[300hp]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

When xDrive becomes the platform of choice for performance applications, we will talk. xDrive is not there yet!

/thread.

The f3X rwd platform is not there yet, which is why the gold standard is the ATS and the IS350 rwd.

The M3/4 rwd platforms are the gold standards in their respective segments and are even compared to 911s.

Hopefully they fix that with the LCI, it's rumored that's in the works. I am keeping my F30 until the next G3X (if that's what it's called) comes along. As usual I will slap on my xdrive and summer tires on that too

What matters is BMW offers the right product for each individual, it's a win win





No need to end thread, lots of people have different views to ours. It's always an interesting read

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by 300hp

The f3X rwd platform is not there yet, which is why the gold standard is the ATS and the IS350 rwd.

The M3/4 rwd platforms are the gold standards in their respective segments and are even compared to 911s.

Hopefully they fix that with the LCI, it's rumored that's in the works. I am keeping my F30 until the next G3X (if that's what it's called) comes along. As usual I will slap on my xdrive and summer tires on that too

What matters is BMW offers the right product for each individual, it's a win win





No need to end thread, lots of people have different views to ours. It's always an interesting read

What is the "gold standard"? You're just coining terms that don't really make sense at this point.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

This seems to place the ATS behind both the 335i and IS350 F-Sport. To me, I could care less if the IS350 F-Sport squeeked by and surpassed the F30 RWD in a magazine comparo. I decided to join the F30 community because it has a huge BMWCCA community and enthusiast base.

As for the F8x M3/M4 being compared to the 911, they're in different leagues (and segments). I think the reoccurring theme in your arguments is that if they produce similar times in straight line acceleration (which is essentially your argument for RWD vs. xDrive), they are the same. That could not be further from reality.


Yes, the F3x chassis may be superior to the Audi B8.5 chassis. But if we're strictly looking at the AWD system, the Quattro + torque vectoring rear differential is vastly superior to the xDrive.

The bottom line is until BMW implements an xDrive design that is more appealing to enthusiasts or comparable to Audi's Quattro + torque vectoring rear differential, xDrive is simply an AWD system that may be useful if you're dealing with inclement weather such as deep snow + steep inclines. RWD is still the platform of choice for performance applications. Accept it and move on.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

What is the "gold standard"? You're just coining terms that don't really make sense at this point.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test" rel="" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.caranddri...rison-test</a>

This seems to place the ATS behind both the 335i and IS350 F-Sport. To me, I could care less if the IS350 F-Sport squeeked by and surpassed the F30 RWD in a magazine comparo. I decided to join the F30 community because it has a huge BMWCCA community and enthusiast base.

As for the F8x M3/M4 being compared to the 911, they're in different leagues (and segments). I think the reoccurring theme in your arguments is that if they produce similar times in straight line acceleration (which is essentially your argument for RWD vs. xDrive), they are the same. That could not be further from reality.


Yes, the F3x chassis may be superior to the Audi B8.5 chassis. But if we're strictly looking at the AWD system, the Quattro + torque vectoring rear differential is vastly superior to the xDrive.

The bottom line is until BMW implements an xDrive design that is more appealing to enthusiasts or comparable to Audi's Quattro + torque vectoring rear differential, xDrive is simply an AWD system that may be useful if you're dealing with inclement weather such as deep snow + steep inclines. RWD is still the platform of choice for performance applications. Accept it and move on.

http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/se..._sport_sedans/

Show me one of the rwd beating the IS350, until then the two of us can end thread

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by 300hp

http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/se..._sport_sedans/

Show me one of the rwd beating the IS350, until then the two of us can end thread

Read again.

Originally Posted by Polo08816

What is the "gold standard"? You're just coining terms that don't really make sense at this point.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

This seems to place the ATS behind both the 335i and IS350 F-Sport. To me, I could care less if the IS350 F-Sport squeeked by and surpassed the F30 RWD in a magazine comparo. I decided to join the F30 community because it has a huge BMWCCA community and enthusiast base.

As for the F8x M3/M4 being compared to the 911, they're in different leagues (and segments). I think the reoccurring theme in your arguments is that if they produce similar times in straight line acceleration (which is essentially your argument for RWD vs. xDrive), they are the same. That could not be further from reality.


Yes, the F3x chassis may be superior to the Audi B8.5 chassis. But if we're strictly looking at the AWD system, the Quattro + torque vectoring rear differential is vastly superior to the xDrive.

