F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > 2012-2019 BMW 3 and 4-Series Forums > General F30 Sedan / F32 Coupe / F36 Gran Coupe Forum > Does 6mt pull the same as 8at?
TAG Motorsports
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-28-2014, 04:41 PM   #1
Wildcat24
Private
 
Drives: Jeep Cherokee
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA

Posts: 63
iTrader: (0)

Does 6mt pull the same as 8at?

Hey guys, I'm not trying to open up a which is better. I have read a handful of different people say that the 8at felt quicker to them than the 6mt. Is that just because of the quick shifts or what? They should pull the same shouldn't they? Or does one feel like it pulls harder for some reason. Like with the MPPK the auto gets 15 more torque. Are you really going to feel it accelerate any different in the 8at than the 6mt? Don't care which one is quicker quarter mile or 0-60. Basically, with MPPK (preferably since this is what I'm ordering) or stock, if you put both transmissions in second gear and hit it, are you going to feel any difference?
Wildcat24 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 04:50 PM   #2
floydarogers
Curmudgeon and Pedant
 
floydarogers's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 335d
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Renton, WA

Posts: 840
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat24 View Post
Hey guys, I'm not trying to open up a which is better. I have read a handful of different people say that the 8at felt quicker to them than the 6mt. Is that just because of the quick shifts or what? They should pull the same shouldn't they? Or does one feel like it pulls harder for some reason. Like with the MPPK the auto gets 15 more torque. Are you really going to feel it accelerate any different in the 8at than the 6mt? Don't care which one is quicker quarter mile or 0-60. Basically, with MPPK (preferably since this is what I'm ordering) or stock, if you put both transmissions in second gear and hit it, are you going to feel any difference?
If the 8at is in a mode or gear (not 2nd by default) that the torque converter is locked, there should be no difference. 15 ft-lbs of torque out of ~240 or ~300 won't make that much difference.

What really makes a difference is the traction at the wheels. That's why an xDrive car makes a little better time to 60 mph than a RWD car, and it's why on a drag strip that shifting BEFORE redline (to prevent wheelspin on the next gear) and a LSD make a big difference.
floydarogers is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 04:53 PM   #3
glennQNYC
Captain
 
glennQNYC's Avatar
 
Drives: M Sport 335i
Join Date: May 2013
Location: North Jersey

Posts: 686
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 335i  [4.83]
Considering the manual is a 6 speed, and the auto is an 8 speed a fair comparison would have to be one that both vehicles are sharing a near-identical gear ratio. I’m not sure that equals both in 2nd gear…
__________________
glennQNYC is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 05:02 PM   #4
Gio72
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: F32 435i Msport MPPK + MPE
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Italy-Venice

Posts: 348
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Considering the manual is a 6 speed, and the auto is an 8 speed a fair comparison would have to be one that both vehicles are sharing a near-identical gear ratio. Iím not sure that equals both in 2nd gearÖ
No, as far as I know, gear ratios are totally different: they are shorter, of course, on the 8AT.
As a matter of fact, because of shorter gear ratios and quickness of steptronic, BMW claims 0"3 less in 0-62mph for the 8AT (for example, 5"1 vs 5"4 for 435i RWD and 4"9 vs 5"2 for AWD)
__________________
BMW 435i Msport with DHP, MPPK and MPE!
My stock exhaust is for sale
Gio72 is offline   Italy
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 05:05 PM   #5
Wildcat24
Private
 
Drives: Jeep Cherokee
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA

Posts: 63
iTrader: (0)

Didn't mean to get hung up on a particular gear. Basically asking if the manual feels like it pulls as hard as the automatic? Are the quick shifts the only reason the auto "feels" faster

Last edited by Wildcat24; 05-28-2014 at 05:13 PM.
Wildcat24 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 05:19 PM   #6
Vegetable
First Lieutenant
 
Vegetable's Avatar
 
Drives: 435i M-Sport MT
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Orange County

Posts: 398
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat24 View Post
Didn't mean to get hung up on a particular gear. Basically asking if the manual feels like it pulls as hard as the automatic? Are the quick shifts the only reason the auto feels "faster"
I feel like the MT pulls slightly harder, but I felt the same way in the e92 with the MT vs the 6-speed Auto- and even then I believe the auto was said to be faster....
I have driven both cars before I pulled the trigger on my 435 MT and know the AT is supposedly faster to 60, but I felt the manual had the edge (even though it apparently doesn't).. it's funny because I have read some posts here where people say that the MT car felt like a "de-tuned version of the 435i/335i," absolutely ridiculous! I guess you should drive both, but good luck finding a MT car to test drive.
Vegetable is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 05:24 PM   #7
v1k1ng01
Likes Cake!
 
v1k1ng01's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 335i m-sport
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Mainz, Gemany

Posts: 232
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat24 View Post
Hey guys, I'm not trying to open up a which is better. I have read a handful of different people say that the 8at felt quicker to them than the 6mt. Is that just because of the quick shifts or what? They should pull the same shouldn't they? Or does one feel like it pulls harder for some reason. Like with the MPPK the auto gets 15 more torque. Are you really going to feel it accelerate any different in the 8at than the 6mt? Don't care which one is quicker quarter mile or 0-60. Basically, with MPPK (preferably since this is what I'm ordering) or stock, if you put both transmissions in second gear and hit it, are you going to feel any difference?
The 8 speed ZF Auto simply delivers the power of the N55 to the wheels more effectively then the 6-speed manual can. It don't think that's always the case for the smaller engines though.

