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      03-04-2013, 12:26 PM   #23
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But the chassis is E46. Probably a copy.
A copy? They are nothing alike, not even close.
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      03-04-2013, 12:30 PM   #24
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A copy? They are nothing alike, not even close.
I never said it was a good copy.
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      03-04-2013, 12:44 PM   #25
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I will confirm that the ATS 2.0 is no where near faster then the 328. We just went through extensive test drives of the 328 and ATS 2.0 back to back with my fiance. She did not like the drivetrain of the ATS at all, neither did I. Although I think it could be the transmission that lets it down more then the engine, its awful where the 328's trans really shines.

The 3.6 was closer in performance to the 328, it was faster but barely considering how much power it has, a 335 will make it look silly though.
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      03-04-2013, 01:24 PM   #26
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I will confirm that the ATS 2.0 is no where near faster then the 328. We just went through extensive test drives of the 328 and ATS 2.0 back to back with my fiance. She did not like the drivetrain of the ATS at all, neither did I. Although I think it could be the transmission that lets it down more then the engine, its awful where the 328's trans really shines.

The 3.6 was closer in performance to the 328, it was faster but barely considering how much power it has, a 335 will make it look silly though.
+1 exactly my experience
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      03-04-2013, 02:43 PM   #27
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I still think there is missinfo in that test.

He says you have to pull 4th gear at 55 in the ATS. Doubt it, he must have meant in the 1/4 mile. No way a 6mt would need to be shifted to 4th in a car like that, this isn't an 18spd Kenworth.
I think he meant to say 3rd gear. According to R&T the 328i will do 66 MPH in second and the ATS only 58 MPH, which would require an additional shift to 60.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/cm/roada...379fc843fb.pdf
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      03-04-2013, 02:49 PM   #28
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I think he meant to say 3rd gear. According to R&T the 328i will do 66 MPH in second and the ATS only 58 MPH, which would require an additional shift to 60.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/cm/roada...379fc843fb.pdf
Yep, that makes more sense.

By the way, I bet an aftermarket tune can raise the limiter a couple hundred RPM and allow you to shift at 60.
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      03-04-2013, 03:52 PM   #29
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The ATS was my favourite car when it came to steering and suspension when cross shopping the 328 x-drive, ATS 4wd and the A4. My wife also found in terms of driving it was:
ATS > 328 >A4

The rear seat room and trunk on the ATS completely knocked it out of contention for me. It may sound silly but I play hockey as a goalie and there was zero chance of my bag fitting in the trunk unless I folded the rear seats. Considering I play at least once a week year round I needed a car that it could fit in without any need to fold the seats.

In the end the 328 was our overall favourite car because of the way it combined exterior/interior appearance, engine, transmission and driving dynamics (specially when in Sport) and that's why it's in my garage.
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      03-05-2013, 02:49 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by SPACEMANRICK
This is a pretty thorough comparison from the Canadian site autos.ca . I largely agree, for me I much prefer the look of the BMW and the ATS is too small for me. The ride on the BMW also is now less sporty than in the E90.

http://www.autos.ca/car-comparisons/...-ats-2-0t-awd/
Less sporty than an e90? Isnt the chassis much stiffer and handling quite improved?! Stiffer suspension but cant turn doesnt equal sporty. Ha.
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      03-07-2013, 12:35 AM   #31
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I grew up in a GM/UAW town. We were always told that during the cold war our factories made us #12 on the USSR's hit list. It was said that there were plans to convert to munitions in a 48 hour time frame if needed. We toured the huge GM factories in high school as part of our education - like "here is where you will end up". Most of the parents in our town worked for GM or provided services for those employees. All of the negative things that are stereotypes are based upon facts. Employees just milked the clock, worked to barely meet a quota, smoked and ate themselves sick, made good money (counting on OT) and expected a nice retirement with health care paid for. There was never any focus on product, pride, or a mission statement.

The factories are now huge lots of grass which conceals soil so polluted that it will take decades to remediate.