The bottom line is until BMW implements an xDrive design that is more appealing to enthusiasts or comparable to Audi's Quattro + torque vectoring rear differential, xDrive is simply an AWD system that may be useful if you're dealing with inclement weather such as deep snow + steep inclines. RWD is still the platform of choice for performance applications. Accept it and move on.

Quotes from the article you provided:

The Audi S4 is the numbers champ of this test, and it's no slouch in the real world.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Read again.

Quotes from the article you provided:

And with that the two of us can end thread.

[WilliCO]

Originally Posted by 300hp

And with that the two of us can end thread.

I do agree that at the current time, BMW penalizes those of us who want xDrive cars with inferior or limited suspension choices and ride height compromises. And they force us into DHP, which can be brutally expensive on some models - $3500 on a 5 series and $4500 on an X5 - to make up some of the difference.

I used to have a RWD E60 on a sport suspension and I now have an xDrive F10 with DHP. The F10 is as dull as a butter knife compared to the E60. Probably not completely attributable to the xDrive, as the F10 obviously got a bummer chassis design overall. But after this experience, I would never again buy an xDrive BMW other than an X5, which has a slightly different purpose.

The comparative observation about Audi's AWD treatment in this thread is spot on - their philosophy is that AWD should be a performance platform. Look also at this C450AMG that Mercedes has just released - specs look fantastic. I like BMW better as a car company, but I wish they would concede this point and embrace AWD more than they do now.

I used to be a BMW-first guy. This issue in particular has really let me down. My lease ends in August 2016 - there are one or two BMWs on my list for the next car, but they are not at the top of it any longer. Too many compromises away from what I want out of a car.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by WilliCO

I do agree that at the current time, BMW penalizes those of us who want xDrive cars with inferior or limited suspension choices and ride height compromises. And they force us into DHP, which can be brutally expensive on some models - $3500 on a 5 series and $4500 on an X5 - to make up some of the difference.

I used to have a RWD E60 on a sport suspension and I now have an xDrive F10 with DHP. The F10 is as dull as a butter knife compared to the E60. Probably not completely attributable to the xDrive, as the F10 obviously got a bummer chassis design overall. But after this experience, I would never again buy an xDrive BMW other than an X5, which has a slightly different purpose.

The comparative observation about Audi's AWD treatment in this thread is spot on - their philosophy is that AWD should be a performance platform. Look also at this C450AMG that Mercedes has just released - specs look fantastic. I like BMW better as a car company, but I wish they would concede this point and embrace AWD more than they do now.

I used to be a BMW-first guy. This issue in particular has really let me down. My lease ends in August 2016 - there are one or two BMWs on my list for the next car, but they are not at the top of it any longer. Too many compromises away from what I want out of a car.

I feel your pain. I had a 528i xdrive loaner for 2 weeks. Obviously it came with the base suspension. I had enough time to compare the 528i to my E70 X5 35i at the time and X5 35 d now (e70). Both X5s did not have the suspension upgrade.

Length. The F10 was longer and honestly I have no idea what necessitated the desire to increase the length of the 5er.

Suspension
OMG. The 5ers xdrive suspension together with the size of that car is atrocious. The wallowing that you experience in that car can be unnerving. It's simply not a performance based application in base form in the F10. I can tell you for sure that the E70 out handled the 5er at every step. I would be intrigued to see how any engineer can improve on that base setup with DHP (the 3500 package)

I have not driven the F3x in base xdrive form (w/out DHP) but I can't imagine it's anything like the 5er

There are some here who have got the Dinan upgrade to their xdrives. That would be another option. I am happy with DHP, it's only 1k in the F30

[stormlv]

WilliCO

Maybe once the ///M5 AWD gets out, things will change...

[WilliCO]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Suspension
OMG. The 5ers xdrive suspension together with the size of that car is atrocious. The wallowing that you experience in that car can be unnerving. It's simply not a performance based application in base form in the F10. I can tell you for sure that the E70 out handled the 5er at every step.

It's amazing, isn't it. How did BMW greenlight the suspension treatment on the F10? It's really awful, and I agree that an E70 X5 is a better handling car.

DHP helps, but you can tell that it's a band-aid on a poorly conceived suspension design. It does this fore-aft seesawing thing at low speeds (like, in parking lots) that's just completely unacceptable. It's not as bad at speed. I think the nature of DHP is that some driver action or telemetry from the car has to tell it to tighten itself up, and it therefore can betray itself when the drive is relaxed. Maybe that's the point, I don't know...

