. The F30 gives a more compliant ride, no matter what mode is chosen compared to the E90. This is partly due to the newer generation RFTs on the F30 and the new chassis.

4. comparing styling is highly subjective. But, IMO, the F30-335i M Sport is the best looking 3 Series yet. I would not say the same thing about the non-M Sport versions of the F30. The front ends of the these versions do not look quite right to me; the central bumper area under the grills appears slightly concave and the "whiskers" add a fussy element to the overall appearance. I still prefer the front end of the E90 LCI to the non-M Sport F30.

5. comparing the F30 to the A4, I won't bother as I am a fan of RWD.
WTF. How can they call that a sport package?
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      01-28-2013, 11:42 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
Does it matter if the S4 is heavier in the front than the Xdrive if it crushes it around a track and has more sportier handling?
Does it matter that a 911 is heavier in the rear, yet it is one of the best handling cars money can buy?
The point is technology can overcome many platform problems.
Saying the S4 is heavier in the front and yet it outperforms the 335i on tracks and most reviews just means that BMW has been resting on it's laurels and it is time that BMW should maybe get back to the basics of what a BMW should be.
Didn't you read his post, he never even drove the S4....probably because it doesn't have the fancy blue and white ornament on the front of the car.....
SPACEMANRICK is offline   Canada
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