I believe that, for many years post WWII, our country made the best assembly line produced cars you could find. I think that would be hard to dispute. How we get back to anything close to that status is anyone's guess, but I think that it comes down to Americans getting a sense of pride in their work back and committing to taking care of themselves. Boy that is political huh?
Well stated. Part of my bias against cars made by UAW labor was the experiences my parents had with their vehicles. Every one they bought had issues and died at an early age. My parents weren't wealthy and I was sick of them continuing to get ripped off. The sour taste in my mouth from this still lingers. I've owned 8 bullet proof Japanese cars- they just don't drive as nicely as a BMW.

Please read the latest issue by the geeks from Consumer Reports. US car companies still are muddled in mediocrity.
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      03-07-2013, 09:51 AM   #32
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Yeah, but one's made in Detroit by union labor and the other's made in Germany by non-union labor! Hhhhmmmm, I wonder which one's a better car in every way? Good, I see at the end he "gives the crown" to the 3 Series.
If you don't want your american car to be made by unionized workers, then are you OK paying them twice as much as they currently make? German auto industry manufacturing workers make almost $70 per hour in total comp. Here, they make less than $35. I'm sure every single one of those guys in Detroit would leave the UAW to make double the money. So if they did that, then you'd think the car they prodiced was good?

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No matter how good the ATS is, it will not sell here in the UK. We do not like American cars, we do not like Cadillac's and we do not like their consumer demographics.

I can't recall if they do plan to sell it in the UK or not, but if they do I doubt highly they will get the sales they want. Maybe some clever marketing could push things in their favour, but BMW, Audi, Mercedes will just push right back and assert badge dominance.

Thing is, many qualitative views are not/cannot be taken into account by reviewers. Something simple like the quality of the maps on the Navigation. I don't mean how up to date they are, but how they look, how they take landscape into account, thickness of roads, RTTI, pleasant woman and the colours used. Mercedes' is fecking horrible! Audi's is pretty good. BMW's is best. Does the ATS used GM's system?

My opinion, but if you simply take a look at each system, I'd be surprised if you said the others were easier on the eye. The BMW is a well rounded car, as are Audi's. Merc's to some extent...

My point being, the Cadillac may be a dynamically better car in terms of performance on the track, but I want a BMW or an Audi over it, and that can't be explained so easily.

One could argue a biased view, what with being a Bimmerpost member approaching 2000 posts and a BMW owner for 7 years so far (9 by the time it's bye bye 328i), and I highly doubt I'll be in another marque, unless the Fisker Atlantic is as amazing as it could be. Or the Tesla Model S actually... Mmm...
But, like every time, I will look at all rivals to be sure!
The other thing the guy doesn't mention is that the ATS backseats do not fold down at all. Couple that with a tiny trunk and you're really in for a pain in the ass anytime you need to take 2 suitcases to the airport. And in the ATS you're definitely taking your driver out of your golf bag to get it in the trunk.

I personally found the ATS seats really hard and not too comfortable. Also, the engine noise in the ATS may be nicer than the engine noise int he 328i which is terrible, but it ATS' noise is so intrusive that it would be hard to live with. It's like someone at GM said "driving enthusiasts like to hear the engine, so let's not put any sound insulation at all between the engine and the dabin, they'll love it!" I only drove the ATS 3.6 but I admit I was actually started by the noise when I gave the engine just a bit of throttle.

There is no doubt that the ATS suspension and steering are magnificent, and it is a good car, and I think a reasonable, unpretentious person should buy the best car regardless of logo. However, as the reviewer said, at this point in time, the BMW is still the better all-rounf car. But it's really close.

