[drob23]

Originally Posted by 300hp

+1, it interests me when people complain about what happens at the limits when most probably don't know what those limits are.

MT also use Randy (sparingly) for some of their reviews and I find those reviews enlightening. His review of the new Dodge Viper was hilarious.

If I am not mistaken Randy has the best lap time of a production vehicle at Laguna Seca, in a ZR1

It doesn't take a professional driver to take a car "to the limit". It takes a good driver to go fast around a track - hit proper apex's, know when to brake, when to gas out of a turn, not hit the guard rail LOL. But anyone who knows how to drive can throw around a car during an autocross. Hell, you can slam on the brakes and ABS will keep you "at the limit." You can find out a cars limits simply by mashing the gas and turning the wheel

It's what people are doing on snow covered parking lots...only there a low mu situation makes it pretty easy to find the limits for better or worse.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by tony20009

At one point, I thought you credible. I don't think so any longer.

F1 drivers aren't the only people in the world who can adequately drive a car and report on it to the general public, and folks having as much or more skill than the folks at those magazines, don't need the magazine's opinions for they are well equipped to decide for themselves. Even people like me, with no particular driving skills, can decide themselves.

The magazines are there. They are nice to read. They are mildly entertaining, but they hold no sway with me, or any other intelligent buyer. I may consider a car because they like it, but what I choose to buy will be determined by my opinion based on my driving the car, regardless of whether some magazine editor likes it or not.


Also, given that F1 drivers are among the most highly paid, if not the highest, folks in professional sports, why would any of them be on the writing and editorial staff at a car magazine? Even Stig doesn't pull editorial duty on Top Gear; he drives and he's done.

My father was obsessed with buying cars that Consumer Reports recommended.

That is how we wound up with a '78 Pinto wagon and an '83 K-Car wagon.

Yep.

Luckily I got old enough where cars were bought based on my research instead. Things got much better after that lol.

[imyopusha]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Are you hearing ticking with the windows up?

I dunno, maybe I have some special N20. It makes ticking when I am outside the car, I hear virtually nothing when driving. That is the problem to me, the ABSENCE of sound.

I heard it at idle and at low speeds (less than 10 mph). Most notably when I came up to a light or during a cold start, the latter being the loudest. I literally stepped out of the car to listen to it when I first pulled out of the parking lot becauser I could not believe it. So strange. After a while my ears got a bit used to it- but not the exhaust note. It got worse over time and drove me bonkers. It's amazing how fast that little engine is, though. VERY respectable. The E90 328 never pulled that hard.

[Phaeron]

Originally Posted by tony20009

At one point, I thought you credible. I don't think so any longer.

F1 drivers aren't the only people in the world who can adequately drive a car and report on it to the general public, and folks having as much or more skill than the folks at those magazines, don't need the magazine's opinions for they are well equipped to decide for themselves. Even people like me, with no particular driving skills, can decide themselves.

The magazines are there. They are nice to read. They are mildly entertaining, but they hold no sway with me, or any other intelligent buyer. I may consider a car because they like it, but what I choose to buy will be determined by my opinion based on my driving the car, regardless of whether some magazine editor likes it or not.


Also, given that F1 drivers are among the most highly paid, if not the highest, folks in professional sports, why would any of them be on the writing and editorial staff at a car magazine? Even Stig doesn't pull editorial duty on Top Gear; he drives and he's done.

At one point i thought you mild troll but after this post I see that my first impression of you was correct. Trying to use moral high ground to obfuscate an attack is still a personal attack designed to discredit.

A review site testing cars and tracking their "performance" is worthless if the reviewers cannot accurately gauge performance. This is not a ground breaking statements it should be an absolute imperative. Some cars have amazing handling but they are hard to drive. So you give it to some bum who bombs it because he cannot drive it hurts a thing called credibility.

Those magazines cast their findings as facts and yet it is my credibility that is lacking? What because I say who gives a flying shit about a magazine who's editors don't know dick about how to drive a car fast yet cast themselves as experts? Let me ask you this.... Would you employ a man who did not know how to build houses to build a house for you? Would you except a review about a movie from a reviewer who hadn't seen the movie? No.... Would you let a person that had an understanding of cars, fix your car even though he was not a certified mechanic and has never fixed a car in his life? No... Would you let a man who has driven for 15 years with a spotless driving record and has done ONE Autocross in his life professionally race in a Time attack for you? Not on your life.