I drove a few F3X cars. I still like the RWD/704 suspension feel better, but it does seem that the adaptive M suspension DHP approach is a better solution than what they have on the 5 series. $1000 is a much better price for it, too.

Originally Posted by stormlv

WilliCO

Maybe once the ///M5 AWD gets out, things will change...

If that M5 sells well, they may get the message. It will need more than xDrive though - if they were to add xDrive to the F10 M5, it would probably feel heavier and more bloated than it is, and the automotive press would tell everyone to hate it. I hope they use all of the weight reduction technology and better chassis design they have available on that car.

[WWM3]

I've never owned an xDrive, but I'm about to order one. I'm aware of the ride height/suspension so I'll be adding DHP and the Dinan suspension. I'll also be going 6MT. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I will find it fun to drive and also practical in the winter.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by WilliCO

It's amazing, isn't it. How did BMW greenlight the suspension treatment on the F10? It's really awful, and I agree that an E70 X5 is a better handling car.

DHP helps, but you can tell that it's a band-aid on a poorly conceived suspension design. It does this fore-aft seesawing thing at low speeds (like, in parking lots) that's just completely unacceptable. It's not as bad at speed. I think the nature of DHP is that some driver action or telemetry from the car has to tell it to tighten itself up, and it therefore can betray itself when the drive is relaxed. Maybe that's the point, I don't know...

I drove a few F3X cars. I still like the RWD/704 suspension feel better, but it does seem that the adaptive M suspension DHP approach is a better solution than what they have on the 5 series. $1000 is a much better price for it, too.

If that M5 sells well, they may get the message. It will need more than xDrive though - if they were to add xDrive to the F10 M5, it would probably feel heavier and more bloated than it is, and the automotive press would tell everyone to hate it. I hope they use all of the weight reduction technology and better chassis design they have available on that car.

Well my dislike for the 528i was compounded by that skinny steering wheel they put in the base 5ers!!!! Why do they do this. The N20 although a great motor it's just not as beefy as the N55 so the combination of the suspension, steering wheel, size of the 5er and the motor all led to an underwhelming experience. The N55, better steering wheel and DHP would obviously cure the majority of those concerns

The new X6 should have the torque vectoring xdrives. It's a step ahead of the xdrives we have in the F30s. As someone said the coming m5 may also have xdrive. But I think the 5er can tone down its length, it's too long IMO and hopefully they can shorten it a bit and at the same time reduce weight

[BMW335iOn18s]

What ruins X-drive BMWs is how high and how soft they are to drive. The steering is even more lifeless than RWD. Everytime we get one as a loaner I can't even believe i'm driving a car with a BMW badge on the steering wheel, it might as well be a lexus with a shitter interior

[tjlees]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

What ruins X-drive BMWs is how high and how soft they are to drive. The steering is even more lifeless than RWD. Everytime we get one as a loaner I can't even believe i'm driving a car with a BMW badge on the steering wheel, it might as well be a lexus with a shitter interior

Wow.

AC schnitzer springs will sort out the suspension, ride height and some turn-in feel, however base model f30 anything is not great without m suspension or adaptive.

I just had a go in some pork (911 997.2 with pdk). The handling (feel and feedback), noise, performance and grip are astounding, but the ride and balance are much better in a 335dx with adaptive suspension.

Where as the porsche 997 bounces around and tramlines at speed, the f30 suspension isolates the road's worse bits, yet allows you to hold the cornering line without too much lean and some feel. Sure it understeers on the slower corners, sometimes the nose feels heavy and occasionally you have wait for the suspension to catch up on a direction change, however on my favourite (now potholed) twisties the f30 flows and with that 8 speed auto on manual, it puts a big smile on your face

The f30 adaptive suspension on a 335dx is in a different league to 997.2 IMHO. I'm sure on a track the porsche would leave the f30 standing but on the UK public road, the experience is better in the bmer.

If the 335dx is this good for me, then a 335i with m sport and/or adaptive must be amazing

[itrocks4u]

After reading these 10 pages, I've decided to stick with 435i instead of x-drive... in Toronto.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by itrocks4u

After reading these 10 pages, I've decided to stick with 435i instead of x-drive... in Toronto.