It's like the difference between comparing VHS to Blue Ray. They are both are effective at what they do, but one is analogue and the other is generations ahead. Newer isn't always better though, 6speed is still much more fun and enjoyable for the driving enthusiast then the ZF auto. You just wont be winning any drag races against any of your ZF auto equipped counterparts.

That said whether you feel the difference of the power between the 2 gear boxes is not really correct. It's more like: "the car can shift faster and better then you" with the auto which kinda takes away from the involvement of driving if you ask me.

Last edited by v1k1ng01; 05-28-2014 at 05:43 PM.
v1k1ng01 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 05:25 PM   #8
Wildcat24
Private
 
Drives: Jeep Cherokee
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA

Posts: 63
iTrader: (0)

Yeah, that's the problem. Can't find one within 500 miles, lol. So I've only driven the sports auto. That's why I'm trusting your guys experience : )
Wildcat24 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 05:25 PM   #9
FC4
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 435i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: US

Posts: 440
iTrader: (0)

I've driven both. Can't say there is a difference in acceleration feel, although they were a few days apart.

Theoretically the MT will be faster from a roll due to less drivetrain loss and lighter weight. This is the case when you compare two identical cars with different transmissions, and there are countless videos you can find. I can't think of one car which is offered with both where the AT is faster than the MT from a roll, and rolling acceleration is exactly the "pull" you're talking about.
FC4 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 05:27 PM   #10
Wildcat24
Private
 
Drives: Jeep Cherokee
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA

Posts: 63
iTrader: (0)

And for the record it's a 335i m sport with mpe and mppk I'm ordering
Wildcat24 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 05:45 PM   #11
chrisny
Colonel
 
Drives: Msport '13 335xi & '14 X5 35i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: NY

Posts: 2,273
iTrader: (0)

Any difference in "pull" will be negligible. My 2 cents, if you like to shift yourself, get a MT. If you spend much time in traffic, get the sport auto.
chrisny is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 05:48 PM   #12
3magine
mhmmmm
 
Drives: f30 bad man
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto

Posts: 558
iTrader: (2)

The AT times are faster than MT times. Of course there would then be a difference in how the car feels. The 8-AT should feel faster because it is faster. What's the point of debating gear ratios or anything else. It feels faster because it is faster, end of story.
3magine is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 06:04 PM   #13
kingmonkey8
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: BMW 428i
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK

Posts: 44
iTrader: (0)

M3 6MT vs M3 DCT


Last edited by kingmonkey8; 05-28-2014 at 06:35 PM.
kingmonkey8 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 06:33 PM   #14
rjpeaks
Lieutenant
 
rjpeaks's Avatar
 
Drives: F30 335i M-Sport 6pd
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Huntington Beach

Posts: 408
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisny View Post
Any difference in "pull" will be negligible. My 2 cents, if you like to shift yourself, get a MT. If you spend much time in traffic, get the sport auto.
x2

do you want to hit the gas and hold on, or go thru the gears.

personally, i don't see myself going back to auto for a while unless forced into one. but then again - my commute is about 10 mins.

test drive both.
__________________
335I M-Sport 6spd EBII MPPK MPE DHP HK PDC ZTP ZPS ZPP ZDA ZPK 802.11ac ABC123
rjpeaks is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 06:53 PM   #15
FC4
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 435i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: US

Posts: 440
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingmonkey8 View Post
6MT vs DCT

Good video.

Notice how even with a below-average driver, they are dead even (don't even count race #4...it's obvious he blotched a shift). There are varying times when one starts to creep on the other, but that's all dependent on where they fall in the powerband at that second. Neither is "pulling"...their actual acceleration is as even as it gets. Put a better driver in the DCT and results would be no different. A better driver in the manual, and the results certainly would have been different. Additionally, here we're comparing a 6MT to one of the best performance-tuned DCTs on the market, not a 6MT to a run-of-the-mill torque convertor automatic which is available on every 328i.

Unfortunately, these are the things that stats racers can't see. I'm sure with the DCT M3's 0-60 MPH acceleration advantage over the 6MT, some would have thought the DCT would have ran away, but that's obviously not the case. 0-60 is just an indicator of how well a car can launch, not how hard it pulls. An AT/DCT will always have the advantage in 0-60, but not when it comes to acceleration at speed.

