[Madone69]

Hi all.

My BMW base audio system is not great.I want more clarity and loudness, not huge on base.

I am wanting to upgrade my system speakers ie, 2x front door speakers, 2x underseat subs with the below:


1.Vibe Optisound Bmw mids and tweeters and crossovers (I have the A-pillar trims for the tweeters)
2:H&K underseat subs
3.Vibe 4channel LOC
3.Phase Linear 4channel mosfet amplifier
4.Vibe or JBL rear panel Coaxial speakers

1.What is your opinion on these components. Will they work with the least amount of hassle.
2. The H&K subs will they be a direct replacement for my base subs and will this old school Phase linear amplifier be able to power this without issues
3.Can someone provide me supply with the colour code for the wires I would need to cut into at the radio plug for the LOC connection

Many of the components listed by members here are not available in Cape Town or just cost a fortune. I have the amp, the h&k subs and tweeter covers and most of the wiring.

Any advice and guidance would be greatly appreciated.[/QUOTE

[Billfitz]

First things first, there are no magic speakers that will instantly transform your sound, no matter what the advertising says. The best value is going to be used OEM Hi-Fi or H-K speakers being sold by those who believed the advertising.

[Madone69]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

First things first, there are no magic speakers that will instantly transform your sound, no matter what the advertising says. The best value is going to be used OEM Hi-Fi or H-K speakers being sold by those who believed the advertising.

So sourcing a good used set of H-K mids and tweeters and running them via the LOC and amp is first choice. Would I need additional magical items to run them?

[NealfromNZ]

Ok

So HK mids and Tweeters
Base audio 6.5 woofers

Phase Linear 4 channel amp ( is it the 60x4 rms version?


So what I’d do

Run front speakers and underseat woofer off phase linear but channel 1 & 2 running door speakers and tweeters. Set Low Pass filter to around 120 hz

Channel 3 & 4 running underseat woofers
Set HPF at 120hz

Rear speakers , no change to amplification and run off idrive. Change speakers if desired , you want 4 ohm here.

Cabling

Loc between L & R front speaker outputs from BMW ( assuming the Phase linear only has RCA inputs with 2 volt max )

At the moment the front underseat woofers are in line with the front speakers. The doors are connected via the woofer connector. These need to be split apart.
Run phase linear L&R front to door speakers ( connector point is at underseat woofers )

Underseat woofer change. Don’t go HK with amp . Won’t produce enough power into 8 ohm. Hifi or aftermarket 4 ohm or better still two ohm if the phase linear can run two ohm.


Can be done via a Technic PNP bmw base audio conversion wiring set. Alternatively aliexpress has bmw underseat woofer connectors if you’re up for building your own harness.

Amp , find location like left trunk floor where factory amp is installed.

Run fused power connection of suitable gauge wire to amp. You’ll also need a power on circuit. Run this to the rear fuse box. You want to find a point in the fuse box that only comes on with ignition. Get one of those fused piggy back accessories fuse.

Base audio will either power the current speakers either directly from idrive or if you have ASD this wil be the amp

If you have any info on the post here.

https://technicpnp.com

[Madone69]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

Ok

So HK mids and Tweeters
Base audio 6.5 woofers

Phase Linear 4 channel amp ( is it the 60x4 rms version?


So what I’d do

Run front speakers and underseat woofer off phase linear but channel 1 & 2 running door speakers and tweeters. Set Low Pass filter to around 120 hz

Channel 3 & 4 running underseat woofers
Set HPF at 120hz

Rear speakers , no change to amplification and run off idrive. Change speakers if desired , you want 4 ohm here.

Cabling

Loc between L & R front speaker outputs from BMW ( assuming the Phase linear only has RCA inputs with 2 volt max )

At the moment the front underseat woofers are in line with the front speakers. The doors are connected via the woofer connector. These need to be split apart.
Run phase linear L&R front to door speakers ( connector point is at underseat woofers )

Underseat woofer change. Don’t go HK with amp . Won’t produce enough power into 8 ohm. Hifi or aftermarket 4 ohm or better still two ohm if the phase linear can run two ohm.


Can be done via a Technic PNP bmw base audio conversion wiring set. Alternatively aliexpress has bmw underseat woofer connectors if you’re up for building your own harness.

Amp , find location like left trunk floor where factory amp is installed.

Run fused power connection of suitable gauge wire to amp. You’ll also need a power on circuit. Run this to the rear fuse box. You want to find a point in the fuse box that only comes on with ignition. Get one of those fused piggy back accessories fuse.

Base audio will either power the current speakers either directly from idrive or if you [...]

Thanks very much.
So I finally figured out how to attach pics below.
I don't have crossovers(cannot source the parts for Billfitz units either)...was think about the DSP as per pic below also - your opinion and advice?
I already have the underseat HK woofers...so this will not work with this amp?
LOC - do I go for a 2or4 channel as per pic below. I am comfortable to run new wiring between components if needed.

Any thoughts, suggestions and advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[NealfromNZ]

Not sure about the dsp. Haven’t seen that brand before. The manufacturer has no manuals so couldn’t comment eitherway.


Do you know how much power the phase linear amp makes ? No specs to be found.

[Madone69]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

Not sure about the dsp. Haven’t seen that brand before. The manufacturer has no manuals so couldn’t comment eitherway.


Do you know how much power the phase linear amp makes ? No specs to be found.

I have no specs for the amp unfortunately. I know it powered 2x12inch JLAudio before I got it. I only powered a 12v Rockford.
The dsp is a rebranded Stetsom STX2848 - specs attached.

[NealfromNZ]

DSP looks like it will work and can provide the lpf and HPF for front door and underseat woofers. So try a HPF of 120hz LPF on the doors. And a LPF of 120hz and HPF of 30 hz on a the underseat woofers. Used 24db for slope and use Linkwitz–Riley crossover filters. They have a good suming between underseat woofer and door mid bass. For door tweeter to mid bass make sure there is a factory capacitor on the tweeter otherwise easy to blow.

With Bills crossover component list you could source alternatives in South Africa of via aliexpress. Parts Express are no longer viable internationally as they have high freight costs post Covid-19.

Get the 4 channel Loc as that would give you an option to run a second four channel amp for read doors and a trunk sub later on.

Amp wise it will run the HK woofers , it just won’t make as much power due to 8 ohm load. I’m guessing based on large heat sinks and 30 Amp fuse rating is probably class A/B with around 60 watts x 4 so you’ll get half that rating into the Harman Kardon woofers. The Harmans are reasonably efficient, just balance the output of to the front door and woofers via gain control on dsp.

For time alignment in dsp have a look at the table in my base audio build a few pages in and use the mid door bass and underseat right hand drive values.

[Madone69]

Thanks very much for this guidance. I will get the dsp and do the install and revert with the findings. Much appreciated 🙏

[parmar88]

Hi guys. Great read on this thread so far and was hoping to get some help too please?

I have a 4 series F36 Gran Coupe and I've been digesting a lot of the info on various threads. I have the base audio system and looking to upgrade by adding tweeters and an amp. Will leave the mids and woofers as stock for now and see what improvements I get from an amp.

On the amp front I'm looking at the Audison 5.600 5 channel amp with DSP. Looks to have a decent spec and within budget. Would this be sufficient for what I'm looking to do?

On the wiring front, I'm a gethering info on how to do this but I think I need a LOC (4 channel as discussed above) and then RCA input into the amp. Also a little unsure on wiring the actual speakers. Do I tap into the connectors at the subs or elsewhere as they have a little 4 pin molex connector.

Any help much appreciated!

[Madone69]

Hi again. So I finally installed the HK mids,tweeters and underseat woofers. New wiring to all the above speakers. LOC connection from radio plug to dsp and connection to amp.

Definite improvement but not super. The help I need is in settings of the dsp for this. Or a link as to where I can find this settings.

1. Mids - LPF & HPF
2. Underseat woofers LPF & HPF.
3.L/Riley Crossover filter settings
4.Delay timing settings for mids and woofers.

Thanks in advance.

[NealfromNZ]

For TA use this as a basis to get the ball rolling. Use the mid bass values as more critical to sound stage positioning than tweeter values. When I did this TA spreadsheet it was based on distance rather than fine tuned for phase alignment of mids and woofers. So treat it as a starting point.

Mids either HPF 175 @ 24 db
Alternatively HPF at 110 @ 12 db like factory , but caution on not overdriving mid bass with high volume.

Under seats HPF @ 25 and LPF 175 @ 24 db

Alternately lpf @ 110 @ 12 db

Or if running trunk sub

Underseat , try 45 - 55 hz for HPF try this range.

Trunk sub 0-80 , but note due to trunk location and cabin gain you will find it’s acoustic more like 0-60hz .

With time alignment you’ll have a tradeoff to consider.

Drivers seat tune where you’ll hear a nice image that sits above the dash and is centered towards the driver

Multi seat tune where it’s not quite as good image wise in the drivers position but more balanced for two people in the front.

[NealfromNZ]

Dual seat front tune , centre point is ear level between front seats above armrest.

[Billfitz]

With respect to time align it's different at every spot in the cabin, so unless you always ride solo there's not much point in trying to get it perfect. Besides, we can't hear time align differences of less than 2ms or so. Where setup is concerned it's the last thing I'd worry about.

[NealfromNZ]

Disagree , worth doing and most dsps have more than one map. I can flip four
DSP maps be pressing no 7 memory key and quick toggle through BMW sound profiles depending on who’s in the car.

1.5 feet / 2 ms is material to defining font stage when your sitting so close speakers on one side. Helps define positioning and helps to pull image up.

I know your not interested in taking the hifi system any futher in your car. Not your thing I know , but suggest you get a dsp / amp and try for yourself ( genuine suggestion)

[Madone69]

Ok. So I have entered the hpf & lpf values as per Neil. Whoooo. What difference in sound. Thanks very much.👌

Just for clarity... what is the lpf value for the mids...not listed as above. (I don't wanna miss something or blow something)

I have not done the time delay processing as yet.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

suggest you get a dsp / amp and try for yourself ( genuine suggestion)

I've been using DSP in my HT and pro-sound rigs for 20 odd years. I'd add it to my car if there was a sensibly priced way to do it, but there isn't. For the very slight improvement it would give I've got other things to put my money into...like golf clubs. It's only a five minute drive to the course, it takes four hours to play eighteen holes. A man's got to have his priorities. And if I do want to do some 'critical listening', though what's so critical about listening to music is beyond me, I've got my HT system that's the envy of most recording studios.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by parmar88

Hi guys. Great read on this thread so far and was hoping to get some help too please?

I have a 4 series F36 Gran Coupe and I've been digesting a lot of the info on various threads. I have the base audio system and looking to upgrade by adding tweeters and an amp. Will leave the mids and woofers as stock for now and see what improvements I get from an amp.

On the amp front I'm looking at the Audison 5.600 5 channel amp with DSP. Looks to have a decent spec and within budget. Would this be sufficient for what I'm looking to do?

On the wiring front, I'm a gethering info on how to do this but I think I need a LOC (4 channel as discussed above) and then RCA input into the amp. Also a little unsure on wiring the actual speakers. Do I tap into the connectors at the subs or elsewhere as they have a little 4 pin molex connector.

Any help much appreciated!

IMO you are looking to upgrade things in the correct order. I would suggest different components.

First I would add an Audiotec Fischer Match 7DSP or 8DSP. (The 7DSP has been discontinued so you may be able to get a great price if you can find one.) The amp can easily be installed in the open space under the interior panel in the left trunk alcove. That’s where BMW HiFi and Harman Kardon amplifiers are installed.

This Match amp not only has advanced DSP, it’s designed like two amps in one chassis. One side provides perfect power for speakers. The other side provides much higher power needed by the underseat subwoofers. Match has the only amps truly designed like this for the BMW audio environment.

Match makes a plug and play cable to connect the 7DSP/8DSP amp to the BMW head unit in the dash. See photo. This may plug in directly to your head unit or you may also need a short cable from Match. There are a number of BMW head units but Match has inexpensive plug and play cables to make it simple.

Tip: Doing this now will save you hassle later. It’s pretty easy to pop off the interior trim along the base of the doors to run wire. At the same time that you run this amp/head unit cable, also run high quality 14g copper stranded speaker wire from the Match location to each subwoofer location under the front seats. Use equal length wires. I bought a spool of 25ft speaker wire (dual +/-) and cut it in half. But I found that that length was really cutting it close, so start with something longer if you can.

Your Base Audio system has a midrange speaker in each of the four doors, and a 6.5” sub in an 8” sub cabinet under each of the front seats. Later when you replace them you may find them glued in. Just place the entire cabinet in the freezer for 1-2 hours to make the glue brittle. Then work a plastic trim tool around the sub edges until it pops out.

Once you get the Match amp running with your head unit and the door speakers, you can decide what to upgrade next.

I suggest buying a used Harman Kardon speaker set cheap from someone who drank the marketing KoolAid and replaced their stock HK Speakers. You can replace door midranges and add HK tweeters to all doors. There is probably a bracket already in the top center of your dash that will mount the HK center midrange and tweeter. But your dash pad probably doesn’t have a hole or speaker grille there. You make be able to cut the pad and install the grille, or buy a used dash pad with it already.

There’s plenty already posted about why the Earthquake SWS-8Xi (2-ohm) subwoofers are the best replacements. You’ll also need a pair of Earthquake spacer rings. Very simple to replace subs. Then strip new wire ends and slide into spring connectors on spacer rings.

This would be an amazing upgrade. Far better than a stock HK amp system

[NealfromNZ]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I've been using DSP in my HT and pro-sound rigs for 20 odd years. I'd add it to my car if there was a sensibly priced way to do it, but there isn't. For the very slight improvement it would give I've got other things to put my money into...like golf clubs. It's only a five minute drive to the course, it takes four hours to play eighteen holes. A man's got to have his priorities. And if I do want to do some 'critical listening', though what's so critical about listening to music is beyond me, I've got my HT system that's the envy of most recording studios.

Originally Posted by johnung

IMO you are looking to upgrade things in the correct order. I would suggest different components.

First I would add an Audiotec Fischer Match 7DSP or 8DSP. (The 7DSP has been discontinued so you may be able to get a great price if you can find one.) The amp can easily be installed in the open space under the interior panel in the left trunk alcove. That’s where BMW HiFi and Harman Kardon amplifiers are installed.

This Match amp not only has advanced DSP, it’s designed like two amps in one chassis. One side provides perfect power for speakers. The other side provides much higher power needed by the underseat subwoofers. Match has the only amps truly designed like this for the BMW audio environment.

Match makes a plug and play cable to connect the 7DSP/8DSP amp to the BMW head unit in the dash. See photo. This may plug in directly to your head unit or you may also need a short cable from Match. There are a number of BMW head units but Match has inexpensive plug and play cables to make it simple.

Tip: Doing this now will save you hassle later. It’s pretty easy to pop off the interior trim along the base of the doors to run wire. At the same time that you run this amp/head unit cable, also run high quality 14g copper stranded speaker wire from the Match location to each subwoofer location under the front seats. Use equal length wires. I bought a spool of 25ft speaker wire (dual +/-) and cut it in half. But I found that that length was really cutting it close, so start with something longer if you can.

Your Base Audio system has a midrange speaker in each of the [...]

If you read through the post you’ll see this is a very cost effective way of path taken

The match amp will only give 5 watts rms more to door speakers and 15 watts rms to the Vibe woofers respectively.

Remember Match only does 75rms into 4 ohm in its high powered channels probably enough though )

Something like Mobridge or Lightwave is needed if you want to power up 4 or 8 ohm underseat choices. It will produce twice the power of the Match into 4 ohm and 3-4 times more if sticking with factory Harman Kardon 8 ohm as it runs higher voltage rails when needed.Its also 2 ohm stable , but is current limited to 300 watts.

[NealfromNZ]

Originally Posted by Madone69

Ok. So I have entered the hpf & lpf values as per Neil. Whoooo. What difference in sound. Thanks very much.👌

Just for clarity... what is the lpf value for the mids...not listed as above. (I don't wanna miss something or blow something)

I have not done the time delay processing as yet.

Cool , no LPF needed on the mids as they are connected to the tweeters so you need 175 - 20000hz going through that amp channel.

When you try time alignment see what you think. I think you’ll find it’s worth doing and more than a placebo. But honest feedback please.

[Billfitz]

As long as we're doing a deep dive: https://ethanwiner.com/believe.html

[johnung]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

If you read through the post you’ll see this is a very cost effective way of path taken

The match amp will only give 5 watts rms more to door speakers and 15 watts rms to the Vibe woofers respectively.

Remember Match only does 75rms into 4 ohm in its high powered channels probably enough though )

Something like Mobridge or Lightwave is needed if you want to power up 4 or 8 ohm underseat choices. It will produce twice the power of the Match into 4 ohm and 3-4 times more if sticking with factory Harman Kardon 8 ohm as it runs higher voltage rails when needed.Its also 2 ohm stable , but is current limited to 300 watts.

If you read the Match amp specs it’s putting 65w each into 4ohms for 6 channels of door speakers, and 160w each into 2ohms for 2 underseat subwoofer channels which is why the Earthquake SWS-8Xi (2-ohm) are recommended.