Good choice. I had a RWD E90 in Chicago and use the OEM recommended winter RFT and it was fine.

I wouldn't bother with the detuned xdrive suspension and extra weight. If I was really focused on AWD due to steep hills I would get an STi or a truck

[wakebord99]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

What ruins X-drive BMWs is how high and how soft they are to drive. The steering is even more lifeless than RWD. Everytime we get one as a loaner I can't even believe i'm driving a car with a BMW badge on the steering wheel, it might as well be a lexus with a shitter interior

I'll be honest, with the 335xi M sport i disagree whole heartedly. I think the car is borderline harsh on most rough roads, and no floaty at-all. I've tracked my car several times and although i can agree when pushed the 10/10ths the car needs help, at 9/10ths the car is just fine. Sporty while not punishing.

To each their own however with the suspension. Some people think sporty means lotus, while others think sporty means honda accord lx on 16" wheels.

[tjlees]

Originally Posted by wakebord99

I'll be honest, with the 335xi M sport i disagree whole heartedly. I think the car is borderline harsh on most rough roads, and no floaty at-all. I've tracked my car several times and although i can agree when pushed the 10/10ths the car needs help, at 9/10ths the car is just fine. Sporty while not punishing.

To each their own however with the suspension. Some people think sporty means lotus, while others think sporty means honda accord lx on 16" wheels.

The 335i, 335ix and 335dx are all good cars IHMO. 335i with adaptive gives RWD experience with selectable ride quality. The other 335 xdrives gives traction with minimal balance change and an extra 125lb.

Personally I would have loved to have gone for the Alpina 335d, however, though our winters don't involve several feet of snow for months on end, I suspect two or three inches on our 1:6 hills would even scupper a RWD on winters for the few snowy days. Unfortunately, if I can't get to my customers I don't earn.

[ohrich]

Good choice on going xdrive.

It's not so bad.... GTR's come this way as well

[Beowulf65]

Well, my wife and I started out with a 1973 2002 sedan and loved it. After many years (family, etc.) we have returned to BMW as we both love to drive. Mind you we have never changed tires for winter and only use A/S. So...we went with a 2015 435i xDrive Gran Coupé. We are not really into pushing the envelope when we drive, so I suspect the xDrive will be just fine for our needs...and give us plenty of fun!

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Beowulf65

Well, my wife and I started out with a 1973 2002 sedan and loved it. After many years (family, etc.) we have returned to BMW as we both love to drive. Mind you we have never changed tires for winter and only use A/S. So...we went with a 2015 435i xDrive Gran Coupé. We are not really into pushing the envelope when we drive, so I suspect the xDrive will be just fine for our needs...and give us plenty of fun!

How much/often snow/ice and sub-freezing temperatures are you dealing with in Canada?

Given your location, most on this forum would probably recommend you invest in winter tires regardless of whether you have RWD or AWD.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Beowulf65

Well, my wife and I started out with a 1973 2002 sedan and loved it. After many years (family, etc.) we have returned to BMW as we both love to drive. Mind you we have never changed tires for winter and only use A/S. So...we went with a 2015 435i xDrive Gran Coupé. We are not really into pushing the envelope when we drive, so I suspect the xDrive will be just fine for our needs...and give us plenty of fun!

Originally Posted by Polo08816

How much/often snow/ice and sub-freezing temperatures are you dealing with in Canada?

Given your location, most on this forum would probably recommend you invest in winter tires regardless of whether you have RWD or AWD.

I live in Toronto and wouldnt even consider anything but 4 winter tires every winter. I've had 2 BMWs........both RWD. I did have to plan my route a few times a year when it snowed hard as to avoid big hills etc. But never got really stuck. I've had 5 Audis with 4 winters an never had to think about anything.

[Beowulf65]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

How much/often snow/ice and sub-freezing temperatures are you dealing with in Canada?

Given your location, most on this forum would probably recommend you invest in winter tires regardless of whether you have RWD or AWD.

We have driven in serious Canadian winter weather for 47 years now and have never used winter tires. This will be our first AWD car...even the 1973 BMW 2002 sedan was fine. We did have to add some stage weights over the rear axle as that car was a bit light for snow. Neither of us has ever had an accident due to snow/ice...pretty careful I guess. Who knows...also lucky? A few times, a bit difficult to get up a steep, heavily snowed city street and I think xDrive will help with that situation. If we lived in Montréal, we probably would go for winter tires.