[Kayani_1]

Elistan, when I was talking of customers I was talkking of majority not minority like yourself. I hope no offense as it was not meant as personal attack. Just take a quick glance at how many previous Lexus IS/MB/Audi owners that have moved to F30 just replied in threads like this.

I now also understand that you drove an E90 and found F30 more to your liking based on driving excitement. It is a bit puzzling. I am not so sure what E90 version did you compare against what F30 version during your purchase decision. So I am not qualified to speak on that.

However, when I compare a F30 328i against LCI E90 328i. They both are base models so apples to apples. It does not make sense to compare a fully M sport version of F30 with a base version of the E90 to me. As that is not fair.

In which case E9x is hands down more fun to drive. To compare M sport of one vs M -sport of another would be more fair. Did you drive M sport LCI E90 vs F30 M sport in your test drive session. If you did I doubt you would feel the same. I say that for various reasons below.

One, I am not the only one who says that E90 felt better in fun to drive factor and that F30 in comparison is more soft core of the two. The majority that have owned both find the F30 more soft core and that all major publications/journalist whose job is to compare these cars for a living say the exact same thing now. Is their no validity in that either.

Since you are new to the platform you might not know this that all the successive newer generation BMW cars are being criticized for what they were best at. This has been happening now for steady 2-3 years. Only exception being 1M and 335is which were both based on previous generation cars.

The new BMW F30 335i M-sport loses to the new Lexus IS 350 F-sport. Why you ask........take a guess......because they find the BMW faster yet less engaging and fun to drive. All thanks to a steering feel and feedback that is inferior and the suspension tuning that leaves bit to be desired. So a faster car with poor driving dynamics loses to a slower car with greater driving dynamics. In the past it was the other way around. A BMW losing to Lexus in driving dynamics was unheard of. So that driving excitement that drew you to F30 over E90 is absent here. When a Lexus imitates BMW so well that a Lexus feels more BMW then BMW itself. Then I think it is a shameful time for BMW .

By the way maybe BMW needs to take lessons from Lexus about electric steering setup and software. They have done a great job in Lexus LF-A and it shows in newer Lexus IS 350F.

Now, I know there will be many F30 supporters who will jump in a criticize that article and others similar to it that claim F30 to be inferior in driving dynamics. As is the case right now here in this thread of Road&Track finding the F30 lacking in fun to drive ratio compared to E90.

This is not exclusive to F30 though. The 5 series and 6 series both suffer from it. I have driven F10 550i M sport and 535i m sport and found both to suffer from same ailment compared to the previous generation E60 5 series with only sport pkg not even M-sport.

It is sort of funny that my feeling were pretty much later further verified in a major publication where an all new F10 5 series loses based on lack of fun to drive ratio and poor steering feel to same exact 5 cars which an E60 5 series just beat less then 6 months ago.


My purpose is not to hate on F30. Just hoping that BMW fixes these issues across the brand. I know there are more objective F30 owners who understand this and hope that BMW will stop this slippery slope and correct some of these flaws with F30 LCI version with updates.

I am hoping that one of these days I get behind a future F30 and find myself pleasantly surprised so that my faith in BMW is restored.

By the way tomorrow I head to a Lexus track event. I will get to compare the all new BMW vs MB vs Lexus on track at Sam Houston race park. Lets see how they compare.

Originally Posted by elistan

What kind of customer am I? An S2000 owning, sportbike owning, trackday and autocross and canyon carving enthusiast? Is that the kind of customer you're saying BMW is trying to attract with the F30?



You misunderstand why I prefer the F30 over the E90. I found the E90 dull and uninspiring. I found the F30 Sport Line more exciting to drive. Granted this was after only a brief test-drive in each, and comparing N20+8AT to N52+6AT was a dominant factor, but it is what it is. The E90 was the softer, less sporty of the two. My purchase was initiated by taking a job that required a ~90 mile round trip though stop-and-go traffic at times - my ideal purchase would have been a version of my S2000 with less wind noise, back seats, and a DCT. Fun-to-drive was an absolute must, which is why I didn't get an E90 after I test drove one and continued with the S2000 for several more months until the F30 came out.

Maybe the E90 I drove had a problem. Maybe your appreciation of the E90 blinds you from seeing the good qualities of the F30 simply because it's different from the E90. Did you drive an F30 with the 704 M Sport suspension option? Because if you only drove a base model I could understand where you're coming from. I had a base F30 as a loaner during my recent service and totally disliked the suspension. It's everything you accuse the F30 of being - soft, floaty, lots of body roll, slow to respond, doesn't take a set in corners... It also had the standard 8AT so shifts were slow, and it didn't have SPORT+ mode which allows for greater slip angles and wheel spin before the nannies kick in. All in all a disappointing drive. I liked it less than the E90 I drove.

