[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I don't forget that I'm part of a small sales group. I just realize that BMW doesn't make anything that targets me anymore. The used to, but they've shifted to targeting non enthusiasts, and the product has followed (as have increased sales, since there's more of them).

In 2002, I wanted to own every car that BMW made. Today.... I want to own every car BMW made in 2002.

Today, the F30 3 series has worse driving dynamics than the competing Lexus or Cadillac. That statement would have been so absurd in 2002 that you would have instantly lost credibility for anything else you said.

BMW built their brand on appealing to enthusiasts (the 2002 and tii were what established them in the USA, and were the first sport sedans), and at this point have 100% forsaken us. It's certainly good for their short term sales, but I do wonder how it will effect them long term. The exact non enthusiast they're targeting buy them over Mercedes/Audis precisely because of their "ultimate driving machine" reputation. At some point, that will no longer be what they're known for... and then they're just a worse Mercedes.

In 2002 you were 11 years younger. With every new generation of models, a portion of owners of previous models "ages out" because they're unwilling to accept change and progress. They're replaced by a mostly younger demographic who are open to advancements. No company is going to gear their future to a dying market share, because they wouldn't be around long. You can wail about the good old days as much as you want, but increasingly fewer people are listening. Thus it always has been, and will be.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by late apex

Any car M division makes is a "real M car". Successful companies cannot live in the past, they have to continue with product development and keep up with modern trends. Not to mention be innovative and first to the market with certain things. If you like older BMWs, they're still around to be bought! Don't expect the company to stop progressing and move backwards... with the new regulations in place they couldn't do it even if they wanted. Porsche is known for producing driver's cars as well, yet they also have noise generators and automated gear boxes. Hell, some people are upset the new GT3 doesn't come with a manual. I like one Porsche's engineer response "Yes, we love manuals too, but we love winning even more!). No company is investing money in manual transmissions anymore... it's outdated technology. That would be like IT companies spending money on coax cable instead of fiber optic.

The new M cars are not out of place on a track! You're just not paying attention to them because they're not what they used to be (but they're faster than ever). Some people are slow to accept change, there's nothing wrong with that.

Pretty sure the car I suggested (carbon fiber tub sedan with N52) would get better fuel economy than an F30 335i-- much less bulk to drag around. And it would certainly be moving forward. My suggestion was not that they should live in the past, so much as it was that I wish they would continue to build cars to the same ideals they did 10 years ago. Either way, I don't expect BMW to do it-- they make more money selling more cars to non enthusiasts with their plan.

I am among the people very sad about the loss of 6mt in the GT3. The ultimate 911 for me is the 997.2 GT3 for sure. I am hoping they'll make a Cayman R(S?) with 6mt, as the cayman is a much better starting place than the 911 anyway. The 911 has gone soft/GT enough that they could probably justify the case for another segment for it these days.

Certainly there's still used BMW to be bought. Ten years from now, that's going to be a trickier situation. I wanted to get my wife an e46 3 series wagon, but they're all already pretty beat... so we're going to getting her an e91 instead. It's just not possible to get a used e46 in the condition I want anymore (at least in non Ms, plenty of M3 bubble cars around still). The hunt for a no idrive, no automatic, no awd, post facelift wagon is not a short one, however.

I don't even know how to respond to someone thinking an M6 is in its element on track. A video of it on the ring in no way proves anything (for that matter, the ring is a track unlike any other-- large/heavy/high power cars are way more in there element there than any other track).

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

What are you disagreeing with in my statement?

I said nothing about old vs new. I said I like both, having BOTH in my stable for their specific strengths.

I feel like your statement is just exaggeration and lacks proper first hand experience, something I get every day by driving each of the two cars. Manuals suck to shift? What? Engines that lag? What?

I war responding to "But what you said today, about the F30 vs IS and ATS, well it's less about BMW and more about the competency of the competition."

I have lots of experience with the new cars. I've had them as loaners and have a friend that works at the local dealership, so I routinely borrow all of their new cars to play with.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

In 2002 you were 11 years younger. With every new generation of models, a portion of owners of previous models "ages out" because they're unwilling to accept change and progress. They're replaced by a mostly younger demographic who are open to advancements. No company is going to gear their future to a dying market share, because they wouldn't be around long. You can wail about the good old days as much as you want, but increasingly fewer people are listening. Thus it always has been, and will be.