Of course no one will ever let people who do not know what they are doing to do a job for them. Yet a car is treated like everyone has a valid opinion. Oh, this guy can't drive a car fast and he is having difficulty steering it.. but its okay his opinions are valid even though he doesn't know how to professionally drive... What you have said in your post is basically if a guy can turn the ignition he is competent enough to write a review on the driving dynamics of a car.

Most of you do not even know what steering wheel feedback is... I have even seen people say on this forum that steering feedback doesn't matter at high speeds (WHICH IS THE ONLY TIME IT COUNTS!). All because people here are not drivers... they have a license to drive a car but you aren't experts or authorities. You do not understand that when we professionals talk about steering feedback to an engineer that we are talking about the steering wheel telling us about the corning force the wheels are being subjected to at high speeds. Not some turn at 30mph I mean a hard turn that i hit the brakes hard for at 100mph and am now entering at 50-75+.

For DDs who all they do is grocery get with their cars talking about steering feel and feedback on their daily commutes as if they are some driving gods.. it is insulting to the intelligent. I do not go to a bridge builder and argue with him about building a bridge just because I have built a garage but guess what? You have a driving license and for some reason it makes you think you can argue with a test driver... Amazing. 1 hour road course... a test about driving law, and some years obeying the rules of the road makes you think you are some form of experts on driving cars...

How can I not hide my utter contempt...?

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by imyopusha

I heard it at idle and at low speeds (less than 10 mph). Most notably when I came up to a light or during a cold start, the latter being the loudest. I literally stepped out of the car to listen to it when I first pulled out of the parking lot becauser I could not believe it. So strange. After a while my ears got a bit used to it- but not the exhaust note. It got worse over time and drove me bonkers. It's amazing how fast that little engine is, though. VERY respectable. The E90 328 never pulled that hard.

I don't know if it was the particular car you were in, for example there is a rumor that '12s are noisier than '13s, but I can assure you there is not even a peep of ticking in my car at low speeds.

The only time a tick is heard is OUTSIDE the car or when in my garage upon cold start up. On cold start up, one of the reasons for it being loud is the exhaust flap is open. This is nothing specific to the N20, it's the sound of the injectors on a Direct injected 4.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by Phaeron

...

Those magazines cast their findings as facts...

...

How can I not hide my utter contempt...?

The only thing they offer as fact are the objective results from their tests. Their opinion is just that, editorial commentary based on their impressions. I doubt they would disagree. Why would any reader think it to be otherwise?

Recognizing the magazine's articles for what they are -- the opinions of a writer, no different than what one'd find in the Op Ed pages of newspaper, other than subject matter -- is likely the best way to mitigate the contempt.

EDIT:
BTW, it doesn't bother me at all that you don't agree with their opinion. What I find troublesome, and thus why I don't find you credible, is that you decry their opinion because of who wrote it. If one is going to refute another's position, the rebuttal needs to be based on something other than a fallacious argument. That's the issue I have with what you've been saying.

You seem to know what you are talking about, but you repeatedly make me wonder when you demean the writer rather than providing reasons why the the writer's points derive from incorrect analysis. That's why I don't find you credible; I wonder if you are just upset because they don't agree with you. Were you to remain objective, I wouldn't have issue with your commentary and I would read it and consider it on its own merits.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by drob23

It doesn't take a professional driver to take a car "to the limit". It takes a good driver to go fast around a track - hit proper apex's, know when to brake, when to gas out of a turn, not hit the guard rail LOL. But anyone who knows how to drive can throw around a car during an autocross. Hell, you can slam on the brakes and ABS will keep you "at the limit." You can find out a cars limits simply by mashing the gas and turning the wheel

It's what people are doing on snow covered parking lots...only there a low mu situation makes it pretty easy to find the limits for better or worse.

This is why I mentioned Randy in the post you responded to, the "limits" he talks about are a lot different from the ones you are referring to.

[FogCityM3]

Lots of mis-conceptions about quality of journalist testing and what it means for consumers. Credible mags like C&D actually test using several runs on the track and take the best time (remember reading this from them on one of the VIR compares from a few yrs ago) AND the fastest time isn't necessarily the filming lap. Also, in most comparos its not just one journalist doing the testing but a team that arrives at a consensus opinion (similar to the R&T article referenced).