For what it's worth, I did also test-drive an E90 335i the same day I drove the F30, and the extra power was readily apparent. That doesn't translate to "dynamically superior" in my mind however. With your current drive being a tuned car, maybe you're focusing too much on acceleration to notice the enjoyable handling of the F30 (as long as it has, as I say in the above paragraph, the 704 M Sport suspension.)

[elistan]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Elistan, when I was talking of customers I was talkking of majority not minority like yourself. I hope no offense as it was not meant as personal attack. Just take a quick glance at how many previous Lexus IS/MB/Audi owners that have moved to F30 just replied in threads like this.

My apologies for misunderstanding you. When you said "customers like yourself..." followed by "they prefer its soft core Lexus like imitation nature" I thought you were implying I too prefer soft core Lexus like nature.

I now also understand that you drove an E90 and found F30 more to your liking based on driving excitement. It is a bit puzzling. I am not so sure what E90 version did you compare against what F30 version during your purchase decision. So I am not qualified to speak on that.

However, when I compare a F30 328i against LCI E90 328i. They both are base models so apples to apples. It does not make sense to compare a fully M sport version of F30 with a base version of the E90 to me. As that is not fair.

I too have driven a base-model F30 (as a loaner recently.) And I too feel, as you do, that it's soft, squishy, floaty, and not at all sporty.

In which case E9x is hands down more fun to drive. To compare M sport of one vs M -sport of another would be more fair. Did you drive M sport LCI E90 vs F30 M sport in your test drive session. If you did I doubt you would feel the same. I say that for various reasons below.

I believe I test drove, in sequence:
1) 2011 CPO E90 328i 6AT, not an M Sport
2) 2011 CPO E90 335i M Sport 6AT (about a year after #1)
3) 2012 new F30 328i Sport Line 8AT (same day as #2)

I appreciated the extra power of the 335i, but did not feel it handled any better. I found the power of the N20 to be enough, and I preferred the 8AT, the interior design, and the newness of the car. So I ordered a 2013 F30 328i. Jet Black, Sport Line, Sport Auto, HIDs, Coral Red leather. That's it.

One, I am not the only one who says that E90 felt better in fun to drive factor and that F30 in comparison is more soft core of the two. The majority that have owned both find the F30 more soft core and that all major publications/journalist whose job is to compare these cars for a living say the exact same thing now. Is their no validity in that either.

For what it's worth, we also have journalists saying things like this when they drive an F30 335i for a hot lap around VIR:

This is one of the most natural feeling, athletic sedans on the market and really at this event, I mean you get into it and it feels small and light and agile and everything that a BMW is supposed to be. Although BMW may build electric cars and do goofy GPS systems and madden us with annoying controls, as long as they build a 3 series that is this good and this comfortable on a track we'll forgive them for everything else.
-- Aaron Robinson, Executive Editor, C&D

Since you are new to the platform you might not know this that all the successive newer generation BMW cars are being criticized for what they were best at. This has been happening now for steady 2-3 years. Only exception being 1M and 335is which were both based on previous generation cars.

Same thing happened when Honda introduced the AP2 S2000 in 2003. Lower redline, slower steering ratio, softer suspension, shorter gearing, definitely more torque, likely more hp. Flames raged for several years about that, and little fires still pop up now and then - but for the most part it's settled down and everybody appreciates all other S2000s regardless of what they personally own.

The new BMW F30 335i M-sport loses to the new Lexus IS 350 F-sport. Why you ask........take a guess......because they find the BMW faster yet less engaging and fun to drive. All thanks to a steering feel and feedback that is inferior and the suspension tuning that leaves bit to be desired.

I have no issue with the suspension tuning. I haven't tracked or autocrossed the car, but I have taken it one spirited canyon drives and honed it up a bit in the city, and except for a tendancy to understeer at the limit of steady-state cornering (something I wasn't able to test with the E90s I test drove) I find the suspension quite sporty. For comparison, my S2000 in the same situation is quite neutral, and it's very easy to tweak the car's attitude by using throttle inputs.

As for steering feel - that's all? Reduced steering wheel feedback? Bah, you can keep that, IMO. Maybe because I've been driving an EPS car for over 13.5 years, but I get plenty of feedback to tell me what I need to know, even if it is reduced in volume.

So a faster car with poor driving dynamics loses to a slower car with greater driving dynamics.

I have not driven the new IS-350. I very well may find it has a sportier suspension setup than my F30 Sport Line. Kudos to Toyota if so. I suspect it has more to do with something Toyota did than anything BMW did, or didn't. I'm not sure we'll ever see it, but I'd be interested in reading a head-to-head test of the new IS-350 against an E90 M Sport. If the IS-350 wins that too, what then?

For what it's worth, back in 2011 I also test-drove an IS-250 and IS-350 and wasn't inspired by either of those, as well. Same for A4, Subaru Legacy, Acura TL and TSX... A Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart was the only other sedan I drove that had a fun suspension setup. (Well, the VW GTI was fun too except for the tragic FWD thing.) I never did drive a G sedan, I disliked the looks that much.