Perhaps. But, Mercedes, audi, and Lexus are upping their game with each generation. Two out of the three already drive better than the BMW. There's also new cars coming to the scene that are pretty kickass-- the alfa 4C looks like it's going to be amazing (if only you could get it with an N52!), the BRZ/FRS speaks to the right mentality (though it's too cheap feeling for me).

BMW is going the opposite direction of everyone else. It'll be interesting to see how it affects them long term.

[late apex]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Pretty sure the car I suggested (carbon fiber tub sedan with N52) would get better fuel economy than an F30 335i-- much less bulk to drag around. And it would certainly be moving forward. My suggestion was not that they should live in the past, so much as it was that I wish they would continue to build cars to the same ideals they did 10 years ago. Either way, I don't expect BMW to do it-- they make more money selling more cars to non enthusiasts with their plan.

I am among the people very sad about the loss of 6mt in the GT3. The ultimate 911 for me is the 997.2 GT3 for sure. I am hoping they'll make a Cayman R(S?) with 6mt, as the cayman is a much better starting place than the 911 anyway. The 911 has gone soft/GT enough that they could probably justify the case for another segment for it these days.

Certainly there's still used BMW to be bought. Ten years from now, that's going to be a trickier situation. I wanted to get my wife an e46 3 series wagon, but they're all already pretty beat... so we're going to getting her an e91 instead. It's just not possible to get a used e46 in the condition I want anymore (at least in non Ms, plenty of M3 bubble cars around still). The hunt for a no idrive, no automatic, no awd, post facelift wagon is not a short one, however.

I don't even know how to respond to someone thinking an M6 is in its element on track. A video of it on the ring in no way proves anything (for that matter, the ring is a track unlike any other-- large/heavy/high power cars are way more in there element there than any other track).



I war responding to "But what you said today, about the F30 vs IS and ATS, well it's less about BMW and more about the competency of the competition."

I have lots of experience with the new cars. I've had them as loaners and have a friend that works at the local dealership, so I routinely borrow all of their new cars to play with.

I wasn't necessarily trying to say the M6 is a track car, just that it's track capable. Nobody in their right mind looking for a track car is purchasing an M6. But M6 owners can take their car to the track and it's not out of place... it'll perform just fine for 99% of drivers. Most people that own high performance track cars can't push them to the limit anyway... they have them for bragging rights.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I war responding to "But what you said today, about the F30 vs IS and ATS, well it's less about BMW and more about the competency of the competition."

I have lots of experience with the new cars. I've had them as loaners and have a friend that works at the local dealership, so I routinely borrow all of their new cars to play with.

Ah, the old cliche I drove the loaners...

I am talking about plopping down money to own a car for 5 years.

When you go and drive a C250/350, an A4, G37/Q50, IS250/350 and ATS 3.6/2.0, you MAY find a couple that steer better, or a couple that have a bit less body roll. But I don't buy a steering rack, I don't buy struts and swaybars, I buy a car that is the best all around package.

The F30 is still the benchmark for the segment for best all around car. I don't care about what someone is paid to write, I care about MY money and buying the best car.

I have driven some TERRIBLE F30s as loaner. Xdrive soft cars with terrible steering and handling, 335 RWD Sports with terrible brakes-heavy front ends that dont seem to want to change direction as well as the 328s, horrible square all seasons, BASE cars with flat seats and floaty suspensions.

But drive an MSport with staggered summer tires and a nice manual transmission and it's quite a bit better. Perfect? No. I like a bit more steering feedback and heft, things I got with lighter wheels, non RFTs and lowering springs.

So who cares if the IS and ATS have SLIGHTLY better steering or a bit less body roll than with the 3 series. But in return with the 3-you get better drivetrains(a BMW hallmark), impressive fuel economy(N20 or N55), best in class acceleration(breaking into the 13's with a 328!!!), nice ergonomic interior, more cabin space-rear legroom-trunk space, Damn good looks with the MSport....and so on, the WHOLE package, BMW still has it.

It's like dating vs who you marry. You don't marry a pair of tits. You marry the whole package.