Last edited by jtuds; 03-07-2013 at 09:59 AM.
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      03-07-2013, 10:05 AM   #33
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Uh wrong. BMW is heavily unionized. The Spartanburg plant (maybe Pretoria aswell) are the only plants that are not unionized. The problem isn't necessarily with unions themselves as much as it is the UAW.
It's not UNIONS that are the problem, it's WHICH union. In Germany unions aren't the destructive entity that they are in France and to a lesser extent in the US. If you think UAW is bad come check out the CGT in France Bring a gun with you.
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      03-07-2013, 10:20 AM   #34
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German auto industry manufacturing workers make almost $70 per hour in total comp.
Source please? Hopefully not that Forbes article where no sources are given. That's like $150k a year for an assembly-line worker, not even in FANTASY LAND man. Heck I should quit my software engineering job and move back to Europe so I can be a factory worker for 150k lol. Why did nobody tell me about this when I left!

Regular assembly-line workers make around 18 Euros/hour before tax at BMW, VW, Audi, etc...

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      03-07-2013, 10:33 AM   #35
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I would gladly drive a 6mt CTSV wagon tuned to 700hp and do a nice smoky burnout in the face of people with such a mentality.
CTSV is in a world of it's own, I concur.
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      03-07-2013, 10:37 AM   #36
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Source please? Hopefully not that Forbes article where no sources are given.

That's like $150k a year for an assembly-line worker, not even in FANTASY LAND man.

Regular assembly-line workers make around 18 Euros/Hour at BMW, VW, Audi, etc...
He said total comp, which would include all benefits which includes a big one, health insurance. I think a similar study was done here between workers at different auto plants and the number was pretty high when they did the total comp. I think it was around $60ish if my foggy memory serves.

Ahh here is a nice chart, pre bankruptcy

http://www.heritage.org/~/media/Imag...500&h=489&as=1
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      03-07-2013, 11:37 AM   #37
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Well stated. Part of my bias against cars made by UAW labor was the experiences my parents had with their vehicles. Every one they bought had issues and died at an early age. My parents weren't wealthy and I was sick of them continuing to get ripped off. The sour taste in my mouth from this still lingers. I've owned 8 bullet proof Japanese cars- they just don't drive as nicely as a BMW.

Please read the latest issue by the geeks from Consumer Reports. US car companies still are muddled in mediocrity.
My Toyota 4Runner is great, but it is not a BMW X5 by a long shot.

A new a lot of factory workers and they made over 100k per year with OT. They counted on it. Most of them lived in nice houses, had 40g bass boats, and lots had Corvettes in the garage too. They were definitely overpaid and when you account for the healthcare that they used after retirement, given poor health, I am sure they were very expensive.

Back to the ATS... What percentage is made by UAW workers? Assembled is one thing, but what % of the parts? My dad, a GM designer, always blamed part outsourcing to Mexico in the late 80s early 90s for the decline in quality of GM products. Later it was outsourcing to Canada and now I am sure India/Asia. In either case, non union employees I would believe. My point is, sure the UAW has a fair portion of the blame, but they can only assemble the parts they are given too. Right?
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      03-07-2013, 02:54 PM   #38
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He said total comp, which would include all benefits which includes a big one, health insurance. I think a similar study was done here between workers at different auto plants and the number was pretty high when they did the total comp. I think it was around $60ish if my foggy memory serves.

Ahh here is a nice chart, pre bankruptcy

http://www.heritage.org/~/media/Imag...500&h=489&as=1
In Western Europe, a worker costs his employer roughly 2x his gross salary. This includes all kinds of taxes which are used to pay for universal unemployment, universal health care, the list goes on.

So with the crazy figure of $150k a year total comp:

Total comp: $150k
- employer taxes of $75k
= Gross salary: $75k

Or in EUR: 57,648

This would be a high income by European standards. The truth is that, the actual income of a factory worker in Germany is around 25k gross or 18 EUR/hour, and yes they still have to pay income tax.

To me the poster above and the Forbes article have an agenda of legitimization of the UAW actions and trying to pass them off as merely keeping up with their European counterparts, when in fact they are the most well paid factory workers in the WORLD and that's not stopping them from whining any occasion they got.