And yes, there will be journalist driver error and such (they are not as good as race drivers), so it should be a given times aren't going to be the end-all be all, but when several people say "hey the facts speak for themselves" or "facts, not emotions" and cite the F30 time around VIR and then it is pointed out that an old 335i test around the same track that no one knew about actually "beat" (quotes intentional) the F30, it got real quiet about lap times and all the "fact talk". Bottom line is that the times within a few secs from each other don't really matter to begin with given driver variation, conditions, weather, etc, but happens to be convenient to bolster a particular argument. Which brings us to getting as much data and opinions from as many informed/expert sources as possible to best help the consumer.

Consensus opinion matters quite a bit with these mags in helping consumers arrive at what is likely to be a better decision, whether the journalists reach the same conclusion, or a significant number have a dissenting opinion. You will never be able to do a proper test drive of these cars off the dealership lot, so journalists for the top auto magazines who do this day in and day out (and are much better at driving than most in this forum and objectively comparing vs the avg person) and experience dozens/hundreds of cars have acquired some info/opinions that matter. When like nearly everyone in the world says the new 911 is sublime (mags, enthusiasts, racing drivers), you can pretty much bet that is going to be the same conclusion for the avg guy, and 95% of buyers will be very happy with the car as well. When about half of the same groups say that the new 5 series is not necessarily a better driving experience vs the old one, then a significant number of consumers will likely also have some reservations once they get to know the car.

With respect to the new BMWs, the conclusions across all the new models losing driving dynamics/feel and excitement (esp in the engine dept) are remarkably similar across at least 10-12 published tests whether it be from journalists (BOTH the US and europe) and racing drivers writing about the cars/videos and also the enthusiast forums with members who have driven/owned/tracked many BMWs. The newer models are also just losing a lot of the comparos vs the competition (across the respected Euro and US magazines, would say BMW is losing 40% of direct comparos). Take that with competitors like Cadillac using older BMW models as the development benchmark for their new cars (which in and of itself is extremely revealing!) all together is developing a consensus picture that BMW and its models are changing and not fully satisfying a core group of customers, namely those who have enjoyed the brand historically and those potentially looking for harder edged driving experience.

[Kayani_1]

I am not choosing to ignore anything. Bottom line is no matter how you cut it the new electric steering wheel is not on par with the previous generations hydraulic setup.

I think we have discussed that 100's of time so refer to any of my older posts of why they are not on par.

You like your F30 335i and I am happy for you. I on the other hand do not find it any significant improvement over the out going E9x models. For many reasons I have stated before to you. The sooner you get it the better it will be for your piece of mind.

Originally Posted by KevRyd

And the part about capabilities and heft? do you choose to ignore the most important parts?

I'm not offended as I have stated already, When presented with quantifiable information I have found this post to be very compelling.

I don't get paid to race or track cars, so the traps, and splits in hundredths of a second mean nothing to me. I have owned and driven some nice cars in my time and the F30m 335i is just one of them.

Kevin

[Kayani_1]

Fair enough friend you make a decent point. I think in your case it does not apply. However, you have to realize we have posters here that pretend their F30 is the best thing BMW ever created and fail to see the flaws that are quiet evident to people who do not own them.

Originally Posted by elistan

I'm not trying to say the N20 has less vibration than the N52 or is as smooth or whatever. I'm saying I LIKE the N20. You said "Anyone who can't tell the difference between the two in favor of E90 for better driving dynamics and fun to drive ratio is wearing a bit of purchase based bias blinders." That is wrong. I own an F30 because I like the F30 more than the E90. I don't like the F30 more than the E90 because I own an F30.

You're used to what you're used to, and you like what you like. I'm used to what I'm used to, and I like what I like. We're both equally valid to believe as we do. But to say that your preference is objective truth, and different preferences are the result of bias, is incorrect.

[Kayani_1]

+1

Now that you mention it is interesting how all the facts about F30 superiority and taunting of its lap times as proof of fact did go away as soon as you brought to their attention newly introduced back then all new 2007 335i 6-speed auto lap times. That 2007 E92 335i was a decent bit faster with its ancient 6-speed auto and no M sport pkg or 19" bigger performance tires/wheels.


As you said almost all the people that have tested the F30 vs E9x variants across the world have come to the same conclusion. That BMW made the F30 a bit larger and more softer. I was not sure before but I am very suspicious now that if this was not done on purpose by BMW. Basically it allows them to make 1 series and now the new up coming 2 series a more compelling purchase for those that are looking for a bit more raw performance and greater driving dynamics.