Not talking as a fanboi I assure you, not a BMW or F30 fanboi. But I know the old cars and new cars and there is a LOT to like about both.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

In 2002 you were 11 years younger. With every new generation of models, a portion of owners of previous models "ages out" because they're unwilling to accept change and progress. They're replaced by a mostly younger demographic who are open to advancements. No company is going to gear their future to a dying market share, because they wouldn't be around long. You can wail about the good old days as much as you want, but increasingly fewer people are listening. Thus it always has been, and will be.

BTW, even if you accept all of this to be true, everything I said is still 100% relevant to the thread. "Best" is a subjective term, and the thread is asking if BMW's best days are behind it. For what I want in a car, absolutely BMW's best days are behind it, without a doubt. I want nothing that they make anymore, as opposed to everything 11 years ago.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Obioban

BTW, even if you accept all of this to be true, everything I said is still 100% relevant to the thread. "Best" is a subjective term, and the thread is asking if BMW's best days are behind it. For what I want in a car, absolutely BMW's best days are behind it, without a doubt. I want nothing that they make anymore, as opposed to everything 11 years ago.

I kind of agree with you here.

But the shopper I was in 2002 is not the shopper I am today.

I wish there was one car for me, but there is not-I need two.

The cars I wanted in 2002 would not be the cars I want for my DD today.

In 2002, I did not care as much for a DD and the compromises those cars made(small back seats, bad gas mileage etc) meant less to me at 22.

At 33, I am in a different place. BMW now makes cars for me at this time in my life.

On the flip side, if I were to replace my toy and not my DD, BMW does not sell a single car I would consider.

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by Obioban

BTW, even if you accept all of this to be true, everything I said is still 100% relevant to the thread. "Best" is a subjective term, and the thread is asking if BMW's best days are behind it. For what I want in a car, absolutely BMW's best days are behind it, without a doubt. I want nothing that they make anymore, as opposed to everything 11 years ago.

Looks from your car list that that happened 8 years ago, so why all the sudden moaning now? And why do you give so much credence to new untried models from other manufacturers while you're performing Hamlet about BMW? BMW has taken a large step with the M3/M4, and their competition knows it, even if you're completely clueless about it. You've made it clear that you want nothing that BMW makes anymore...about 14 times in this thread. Everybody gets your point. What's the matter with kids these days, right?

[Red Bread]

1M Coupe, gone, but it sounds like the M235i is likely to be similar. If you like the E46 M3 and haven't driven a 1M, you should.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Looks from your car list that that happened 8 years ago, so why all the sudden moaning now? And why do you give so much credence to new untried models from other manufacturers while you're performing Hamlet about BMW? BMW has taken a large step with the M3/M4, and their competition knows it, even if you're completely clueless about it. You've made it clear that you want nothing that BMW makes anymore...about 14 times in this thread. Everybody gets your point. What's the matter with kids these days, right?

It's the subject of the thread. If you don't want to read about it, don't read the thread.

The e60/e90 generation were ugly and had bad interiors (and the center console didn't aim at the driver, and they replaced spare tires with run flats), but they did a lot of things right. The e60 M5 in particular has a lot of things I like-- NA high revving engine, aluminum chassis, alu/mag engine, proper rack and pinion steering (way better feel than the e39's reticulating ball), etc. I would argue that the engine and chassis of the F10 is actually a technological step backwards from the e60, though I'm sure both are cheaper to make.

I'm curious how old you think I am

Originally Posted by Red Bread

1M Coupe, gone, but it sounds like the M235i is likely to be similar. If you like the E46 M3 and haven't driven a 1M, you should.

There's a LOT that's awesome about the 1M, and then one thing that kills it for me-- the engine. If they had sold a 1M with the S65... I'm pretty sure it would have been the best BMW made for my wants, ever. I would certainly have one. But, I don't like torque, I don't like lag, and I don't like overheated on track... so the turbo engine is a complete deal breaker for me.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I kind of agree with you here.

But the shopper I was in 2002 is not the shopper I am today.

I wish there was one car for me, but there is not-I need two.

The cars I wanted in 2002 would not be the cars I want for my DD today.

In 2002, I did not care as much for a DD and the compromises those cars made(small back seats, bad gas mileage etc) meant less to me at 22.

At 33, I am in a different place. BMW now makes cars for me at this time in my life.

On the flip side, if I were to replace my toy and not my DD, BMW does not sell a single car I would consider.