But like I said the UAW is actually a fair, gentle and caring organization when compared to the evil CGT in France. These guys will actually sabotage and burn their factories and kidnap the plant manager with no action whatsoever from law enforcement, justice or politicians. Actually this is encouraged.
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      03-07-2013, 02:55 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by ckimmel View Post
Back to the ATS... What percentage is made by UAW workers? Assembled is one thing, but what % of the parts? My dad, a GM designer, always blamed part outsourcing to Mexico in the late 80s early 90s for the decline in quality of GM products. Later it was outsourcing to Canada and now I am sure India/Asia. In either case, non union employees I would believe. My point is, sure the UAW has a fair portion of the blame, but they can only assemble the parts they are given too. Right?
And why do you think these parts are outsourced to non union factories abroad lol.
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      03-07-2013, 03:08 PM   #40
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Not an another ATS vs 3 Series Thread.
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      03-07-2013, 03:30 PM   #41
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It's not UNIONS that are the problem, it's WHICH union. In Germany unions aren't the destructive entity that they are in France and to a lesser extent in the US. If you think UAW is bad come check out the CGT in France Bring a gun with you.
Your right that France's unions are worse than the US's, however we were talking about Germany vs. USA. BMW has a very innovative deal with its unions that essentially has their workers "on call' 24/7. They are called in when cars need to be built, and sent home when they don't. Another interesting thing about BMW's assembly lines are that they can handle multiple models. You can have a 1er the next car could be a 3er and the next could be a Z4. Its a beautifully complex system.


Don't ya'll basically have 3 hour work days over there?

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      03-07-2013, 03:44 PM   #42
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In Western Europe, a worker costs his employer roughly 2x his gross salary. This includes all kinds of taxes which are used to pay for universal unemployment, universal health care, the list goes on.

So with the crazy figure of $150k a year total comp:

Total comp: $150k
- employer taxes of $75k
= Gross salary: $75k

Or in EUR: 57,648

This would be a high income by European standards. The truth is that, the actual income of a factory worker in Germany is around 25k gross or 18 EUR/hour, and yes they still have to pay income tax.

To me the poster above and the Forbes article have an agenda of legitimization of the UAW actions and trying to pass them off as merely keeping up with their European counterparts, when in fact they are the most well paid factory workers in the WORLD and that's not stopping them from whining any occasion they got.

But like I said the UAW is actually a fair, gentle and caring organization when compared to the evil CGT in France. These guys will actually sabotage and burn their factories and kidnap the plant manager with no action whatsoever from law enforcement, justice or politicians. Actually this is encouraged.
I was actually pointing out that the UAW workers are probably overpaid, and the article was too. The union always tries to say they need more money, etc and the article was comparing them to other workers in similar industries and showing how much they make, especially considering all the benefits. Not bad considering many of those jobs don't require a college degree.

Also, just some quick math, you mentioned 18/hour being 25k. It's actually over 36k, assuming they work 40 hours a week. Maybe you meant part time workers?

Regardless, it's neither here nor there, just trying to point out facts. Not a fan of unions in general because many have turned too greedy and willing to strike/protest when they are better paid by a large margin when compared to their non union counterparts. But let's not get on that discussion...
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      03-07-2013, 04:13 PM   #43
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Don't ya'll basically have 3 hour work days over there?
Haha, yeah, lots of clowning around this topic these days, but I would say that in some union trades this is the case more or less.

Thankfully unions represent a minority in France but a very vocal, visible and politically connected minority. This is in sharp contrast with unions in Germany which still mean something.

Anyway I don't give a crap I took political refuge in the US a while back. lol.
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      03-07-2013, 04:15 PM   #44
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Also, just some quick math, you mentioned 18/hour being 25k. It's actually over 36k, assuming they work 40 hours a week. Maybe you meant part time workers?
Come on let's not let math get in the way of a good argument... Haha yes you're right I had a brain fart. Still 18 Euros an hour is hardly comparable to what our union friends are making.
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