If an AT and MT 335i were to race in the same manner as the video above, I say the results will be just as similar.
FC4 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2014, 07:43 PM   #16
ThaiBruin
Private First Class
 
Drives: 328i 6MT
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Playa Vista, CA

Posts: 141
iTrader: (0)

0-60 is faster on an AT equipped F3x. It's reasonable to assume that an AT will "pull harder". I still went for an MT because... I like flogging my own gears. And really, it's a matter of "get it while you can". AT's are getting so good nowadays that I can't blame manufacturers for ditching MT.
__________________
2013 328i Sport Line 6MT - BMS Stage 1
ThaiBruin is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2014, 09:52 AM   #17
S4NoMore
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 12 328i 6MT, 91 318i
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philly/NEPA

Posts: 270
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1991 BMW 318i  [4.00]
2012 BMW 328i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio72 View Post
As a matter of fact, because of shorter gear ratios and quickness of steptronic, BMW claims 0"3 less in 0-62mph for the 8AT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat24 View Post
Didn't mean to get hung up on a particular gear. Basically asking if the manual feels like it pulls as hard as the automatic? Are the quick shifts the only reason the auto "feels" faster
I would suppose that the auto might feel faster because of the shorter gear ratios. Quickness of shifting not so much, that really just makes up for the fact that it'll have to shift more times vs. the 6-speed.

With 8 shorter gears, when you are ripping down a highway onramp and reach the top of the powerband then take the next gear, the engine resumes pulling at a higher rpm and thus a higher power output. The 6MT drops a bit more and has to swing through lower rpms where there is presumably less power (I'm not looking at a dyno chart but it would be helpful, along with a comparison of rpm vs. speed for AT and MT).
S4NoMore is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2014, 10:02 AM   #18
dc503
Private First Class
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ashburn, VA

Posts: 132
iTrader: (1)

The 8AT or autos in general don't lose boost between shifts like a manual car does, since load is never taken off the motor. There's other factors but that's the main one that differentiates the feel, especially given how quickly the ZF shifts. Empirically, the 8AT is faster and subjectively should feel faster.
__________________
2013 AW 335i ZMM
dc503 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2014, 10:28 AM   #19
NISFAN
Brigadier General
 
NISFAN's Avatar
 
Drives: The best kind of F30 :)
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bedford UK

Posts: 3,675
iTrader: (0)

Quite simply, the sensation you get when accelerating (pushing into seat) is a function of torque AT THE WHEELS. An 8 speed box will have close ratios compared to the 6MT, so is likely to have a higher torque amplification in each gear (due to the higher ratios), same way albeit to a lesser extent as the fact that 1st gear feels stronger than 3rd gear. This means that the average torque at the wheels will be higher with the 8 speed box, therefore feel faster......and is faster.

Technically, if you had a common gear ratio between the two cars (assuming the diff ratio is the same too), and did a roll on race in one gear, the MT should be marginally faster....a.) because it is lighter both physically and inertia wise b.) because it uses more efficient (simple) gear systems c.) It doesn't use engine power to drive an oil pump.....etc.

What you prefer is an entirely different subject.
__________________
NISFAN is offline   England
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2014, 11:46 AM   #20
roundel335
Brigadier General
 
roundel335's Avatar
 
Drives: 13 335i Sedan, 11 128i Cabrio
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Leland, NC

Posts: 3,465
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
More to the point, if you're over the age of 18, why would it even matter? If it feels fast enough to you, what difference does it make? It's been a well-known fact for many years now that in a straight-line drag race, the automatic is going to get the jump on the stick every time, and in most cases, will hold that lead when everything else is the same on the two cars.
__________________

2013 F30 335i M-Sport 8AT/MPE/MPPK, 2011 128i M-sport Cabrio 6MT/PE
roundel335 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2014, 01:15 PM   #21
alpinweiss 335i
Brigadier General
 
alpinweiss 335i's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 f30 335i 6MT M-Sport
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northeast USA

Posts: 3,109
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2013 f30 335i  [5.00]
2012 e92 M3  [5.00]
2013 f30 335i  [4.75]
2006 e90 330i  [5.00]
2003 e46 330xi  [4.00]
I previously had a 2013 f30 335i, M Sport, xDrive, sport auto. I now drive a 2013 f30 335i, M Sport, xDrive, 6MT.


The sport auto was WAY faster and pulled MUCH harder. No kidding. Sometimes I would get a headache after launching it a few times. I feel like it's not even close. To the point where I am closed to being convinced that the 6MT is de-tuned by BMW or something.


8AT > 6MT in that regards. But in everything else, 6MT >>>>>>>>>> 8AT!
__________________
e46
e90
f30
e92 ///M

f30
alpinweiss 335i is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2014, 01:25 PM   #22
Vegetable
First Lieutenant
 
Vegetable's Avatar
 
Drives: 435i M-Sport MT
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Orange County

Posts: 398
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i View Post
I previously had a 2013 f30 335i, M Sport, xDrive, sport auto. I now drive a 2013 f30 335i, M Sport, xDrive, 6MT.


The sport auto was WAY faster and pulled MUCH harder. No kidding. Sometimes I would get a headache after launching it a few times. I feel like it's not even close. To the point where I am closed to being convinced that the 6MT is de-tuned by BMW or something.


8AT > 6MT in that regards. But in everything else, 6MT >>>>>>>>>> 8AT!
Do you work for BMW, by chance? Perhaps there is something wrong with your engine.. or you haven't learned that launching the car in 3rd gear is not how it's done. I kid.. sort of
Vegetable is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:51 PM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST