[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Yeah in such a global and tech-dominated world, nearly every automaker is trying to be everything to everybody. The result is that every automaker is objectively making good cars but on the flipside there is less individuality among brands. Clarkson said several years ago that the Germans have been trying to hard to chase the same customer that they are essentially selling the same cars! There's a lot of truth to that.

And in the age of electrification it's going to get even worse. Nearly every vehicle is going to ride on some sort of modular skateboard platform. When you eliminate differences in sound, engine, transmission etc. then there really isn't anything unique about any product besides the superficial shit at the surface such as styling, interior, and tech.

I still strongly feel that the world has gotten a LOT harder for luxury brands and the classic brands like BMW, Mercedes, and etc are not adapting well. They need to pick it up before it is too late...

You have two converging realities that will kill them if they don't find a new path forward...

1. Younger buyers don't value the same features as "luxury" as the older crowd does. They aren't drooling over what type of leather is used in a car's interior (and many aren't even interested in leather at all!). As such luxury won't sell itself based on finishes alone.

2. Technology. Again influenced by younger buyers who want more and more technology, but there is a major caveat here when, again, compared to the older buying crowd that luxury has targeted. The younger crowd don't want automaker created tech and instead they want it from Apple or Google. Meaning iDrive or MBUX or whatever have a harder time differentiating the car maker when the buyer is looking at all brands as equal once they "support CarPlay or Android Auto".

Another sub current that is strongly playing out too is that younger buyers don't see car ownership as a mandatory thing. As such they are getting started driving later and later and are very much OK seeing cars as pure commodities. Meaning they are interested in a future where cars do more and more of the "Driving" for them. Which, again, means the car itself fades more and more into the background.

I've said it a million times, but the luxury brands need to start pivoting toward "experiences" and trust where they make the ownership of a luxury car feel unique and rewarding so they can offer something that can stand out in the transition that can't easily be wiped out by tech and other converging dynamics.

But that will require them to shift to caring a lot more about the customers owning their cars and not just about who drove it off the lot first...

Tesla is in almost every measurement worse than a luxury car and yet they are the brand that the younger generation associates as worth aspiring to obtain... German brands should really let that sink in and understand what's going on there. It isn't just about the "EV" part of it...

[BobBMWX3]

Originally Posted by Opie55

I don't see how this is any different than it has ever been, really. A new Audi is every bit as "different" (however you want to measure that) from a new MB or BMW as a 1965 Ford was from a '65 Chevy. Probably far more different actually, because the way you interface with the car can be dramatically different now - iDrive vs. touch screen etc.

Probably true that not much has changed. Cars are cars and about every manufacturer offers a similar portfolio and that is true over history. Maybe it is just nostalgia of an older generation. Remembering the things that used to be tried in the past with engines, bodies, and the mechanics. I dont get that excited over the latest user interface updates (PiviPro, iDrive, etc).

[BobBMWX3]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

...the luxury brands need to start pivoting toward "experiences" and trust where they make the ownership of a luxury car feel unique and rewarding so they can offer something that can stand out in the transition that can't easily be wiped out by tech and other converging dynamics.

Tesla is in almost every measurement worse than a luxury car and yet they are the brand that the younger generation associates as worth aspiring to obtain... German brands should really let that sink in and understand what's going on there. It isn't just about the "EV" part of it...

I have that many business need to pivot towards experiences to survive. Definitely true with Luxury car brands. A little extra care will make them stand out.

I have known several Tesla owners. All of them brag about the power they get from them off the line. That is what they show off. So, there is still a love of that car driving experience there in them.

[paquet]

I've often thought it comes down to brand image. Right now, Tesla seems to be what the younger generation aspire to. A part of that is driven by the cost, I feel. Environmental concerns are an eyewash (at least to my old cynical mind)
Another part is driven by that off the line performance - as I have heard that before.
Uniqueness of features - that all around recording thing that is supposedly standard(?) is likely another.

Which brings me to the pure driving experience. Be it manual /clutch control or an auto transmission with paddles.
So, how is the driving experience in a Tesla? (Never driven one)

Do you get that feedback like you do in say an M or that otherwise smooth inline 6 power delivery which you can dole out in minute bits or just slam your foot down and go to town?

Oh yeah, to stay on topic, the more expensive model/trims just seem to have better/more 'stuff' in them that's not available in the lower downrange models

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by packet

So, how is the driving experience in a Tesla? (Never driven one)

There's a few ways to describe the experience...

- Imagine watching a fast paced action movie... while it's on mute. You can see things are happening, but most of the excitement is taken away because half of your senses are deprived.

- Look at your laptop. Now imagine driving it.

I know Tesla fans won't agree here.... but to me it's one of the most soulless, anticlimactic driving experiences. No theater, no drama, no effort. You simply mash the pedal down and it goes fast. No explosive jerks from a gearbox shifting into the next gear, no aural pleasures from the building of revs while you wring out every cylinder under the hood, no feeling of connection to the car. It's just effortless, silent, soulless speed. It is THE definition of a spreadsheet car.


All this being said, I totally see application for an all out luxury car (a la EQS). EV power is smooth and silent which is what you want from a plush luxury car and you don't expect a visceral driving experience. But in this department Tesla yet again fails due to poor build quality and lack of quality materials.

But Tesla is absolutely popular and an aspirational car brand simply because it appeals to people who otherwise don't care about cars. It's "cool" and "different".

[paquet]

Fascinating - thank you.
It does not sound fun.
Is it possible to distill the experience to be one of pure speed / response when say, going for an entry/exit point or corner apex?
Or is that muted too? I'm curious about the cornering physics now.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by packet

Fascinating - thank you.
It does not sound fun.
Is it possible to distill the experience to be one of pure speed / response when say, going for an entry/exit point or corner apex?
Or is that muted too? I'm curious about the cornering physics now.

Tesla is as fast as an M5 CS around the Nurburgring and accelerates insanely fast from 0 to 160 or anything in between. The next software update will make both better. It was also the fastest up pikes peak this year.

So may not be the greatest car, but it definitely has serious performance. The interior of the new S Plaid looks very nice in real life. If you must have leather then it falls short. It is currently the only fully electric vehicle that has a proper charging infrastructure…

[omasou]

Originally Posted by FCX5

Tesla is as fast as an M5 CS around the Nurburgring and accelerates insanely fast from 0 to 160 or anything in between. The next software update will make both better. It was also the fastest up pikes peak this year.

So may not be the greatest car, but it definitely has serious performance. The interior of the new S Plaid looks very nice in real life. If you must have leather then it falls short. It is currently the only fully electric vehicle that has a proper charging infrastructure…

Electric motors may give it a ton of torque and speed but if the owner actually used it as frequently as a M5CS owner they would be stranded at the side of the road w/dead batteries.

Just b/c it can doesn't mean it's useable.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by packet

Fascinating - thank you.
It does not sound fun.
Is it possible to distill the experience to be one of pure speed / response when say, going for an entry/exit point or corner apex?
Or is that muted too? I'm curious about the cornering physics now.

I haven't taken a Tesla on the track, but if you're focusing strictly on performance as opposed to driver engagement, then yes it will impress. The Tesla is fast and corners relatively well due to the low center of gravity from the batteries.

That being said... it still lacks the visceral feeling you get from a an ICE engine. The Tesla removes complexities from having to worry about rev range and which gear you're in while entering/exiting a corner. From my perspective, those elements add to engagement, excitement and overall satisfaction (in addition to the sound). In a Tesla it's just not as satisfying because it's as simple as stomping on the accelerator regardless of where your engine speed is or what gear you're in.

[dís_f30]

More expensive models compared to the entry level....the it's the basics: size, power, performance, internal materials and tech. Eventually things trickle down to entry level models to shore them as new stuff comes out on the top ends.

[r3dbimmer89]

Originally Posted by packet

Tesla seems to be what the younger generation aspire to.

Yes and no...you're forced to aspire to Tesla because Tesla barely has any competition to speak of. I find loads of friends here in SoCal who were "forced" to buy a Tesla because they all love the idea of an electric car and inspired to own one but no other manufacturer really has anything that beats the range, charge time, and price points of a Tesla (particularly Model 3 and Y).

My good friend's wife just ordered a Model Y after many years of driving X5's because BMW doesn't make an electric SUV with similar range in her price point....yet!