I can actually see that. 95% of my driving is spirited. I live in the country and and tailored my commute specifically because I wanted that. If I had to drive in cities and/or sat in traffic, I'd probably want a softer car or DD duties.

But... it would likely be a benz.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I can actually see that. 95% of my driving is spirited. I live in the country and and tailored my commute specifically because I wanted that. If I had to drive in cities and/or sat in traffic, I'd probably want a softer car or DD duties.

But... it would likely be a benz.

No manual trans means it's a car I do not consider. So MB has nothing for me.

My F30 is just soft enough to be uber comfy, but firm enough to still be a sporting car. Trust me, with the sport suspension+H&Rs, 275mm rear PSS', it's a very cable car. It just needs a rear sway bar.

But 99% will never experience such a car as dealers do not seem to stock f30s with manuals or RWD in the snow states.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

No manual trans means it's a car I do not consider. So MB has nothing for me.

My F30 is just soft enough to be uber comfy, but firm enough to still be a sporting car. Trust me, with the sport suspension+H&Rs, 275mm rear PSS', it's a very cable car. It just needs a rear sway bar.

But 99% will never experience such a car as dealers do not seem to stock f30s with manuals or RWD in the snow states.

There's a couple unicorns.



I honestly don't know what I'd get if I were in that market. Hopefully I'll never have to think about it.

[Obioban]

Related to topic of thread: http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=894098

[davesaddiction]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Related to topic of thread: http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=894098

And this: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=893548

Ugh. At least it's not a recording...

[davesaddiction]

MT, Best Driver's Car:

"BMW's illustrious M division built its name on cars that were light, nimble, communicative, and begging to be driven as hard as possible. The M6 is the antithesis of that ethos."

[IEDEI]

E82 1-series = LAST of the old-school-type BMWs.

i'm glad i bought one while i can. have had it 2 weeks and its amazing. for those of you saying they don't sell anything that captures the spirit of the company----you're wrong! the E82 and E88 definitely did...but production is ending soon.

BMW, as a company, is definitely about to change even more BIG TIME. Whether it's all bad or not, it remains to be seen.

[krnnerdboy]

BMW still makes the best daily drivers...period

Fast, efficient, and more comfortable than ever. But I'm not sold on their performance models anymore

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by krnnerdboy

BMW still makes the best daily drivers...period

Fast, efficient, and more comfortable than ever. But I'm not sold on their performance models anymore

I agree.

I have hopes that the F80/82 M3 will change my opinion.

[Saladina]

I test drove the 435i, and I am pleased to note that its handling and performance are improved over my 335i coupe, 6MT, summer performance, sports.
So I will get one!

[davesaddiction]

C&D, Dec '13

Alterman: "I... came away thinking that the BMW 5-series is now like a Toyota"

535i xDrive finishes 4th in a 4-car comparison. "...seems to have lost touch with what once made us go gaga for the model." Negatives: "Clomping ride, ponderous handling, wooden steering." Sad.

On the CTS 3.6: "The best BMW that BMW doesn't build."

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by davesaddiction

C&D, Dec '13

Alterman: "I... came away thinking that the BMW 5-series is now like a Toyota"

535i xDrive finishes 4th in a 4-car comparison. "...seems to have lost touch with what once made us go gaga for the model." Negatives: "Clomping ride, ponderous handling, wooden steering." Sad.

On the CTS 3.6: "The best BMW that BMW doesn't build."

That pretty much sums up the current situation.

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

In 2002 you were 11 years younger. With every new generation of models, a portion of owners of previous models "ages out" because they're unwilling to accept change and progress. They're replaced by a mostly younger demographic who are open to advancements. No company is going to gear their future to a dying market share, because they wouldn't be around long. You can wail about the good old days as much as you want, but increasingly fewer people are listening. Thus it always has been, and will be.

That statement sounds like an adult trying to understand a younger generation. The same type of person that thinks technology is the only thing that attracts us. I promise you I am younger than you are, and I agree with Obioban's statement.

Quite frankly BMW is in for a rude awakening in about 10-15 years. They have completely lost my age group. I have only met one other person my age that like BMW's. Everyone else loves Audi. Its quite obvious to me that what BMW is doing currently IS NOT attracting a younger generation.