None the less no matter what even in the new M135i the electric steering took heat for being not great at feedback and feel. I hope BMW takes care of this issue with proper software upgrades and maybe even a redesign of the whole electric steering setup. So that it can be a bit more alive.

Well until all these bugs are worked out in the electric steering and overall BMW cars once again become a bit more hardcore. No more new BMW's for me. I will stick to what I have for now and look else where. I have always been a huge BMW fan but their direction is not what is exciting me any more. Last hope is the new M3/M4 or M2. However, my hopes are not too high with ever increasing price tags and soft core philosophy that has even plagued the new M5/M6.

It is a bit sad because just few years back their was so much hope and promise with the hard core car with great driving dynamics at great price in 1M. One was hoping that M5/M6 will take a page out of that book and go back to basics even with turbocharging. Alas, from introducing 1M BMW went to introducing one after another soft core machines that are either over weight or just fundamentally not as much fun to drive due to lack of less then thrilling driving dynamics.

I hope this slippery slope nightmare ends soon.

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Lots of mis-conceptions about quality of journalist testing and what it means for consumers. Credible mags like C&D actually test using several runs on the track and take the best time (remember reading this from them on one of the VIR compares from a few yrs ago) AND the fastest time isn't necessarily the filming lap. Also, in most comparos its not just one journalist doing the testing but a team that arrives at a consensus opinion (similar to the R&T article referenced).

And yes, there will be journalist driver error and such (they are not as good as race drivers), so it should be a given times aren't going to be the end-all be all, but when several people say "hey the facts speak for themselves" or "facts, not emotions" and cite the F30 time around VIR and then it is pointed out that an old 335i test around the same track that no one knew about actually "beat" (quotes intentional) the F30, it got real quiet about lap times and all the "fact talk". Bottom line is that the times within a few secs from each other don't really matter to begin with given driver variation, conditions, weather, etc, but happens to be convenient to bolster a particular argument. Which brings us to getting as much data and opinions from as many informed/expert sources as possible to best help the consumer.

Consensus opinion matters quite a bit with these mags in helping consumers arrive at what is likely to be a better decision, whether the journalists reach the same conclusion, or a significant number have a dissenting opinion. You will never be able to do a proper test drive of these cars off the dealership lot, so journalists for the top auto magazines who do this day in and day out (and are much better at driving than most in this forum and objectively comparing vs the avg person) and experience dozens/hundreds of cars have acquired some info/opinions that matter. When like nearly everyone in the world says the new 911 is sublime (mags, enthusiasts, racing drivers), you can pretty much bet that is going to be the same conclusion for the avg guy, and 95% of buyers will be very happy with the car as well. When about half of the same groups say that the new 5 series is not necessarily a better driving experience vs the old one, then a significant number of consumers will likely also have some reservations once they get to know the car.

With respect to the new BMWs, the conclusions across all the new models losing driving dynamics/feel and excitement (esp in the engine dept) are remarkably similar across at least 10-12 published tests whether it be from journalists (BOTH the US and europe) and racing drivers writing about the cars/videos and also the enthusiast forums with members who have driven/owned/tracked many BMWs. The newer models are also just losing a lot of the comparos vs the competition (across the respected Euro and US magazines, would say BMW is losing 40% of direct comparos). Take that with competitors like Cadillac using older BMW models as the development benchmark for their new cars (which in and of itself is extremely revealing!) all together is developing a consensus picture that BMW and its models are changing and not fully satisfying a core group of customers, namely those who have enjoyed the brand historically and those potentially looking for harder edged driving experience.

[64-bit]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I don't know if it was the particular car you were in, for example there is a rumor that '12s are noisier than '13s, but I can assure you there is not even a peep of ticking in my car at low speeds.

The only time a tick is heard is OUTSIDE the car or when in my garage upon cold start up. On cold start up, one of the reasons for it being loud is the exhaust flap is open. This is nothing specific to the N20, it's the sound of the injectors on a Direct injected 4.

So I had two bad loaners then
Both 4 bangers had the tic (diesel) sound while was stopped or idle, even after warm, but both were 2012 and NOT 2013, and that is why I got the 335 instead

[300hp]

Ahh what??

I was the first person to post about VIR times. I guess to avoid repetition we have now come up with another method of reviving life into this dying horse.

Lets put things into perspective, E92 beat the F30 which beat the 335is which beat the 135i. The 335is has more power and the 135i is lighter.

I don't see how anything changes once you put vIR into the mix, the F30 platform is still very competitive.

So we have tried steering and now that this has been beat to death lets try VIR. Lets beat that one to death too.

While we are at it lets try to rewrite history and say we posted the VIR times and everyone went silent since they are very insecure about those times. E90 FTW

[oceanview]

Originally Posted by 64-bit

So I had two bad loaners then
Both 4 bangers had the tic (diesel) sound while was stopped or idle, even after warm, but both were 2012 and NOT 2013, and that is why I got the 335 instead

The "diesel knocking" is a consequence of the Direct Injection System. You can also hear that a bit on the N55 Engine. But less.
If you compare an 6-inline without Direct Injection (like the M54) to any other (Turbo or regular) you realize that the M54 runs much smoother. Same on the 4-cylinder.

If one used to drive a BMW 6-cylinder, it's quite a big downgrade if you have to go with the N20 instead of the N55.
But compared to other 4-cylinder out in the market, the N20 for sure is a very good engine.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Lots of mis-conceptions about quality of journalist testing and what it means for consumers. Credible mags like C&D actually test using several runs on the track and take the best time (remember reading this from them on one of the VIR compares from a few yrs ago) AND the fastest time isn't necessarily the filming lap. Also, in most comparos its not just one journalist doing the testing but a team that arrives at a consensus opinion (similar to the R&T article referenced).

And yes, there will be journalist driver error and such (they are not as good as race drivers), so it should be a given times aren't going to be the end-all be all, but when several people say "hey the facts speak for themselves" or "facts, not emotions" and cite the F30 time around VIR and then it is pointed out that an old 335i test around the same track that no one knew about actually "beat" (quotes intentional) the F30, it got real quiet about lap times and all the "fact talk". Bottom line is that the times within a few secs from each other don't really matter to begin with given driver variation, conditions, weather, etc, but happens to be convenient to bolster a particular argument. Which brings us to getting as much data and opinions from as many informed/expert sources as possible to best help the consumer.

Consensus opinion matters quite a bit with these mags in helping consumers arrive at what is likely to be a better decision, whether the journalists reach the same conclusion, or a significant number have a dissenting opinion. You will never be able to do a proper test drive of these cars off the dealership lot, so journalists for the top auto magazines who do this day in and day out (and are much better at driving than most in this forum and objectively comparing vs the avg person) and experience dozens/hundreds of cars have acquired some info/opinions that matter. When like nearly everyone in the world says the new 911 is sublime (mags, enthusiasts, racing drivers), you can pretty much bet that is going to be the same conclusion for the avg guy, and 95% of buyers will be very happy with the car as well. When about half of the same groups say that the new 5 series is not necessarily a better driving experience vs the old one, then a significant number of consumers will likely also have some reservations once they get to know the car.

With respect to the new BMWs, the conclusions across all the new models losing driving dynamics/feel and excitement (esp in the engine dept) are remarkably similar across at least 10-12 published tests whether it be from journalists (BOTH the US and europe) and racing drivers writing about the cars/videos and also the enthusiast forums with members who have driven/owned/tracked many BMWs. The newer models are also just losing a lot of the comparos vs the competition (across the respected Euro and US magazines, would say BMW is losing 40% of direct comparos). Take that with competitors like Cadillac using older BMW models as the development benchmark for their new cars (which in and of itself is extremely revealing!) all together is developing a consensus picture that BMW and its models are changing and not fully satisfying a core group of customers, namely those who have enjoyed the brand historically and those potentially looking for harder edged driving experience.

I found it interesting that you said consumers base their decisions on these reviews. Care to explain the sales growth of the F30 platform despite the multiple bad reviews? You are trying really hard aren't you? Just look at the novel you just wrote

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

+1

Now that you mention it is interesting how all the facts about F30 superiority and taunting of its lap times as proof of fact did go away as soon as I brought to their attention newly introduced back then all new 2007 335i 6-speed auto lap times.

YOU didn't, the person you are quoting brought it up in post 236, and I replied it was valid and brings into all the questions about variables that negates a whole bunch of this mirco-analyzing in the first place. Don't take credit for other people's thoughts lol.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by 64-bit

So I had two bad loaners then
Both 4 bangers had the tic (diesel) sound while was stopped or idle, even after warm, but both were 2012 and NOT 2013, and that is why I got the 335 instead

Stopped at idle is not the same as driving at low speed like the other poster is claiming. My particular car(a '13, and every '12 I drove had more wind noise and was louder in the cabin-otherS said the same about '12 vs '13), I have had to check if the ASS was on because myself and passengers felt like the car was not running. But, I am sure some people and some cars may hear SOMETHING at idle. But stating you hear something while driving, that is another complaint all together.

[64-bit]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Stopped at idle is not the same as driving at low speed like the other poster is claiming. My particular car(a '13, and every '12 I drove had more wind noise and was louder in the cabin-otherS said the same about '12 vs '13), I have had to check if the ASS was on because myself and passengers felt like the car was not running. But, I am sure some people and some cars may hear SOMETHING at idle. But stating you hear something while driving, that is another complaint all together.

The ASS on the 335i RWD, May/13 production is also almost unnoticeable, and my steering wheel in Eco mode feels as heavy as in sport mode, totally different from the 2012 models that I have drove in the past.

BMW is listening... and they are fixing the bugs, my next brand new BMW will only be after the face-lift, only then the car will have all the new features and gadgets that you could possible get without the bugs.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by 64-bit

The ASS on the 335i RWD, May/13 production is also almost unnoticeable, and my steering wheel in Eco mode feels as heavy as in sport mode, totally different from the 2012 models that I have drove in the past.

BMW is listening... and they are fixing the bugs, my next brand new BMW will only be after the face-lift, only then the car will have all the new features and gadgets that you could possible get without the bugs.

ASS on the N20 is quite bad, I had it turned off BEFORE delivery. BUT, it is MUCH better when used in conjunction with a manual trans, far more control of when it happens if you don't want it to happen.

I spoke to people who had early E90s or early E46s, and there were things they did not like such as steering too light, or said to have explosive pothole reacting suspensions. They said, later on BMW fixed them, made them better.

Now BMW has over compensated, they went a bit soft. But BMW will fix it. Only difference is, we have rose colored glasses it seems about the older cars while shitting on the new one. But either way, they did not start out RIGHT. But this time, BMW feels it will alienate less people erring on the side of soft.

[FogCityM3]

In the end, reading a "novel" may take less time to read than 100 short "stories" Speaking of quality vs quantity, I talked about how the softer side of BMW is consciously changing the vehicles to appeal over a broader audience a few posts ago. The new cars are still great, but for the performance oriented guys (who tend to read the magazines), a few things have been lost over the past few generations and the trend across numerous models is continuing and troubling. What is the right balance to strike in terms of retaining core performance values while expanding mkt share to placate investors? Just for arguments sake, if BMWs keep losing comparos for 5-10 more yrs, will it impair overall brand perception even with non-enthusiast drivers?

I think Porsche has done best job at striking this balance by investing relentlessly in the 911 (core) for 50 yrs (which is basically a perfect car today) and releasing new platforms that are the top of the class in almost every comparo--and porsche also enjoys the highest margins in the industry. Across numerous industries, companies that abandon the very core values that got them there tend not to do well over time. I'm hoping BMW produce more cars like the 1's/2s and Ms to buck what seems to be a troubling trend.

Originally Posted by 300hp

I found it interesting that you said consumers base their decisions on these reviews. Care to explain the sales growth of the F30 platform despite the multiple bad reviews? You are trying really hard aren't you? Just look at the novel you just wrote

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Now BMW has over compensated, they went a bit soft. But BMW will fix it. Only difference is, we have rose colored glasses it seems about the older cars while shitting on the new one. But either way, they did not start out RIGHT. But this time, BMW feels it will alienate less people erring on the side of soft.

My thing is the E90/2 still needs to prove itself over the E30 before we can claim it was the best 3 series ever, or relevant in 2013. How does it compare to the E46? If someone wants to buy a used 3 series, which one is it?

I have respect for the guy who looked at the F30, thought it was crap and sold his E90/2 and got a DD and an E30 M3. That's sticking to your principles right there.

Let time take care of the F30 and in 7 years time we can have a descent conversation about F30 vs E90, when both are firmly in the history books

[elistan]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Fair enough friend you make a decent point. I think in your case it does not apply. However, you have to realize we have posters here that pretend their F30 is the best thing BMW ever created and fail to see the flaws that are quiet evident to people who do not own them.

I do realize that. Do you realize the other aspect of that coin, however? That we have posters here that pretend the F30 is the worst thing BMW ever created and fail to see the virtues that are quite evident to the people who own them?