(OT - I did happen by coincidence to drive several Porsches around that time as part of the Porsche World Roadshow. 911 S, Cayman R, Boxster Spyder. Wow, what fun. But out of our budget and lacking the rear seat room we were looking for.)

My purpose is not to hate on F30. Just hoping that BMW fixes these issues across the brand. I know there are more objective F30 owners who understand this and hope that BMW will stop this slippery slope and correct some of these flaws with F30 LCI version with updates.

For what it's worth, BMW does offer the factory option of adaptive suspension. I did not drive such a car, but reports here indicate that when in SPORT mode it's even sportier than the passive suspension. BMW also offers as an aftermarket kit the M Performance suspension which I think includes new shocks and lower, stiffer springs. I don't get the feeling that BMW is abandoning the sporty side of the 3 series.

By the way tomorrow I head to a Lexus track event. I will get to compare the all new BMW vs MB vs Lexus on track at Sam Houston race park. Lets see how they compare.

Indeed, please report back. Just make sure you note, however, the config of the BMW. If it's a base xDrive, for example, you will of course come away disappointed. As I would be too.

[Kayani_1]

No, need to apologize as you have not moved from a Lexus, Audi or MB platform as many have here. So that was my bad. However, F30 is more soft core and you do prefer it over E90. Now this is where we differ in opinions and no apologies for that .

As far as publications go. Lets address that once and for all MOST find the F30 more soft core in nature like myself and others who might have experience behind other BMW 3 series platforms. Specially when they compare it against the last generation E90.

Next, now E90 had the Lexus IS beat for many years as well as other makers. Not so the case with F30. So what happened. Now F30 folks just brush it off as no big deal. Because it is some thing that does not mesh well with their argument in favor for F30. So they do not like discussing it and brush if off. Let call it as it is and that is F30 has lost that edge that BMW always had with each consecutive generation.

Here at this point we both disagree again. Because I feel like you are not being just. Why because unlike you I do not believe it is what Lexus might have done right that is in the question But in fact it is what BMW did not do right making a move to EPS compared to Lexus.

The crown in this class is BMW's to lose and not Lexus. The Lexus has done enough homework with EPS in Lexus LF-A development for many years. On the other hand BMW tried to get rid of what they used to do good and substitute it with something else that they are not good at and it has turned into a disaster. All the newer generation cars including F30 are plagued with this disaster.

Now to you it makes no difference that the volume of feed back or feel is diminished as you are moving from one EPS setup to another. To me it matters a lot as well as many others. Because that is some thing BMW was good at. It made their cars more in tune to driver inputs and thus, made them far more fun to drive then the competitors. Also, I believe Honda EPS system benefit from light weight (ex:S2000) and lightweight mid-engine platforms (NSX) that make them more tolerable. I am pretty sure with your vast performance car experience we both agree on this fundamental concept. Now I find no such thing in favor of F30 and that is why it speaks volumes to me about its horrible demeanor in my time behind the wheel.

So you might casually brush that off much like those others guys I spoke of moving from other platforms. Because to you it does not matter so much or maybe because you have your sports machine on side and this is your practical family sedan. But to majority BMW enthusiast owners it does matter and that is some thing we would like to retain and not lose to crappy EPS setups.

Last but not least on your back to back test drive you did not drive apples to apples. A lighter 328i vs a heavier 335i is completely fair in your opinion. I do not find it so as one car carries far more weight hanging over it front tire contact patches compared to another. So with your vast experience behind performance vehicles. I am sure you will understand that pretty much.
Thus, off course the 335i will not feel any better then the lighter 328i in handling.

Now, I think that is exactly what you are describing in your experience to me. Where you find E90 335i to be faster and more power full yet not any better then the F30 328i.

I think at this point it is safe to say that we both hold different opinion on this. I do not find your comparison of E90 335i vs F30 328i apples to apples like mine. As I am comparing a base E90 328i vs base F30 328i. In which case even you admit that the E90 will feel better. Good thing is this where we both at least agree.


Once I return from the drive event I will update you with my experience. I am secretly pulling for BMW

It will be good for me as I will be able to compare F30 vs the new IS-F and MB for myself. Also, my own E92 335i will be there so I can get out of those and compare them to mine. One thing I am wanting compare is the 8-speed transmission offering of these competitors against one another and my 6-spd auto. Because this will be the last weekend with my 6-spd auto having factory software as this weekend I am looking forward to upgrading it to Alpina B3 transmission TCU upgrade. I wish there was a DCT 335is to compare also but oh well.


Ahhh.....yes one more thing. How do you find the EPS setup in your S2000 against the F30 328i. Also, how would you rank your EPS setup in your S2000 against those Porsche Boxster setups you drove.

Originally Posted by elistan

My apologies for misunderstanding you. When you said "customers like yourself..." followed by "they prefer its soft core Lexus like imitation nature" I thought you were implying I too prefer soft core Lexus like nature.



I too have driven a base-model F30 (as a loaner recently.) And I too feel, as you do, that it's soft, squishy, floaty, and not at all sporty.



I believe I test drove, in sequence:
1) 2011 CPO E90 328i 6AT, not an M Sport
2) 2011 CPO E90 335i M Sport 6AT (about a year after #1)
3) 2012 new F30 328i Sport Line 8AT (same day as #2)

I appreciated the extra power of the 335i, but did not feel it handled any better. I found the power of the N20 to be enough, and I preferred the 8AT, the interior design, and the newness of the car. So I ordered a 2013 F30 328i. Jet Black, Sport Line, Sport Auto, HIDs, Coral Red leather. That's it.



For what it's worth, we also have journalists saying things like this when they drive an F30 335i for a hot lap around VIR:

This is one of the most natural feeling, athletic sedans on the market and really at this event, I mean you get into it and it feels small and light and agile and everything that a BMW is supposed to be. Although BMW may build electric cars and do goofy GPS systems and madden us with annoying controls, as long as they build a 3 series that is this good and this comfortable on a track we'll forgive them for everything else.
-- Aaron Robinson, Executive Editor, C&D




Same thing happened when Honda introduced the AP2 S2000 in 2003. Lower redline, slower steering ratio, softer suspension, shorter gearing, definitely more torque, likely more hp. Flames raged for several years about that, and little fires still pop up now and then - but for the most part it's settled down and everybody appreciates all other S2000s regardless of what they personally own.



I have no issue with the suspension tuning. I haven't tracked or autocrossed the car, but I have taken it one spirited canyon drives and honed it up a bit in the city, and except for a tendancy to understeer at the limit of steady-state cornering (something I wasn't able to test with the E90s I test drove) I find the suspension quite sporty. For comparison, my S2000 in the same situation is quite neutral, and it's very easy to tweak the car's attitude by using throttle inputs.

As for steering feel - that's all? Reduced steering wheel feedback? Bah, you can keep that, IMO. Maybe because I've been driving an EPS car for over 13.5 years, but I get plenty of feedback to tell me what I need to know, even if it is reduced in volume.



I have not driven the new IS-350. I very well may find it has a sportier suspension setup than my F30 Sport Line. Kudos to Toyota if so. I suspect it has more to do with something Toyota did than anything BMW did, or didn't. I'm not sure we'll ever see it, but I'd be interested in reading a head-to-head test of the new IS-350 against an E90 M Sport. If the IS-350 wins that too, what then?

For what it's worth, back in 2011 I also test-drove an IS-250 and IS-350 and wasn't inspired by either of those, as well. Same for A4, Subaru Legacy, Acura TL and TSX... A Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart was the only other sedan I drove that had a fun suspension setup. (Well, the VW GTI was fun too except for the tragic FWD thing.) I never did drive a G sedan, I disliked the looks that much.

(OT - I did happen by coincidence to drive several Porsches around that time as part of the Porsche World Roadshow. 911 S, Cayman R, Boxster Spyder. Wow, what fun. But out of our budget and lacking the rear seat room we were looking for.)



For what it's worth, BMW does offer the factory option of adaptive suspension. I did not drive such a car, but reports here indicate that when in SPORT mode it's even sportier than the passive suspension. BMW also offers as an aftermarket kit the M Performance suspension which I think includes new shocks and lower, stiffer springs. I don't get the feeling that BMW is abandoning the sporty side of the 3 series.



Indeed, please report back. Just make sure you note, however, the config of the BMW. If it's a base xDrive, for example, you will of course come away disappointed. As I would be too.

[oceanview]

Sorry for cutting out some of the Quote below.

I think it's just to simple to blame it to the electonic steering setup.
The F30 335i originaly comes with 225/50 17" wheels and goes up to 225/35 / 255/30 20"
So from on site to the other you have a complete different steering behavior, depending on tire and wheel size, tire manufacturer and tire profile, choosing run-flat or non run-flat tires and tire pressure. Also the wheel weight can have an influence (rotating inertia).

My experience/feeling (with the 20" wheels) on the F30 335i steering is not bad at all. The RFT just have an understeering I don't like so much.

Drivers (like you & me) who's asking for a direct steering Feedback, should in consequence look at the factors above FIRST, instead of complainig about a bad steering Feedback.

I can't understand those guys that come up with comments like "I had this rental new F30 and the steering was so soft....."
Well sure, because the Rentals have a cheap setup!

Take any of your car and try it once with the smallest possible and once with the largest possible wheel setup. You will see how complete different the steering feedback is, also there.

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

The things I dislike about the E9x to this day is the weight gain. I have been and always will be vocal about BMW cars becoming heavy over time and E9x was no exception. However, thank god it did not lose that BMW steering feel and feed back and it was not diluted to a point where it was hard to tell if you were driving a BMW or Lexus.

There are few positives of F30 and one of them is not gaining huge amount of weight. However, the F30 is not a light weight compared to the E9x. The lack of huge weight gain is negated and not taken full advantage of by dumping a crummy electric steering setup devoid of feel and feedback and the overall car is tuned to feel very soft core. It is a shame when an all new Lexus IS350 F-sport is ranked higher on steering feel and feedback then a BMW 335i M-sport. This never happened to any 3 series up until now. Most publications all agree as well as owners who have driven both E90 vs F30 that F30 is more soft core and the steering feel leaves a lot to be desired.

I am hoping that BMW fixes this garbage electric steering as soon as possible and stop making cars more soft core and heavy. Go back to making them with an approach of Sports first and luxury second and reduce the weight with each successive generation. Instead of adding a bogus electric steering wheel reduce the weight by use of carbon fiber or aluminum.

[rallybull]

By the way, this was one of the first articles when motor trend compared the f30 328i to its other competitors and these were few of the comments:

We spent all of three minutes declaring the BMW best in test and best in class. This is not just a win for the 328i; it's a massacre. A slaughter. Doomsday. Armageddon. I say this with a straight face: There is no competition. Not only was the BMW's first-place finish never in question, but I can't remember a comparison test with such lopsided results. Honestly, we had a hard time finding bad things to say.

"Does everything well. The epitome of a luxury sport sedan."

What a car. There really isn't anything this car does wrong.

Last week I was telling a buddy (and huge BMW fan) that there isn't a single new BMW I'd even consider buying these days. I was wrong. I'd buy this car.

BMW wants to make my life difficult with a shocking product that is as good as it's been hyped.

BMW does what it does best with this new 328, and thus the bar is raised yet again.

The 328i rode the best, had the best steering and transmission

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz2Yx8gnU3i


Funny thing is how could so many auto journalists be wrong at the same time....

[imyopusha]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

^Also to the guy above.

Do I believe that only people who prefer driving the F30 over the E90 is because they are trying to justify their purchase?

Then the answer is NO.

However, I also know that BMW philosophy has changed to attract customers like yourself to the BMW brand. There are many folks out there who own the F30 as well as newer generation BMWs. Because they prefer its soft core Lexus like imitation nature.

The BMW used to be a perfect balance between sports and luxury in fact a bit more tilted towards sports then luxury. Now it is the other way around more tilted towards luxury then sports.

Is BMW successful in attracting newer sales via its softer core newer generations. Then the answer is YES. Is it alienating some of its core brand enthusiast then the answer is also YES.

It is why you see plenty of high soaring sales of BMW and the F30. As it appeals more to these ex. Lexus owners as well as Audi and MB owners. Not to mention all dash strokers and tech geeks who want to drive an iphone on 4 wheels.


This is why I have come across a high number of owners who are new to BMW brand like yourself and find the F30 better on these forums lately.

Now majority of those who have owned BMW's for a long time and have driven the new F30 and the newer generation BMW's. Do not find it more engaging or a great improvement in driving dynamics over the previous versions.

This is feeling is not just their attempt to hold on to make their cars seem better then what they are. Because it is not the case as it actually justified when it is even further verified by most major publications who have tested both versions. So most publications and the past owners of the BMW cars that have driven both side by side with far more experience behind BMW platform offerings agree on one thing. The newer cars are soft core and not dynamically more fun and engaging then the previous version.

Now you want to ignore all of this which us previous owners are trying to explain to you as well as most major publications then that is your prerogative. As there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. Because you have already made up your mind.

New customers like yourself are who BMW brand was after and you guys are here. So they were successful. No offense, now BMW forums are full of dash strokers, that love iphone on 4 wheels. Their hand hurts because the older steering is too heavy for them and their wives. The feed back coming through the steering is ewww unnecessary vibrations that ruin their texting ability. The suspension stiffness makes their back hurt etc..etc...etc.

I do not want a computer on 4 wheels and I do not care for Lexus like soft core luxury or want to be an Audi dash stroker or neither desire Benz heavy weight vault like cars that make me feel safe riding in them.

I want back to basic BMW's that were a great mix of Sports first and luxury second. Not the other way around. I want cars like 1M, E9x M3, E46 M3, E39M5, E60 M5, E92/93 335is, Z4 M coupe/roadsters. I am tired of these newer bloated, iphone on 4 wheels that lack true driving dynamics and fun factor and feel very much artificial and synthetic.

Now if you can't understand this then I believe we are done here. Because you will never understand where me and others previous BMW owners who are disappointed coming from or why we feel BMW needs to stop diluting their cars to bring in new customers.


The problem with some of you F30 owners is that you think we are saying your "F30 SUCKS". However, that is not the case. An F30 is still a nice car much like MB, Audi, Jag, and Lexus offerings. But F30 is further away from what drew us to the BMW brands sports first and luxury second nature.

The F30's inherit nature that draws you to it alienates F30 for us. Me and others like myself crave that superior driving dynamics and fun factor that was hard to find in any other sports luxury brand. Because no one did Sport luxury quite like BMW. Yes sir, No MB, Audi, Jag, Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac and Acura ever felt as good as BMW.

Now the experience is diluted and not as pure. One has to look under the microscope to find the differences. In its pursuit to attract buyers like yourself BMW is trying to be what it is not and has lost its identity and what made it so special.


Thus, bottom line is no surprise that folks like you that are new to the brand find F30 good compared to E9x. Because that is what BMW was hoping for and they got it. On the other hand folks like myself and other who have been faithful to the brand for many years do not find F30 more engaging or dynamically more superior.


I wish you the best and go enjoy your F30 and I will enjoy my Cobb tuned E92 N54 335i. All I say is do not pull up in your F30 N55 335i or N20 328i next to me out in real world. Because I will make a point of showing you which is dynamically superior....lol


PS BMW: Your attempt to attract these new customers is a good business move. However, do not ignore the loyalist who stuck by your brand for decades due to class leading driving dynamics and fun to drive nature. These folks have a history of jumping from one manufacturer platform to another in hopes of trying to find the latest and greatest iphone on wheels. To BMW do not lose your identity that brought you all the success.

Are you high? You are just making ridiculous assumptions about me all together. Think about what you are saying. You are assuming that I want a soft steering wheel that my wife and I can effortlessly whip around. LOLLL. You are seriously laughable.

My last few cars are a Mustang GT (new 5.0), IS350, Subaru STi w/ a full track suspension & 370 AWHP and a Honda S2000. So, your assumptions about me being the "average" consumer who wants a "soft" or compliant ride is just absurd. If I was that wouldn't I have probably opted for a 320 or 328?

You keep referencing the new IS350 comparison. Did you miss the part where the F30 beat it in the skidpad by a decent margin? The only downfall about the F30 noticed more than once across the board is the "feel" and feedback. Most journalists who complained about the feel state the DHP corrects this problem and makes it comparable to the E90 in feel (my F30 has DHP, btw). Furthermore, there are so many reviews that state the F30 is incredible and an absolute joy to drive.

As Motor Trend said in their review of the F30, "there's no reason for the roundel faithful to fret... Benchmarks? Forget the last 335i."

[elistan]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

In which case even you admit that the E90 will feel better.

I do not recall stating this, and if I did I must have misspoke or made a typo or similar. Please let me know where you read this so that I might clarify my point. Thanks!

[Kayani_1]

I agree oceanview that the steering feel and feedback as wells as handling traits are affected by the tire/wheel setup to a great extent.

However, at the same time even the best EPS steering setups are not on par with the best Hydraulic steering setups in feel and feed back.

I think it only makes sense as you mentioned to try it with various setups before buying it. However, my comparison is coming from a base E90 factory setup Vs. a base F30 factory setup.

Originally Posted by oceanview

Sorry for cutting out some of the Quote below.

I think it's just to simple to blame it to the electonic steering setup.
The F30 335i originaly comes with 225/50 17" wheels and goes up to 225/35 / 255/30 20"
So from on site to the other you have a complete different steering behavior, depending on tire and wheel size, tire manufacturer and tire profile, choosing run-flat or non run-flat tires and tire pressure. Also the wheel weight can have an influence (rotating inertia).

My experience/feeling (with the 20" wheels) on the F30 335i steering is not bad at all. The RFT just have an understeering I don't like so much.

Drivers (like you & me) who's asking for a direct steering Feedback, should in consequence look at the factors above FIRST, instead of complainig about a bad steering Feedback.

I can't understand those guys that come up with comments like "I had this rental new F30 and the steering was so soft....."
Well sure, because the Rentals have a cheap setup!

Take any of your car and try it once with the smallest possible and once with the largest possible wheel setup. You will see how complete different the steering feedback is, also there.

[Kayani_1]

Are you coming from a Lexus IS350 in your house hold or not?

If answer is Yes. Then you must have found Lexus IS more desire able then BMW 3 series earlier during your prior purchase decision. Unless you buy cars you do not desire.

So as a prior Lexus owners you are now moving over to BMW because you find the new F30 more to your liking.

So People who liked Lexus earlier like yourself is who BMW is catering now to. So relax it not a big deal if you like Lexus before and now have moved over to BMW.


As for your comment below:

"So, your assumptions about me being the "average" consumer who wants a "soft" or compliant ride is just absurd. If I was that wouldn't I have probably opted for a 320 or 328? "



Are you serious guy......

Come on now the 328i is actually lighter and has better handling and braking compared to a 335i given both are equipped similarly with tire/wheels/brake/suspension pkg. Only thing 335i has advantage on is acceleration.

I think you are getting a bit too full on your F30 335i by pretending that F30 328i are soft in comparison. I think with your vast performance car back ground of 375hp cars you would not be making such ignorant comments.

Also, you can deny it all you want but it is well known by now through majority of reviews that F30 has a bit more soft core nature in comparison to E90. If one has to equip a F30 a certain way to fix some of its issues then that is sad. Because a stock to stock comparison the E90 has more desiring steering feel/feedback. So compare apples to apples and E90 edges ahead.


For every review you can find me where they did not find F30 lacking in steering feel/feedback compared to E90. I can show you five where they did find it lacking in comparison. So read carefully MAJORITY do not find the new F30 more engaging when it comes to feel/feedback.

Originally Posted by imyopusha

Are you high? You are just making ridiculous assumptions about me all together. Think about what you are saying. You are assuming that I want a soft steering wheel that my wife and I can effortlessly whip around. LOLLL. You are seriously laughable.

My last few cars are a Mustang GT (new 5.0), IS350, Subaru STi w/ a full track suspension & 370 AWHP and a Honda S2000. So, your assumptions about me being the "average" consumer who wants a "soft" or compliant ride is just absurd. If I was that wouldn't I have probably opted for a 320 or 328?

You keep referencing the new IS350 comparison. Did you miss the part where the F30 beat it in the skidpad by a decent margin? The only downfall about the F30 noticed more than once across the board is the "feel" and feedback. Most journalists who complained about the feel state the DHP corrects this problem and makes it comparable to the E90 in feel (my F30 has DHP, btw). Furthermore, there are so many reviews that state the F30 is incredible and an absolute joy to drive.

As Motor Trend said in their review of the F30, "there's no reason for the roundel faithful to fret... Benchmarks? Forget the last 335i."

[Kayani_1]

I am sorry but my quote has to be read in context of what I wrote all the way. Not chop it off out of context.

As I am comparing a E90 328i vs F30 328i stock to stock. In which case even you admit that the E90 will feel better. Good thing is this is where we both at least agree.




Your response:

I too have driven a base-model F30 (as a loaner recently.) And I too feel, as you do, that it's soft, squishy, floaty, and not at all sporty.




I think it is pretty clear that we both agreed on F30 base model not being on par with E90. So it is you actually who said in your own words that you to feel as I do. I hope this clears it up for you.



My experience at Lexus drive autocross event.

I did get to drive the IS250, IS350 F-sport, GS F-sport, LS F-sport and F30 BMW 335i. I got to drive Lexus and BMW back to back on autocross.

The BMW F30 felt way too floaty, soft, and the steering feel was less then becoming of BMW brand during autocross. I drove it in sports mode of 8-speed & sport setting. The engine was the highlight of the experience the interior plastic used felt third class.

On the other hand IS350 F-sport in sport+ setting was a lot better in steering feel and handled pretty good. I felt more confident in it. I never thought the Lexus IS to be better then BMW 3 series in handling dept. The Lexus interior plastic felt higher quality then BMW. I did not like the paddle shifters as they felt too small. The gear lever looks out of place and old style they need to redesign it. I really liked the LF-A styled instrument cluster that was functional and cool.

Now despite the IS350 F-sport being NA V6 I did not find it as sharp in responses as the BMW NA inline-6's that I recall. As for power out of corners the 335i with its huge amount of torque had it flat out beat. So the engine in IS350 F-sport felt a let down compared to a 335i.

In defense of BMW 335i as usual at these events the competitor cars are not equipped with best performance setup. I am pretty sure the M-sport version would have better handling then the one I experienced in non-M-sport version.

Now coming back to E92 335i from these cars. I felt like a 7 years old BMW E92 platform is still excellent. The steering definitely is a bit on the heavier side and that is how I like it, yet it offers plenty of feedback and feel. It feels more natural. The suspension is setup a bit stiffer but not to the point where it is rock hard. For me it offers greater confidence as there is less delay in information coming through the wheels or its volume is magnified. Even the IS 350 F-sport sort of gave u info with a bit of lag as I will not even mention the horrendous stock F30 335i setup.

Anyways that was my experience now have to go find some one in my area with F30 335i M-sport with proper setup. So I can go see if it is as decent as you F30 guys make it out to be.

Originally Posted by elistan

I do not recall stating this, and if I did I must have misspoke or made a typo or similar. Please let me know where you read this so that I might clarify my point. Thanks!

[imyopusha]

I actually am coming from a 2013 Ford Mustang GT. I had it for about seven months. I sold my IS350 for that... until the wife got pregnant- again. But yes, I would still take a 2010 IS350 over the E90 all day long. Obviously, I'd take the F30 over both, as would 99% of car enthusiasts. By the way, I must have missed where the 335i was objectively beat in handling by the 328i. I did read a comparison which stated the 328i feels more balanced and the 335i was too powerful for its suspension, but I don't recall seeing any empirical evidence. I could be wrong. However, If you are arguing the 328i can outperform the 335i you are high. The 335i will beat the 328i all day every time.

BTW, I assure you my old STi would have beaten anything you've ever owned or probably ever will own on a track. It wasn't 375 HP, it was 375 AWHP. In HP terms (bhp) it was in the vicinity of 450.

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Are you coming from a Lexus IS350 in your house hold or not?

If answer is Yes. Then you must have found Lexus IS more desire able then BMW 3 series earlier during your prior purchase decision. Unless you buy cars you do not desire.

So as a prior Lexus owners you are now moving over to BMW because you find the new F30 more to your liking.

So People who liked Lexus earlier like yourself is who BMW is catering now to. So relax it not a big deal if you like Lexus before and now have moved over to BMW.


As for your comment below:

"So, your assumptions about me being the "average" consumer who wants a "soft" or compliant ride is just absurd. If I was that wouldn't I have probably opted for a 320 or 328? "



Are you serious guy......

Come on now the 328i is actually lighter and has better handling and braking compared to a 335i given both are equipped similarly with tire/wheels/brake/suspension pkg. Only thing 335i has advantage on is acceleration.

I think you are getting a bit too full on your F30 335i by pretending that F30 328i are soft in comparison. I think with your vast performance car back ground of 375hp cars you would not be make ignorant comments like that.

Also, you can deny it all you want but it is well known by now through majority of reviews that F30 has a bit more soft core nature in comparison to E90. If one has to equip a F30 a certain way to fix some of its issues then that is sad. Because a stock to stock comparison the E90 has more desiring steering feel/feedback. So compare apples to apples and E90 edges ahead.


For every review you can find me where they did not find F30 lacking in steering feel/feedback I can show you five where they did find it lacking. So read carefully MAJORITY do not find the new F30 more engaging when it comes to feel/feedback.

[Kayani_1]

I don't even know where to start with this classic reply.

You are coming from Mustang before which you owned Lexus IS350. So lets not pretend otherwise.


You would take a IS350 over a E9x 335i all day when it comes to performance and driving dynamics. LOL......I think that says it all.



So you need empirical evidence for 328i vs 335i to decide which one is better balanced if both cars have identical suspension/tire/wheel/steering setup. :


How about this one for you to ponder for empirical evidence.

If two cars are identical in all way except that one weighs more then the other and carries all this weight up front hanging over the front wheel. Then would you still need empirical evidence to decide which one would have better balance and handling?

LOL.....I can't wait for this answer.


I am so scared of your understanding of basic driving dynamics and your 450 whp Subaru......please have mercy on anything I have owned and will ever own.


I think at this point I would say I am done talking with you have a good day.

Originally Posted by imyopusha

I actually am coming from a 2013 Ford Mustang GT. I had it for about seven months. I sold my IS350 for that... until the wife got pregnant- again. But yes, I would still take a 2010 IS350 over the E90 all day long. Obviously, I'd take the F30 over both, as would 99% of car enthusiasts. By the way, I must have missed where the 335i was objectively beat in handling by the 328i. I did read a comparison which stated the 328i feels more balanced and the 335i was too powerful for its suspension, but I don't recall seeing any empirical evidence. I could be wrong. However, If you are arguing the 328i can outperform the 335i you are high. The 335i will beat the 328i all day every time.

BTW, I assure you my old STi would have beaten anything you've ever owned or probably ever will own on a track. It wasn't 375 HP, it was 375 AWHP. In HP terms (bhp) it was in the vicinity of 450.

[imyopusha]

Yes, I am coming from a 2013 Mustang GT, which was/is a fantastic car in about every conceivable way. I miss it very much.

I never stated that I purchased the IS350 over the E90 due to driving dynamics only. I couldn't live with the E90's cabin nor its looks. Would you be married to a girl who was just completely ugly in your eyes? If I was buying purely on driving dynamics, I would have chosen the Audi S4, which beat the 335i in about every possible criteria. Or, I would have chosen a Porsche Cayman, Camaro SS, etc. etc. if my car buying criteria was strictly that. I don't feel like writing a dissertation on why I chose the IS350 over the E90, but the bottom line is that I couldn't get over the E90's looks and interior, whereas my jaw dropped when I saw and drove the F30 for the first time.

You seem more of an E9X fanboy and F30 hater, rather than an auto enthusiast, judging by your statements and previous cars. The rims, or should I say, "rimz" you put on your 7-series deface such a gorgeous automobile. It's like wearing a Brooks Brothers suit with a clip on tie.

Can you go on the record saying the 328i would post a better Lightning Lap or 'ring time than the 335i so I can just call you plain stupid?

I guess I don't understand driving dynamics because my ride isn't sitting on chrome. LOLLLLLL

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

I don't even know where to start with this classic reply.

You are coming from Mustang before which you owned Lexus IS350. So lets not pretend otherwise.


You would take a IS350 over a E9x 335i all day when it comes to performance and driving dynamics. LOL......I think that says it all.



So you need empirical evidence for 328i vs 335i to decide which one is better balanced if both cars have identical suspension/tire/wheel/steering setup. :


How about this one for you to ponder for empirical evidence.

If two cars are identical in all way except that one weighs more then the other and carries all this weight up front hanging over the front wheel. Then would you still need empirical evidence to decide which one would have better balance and handling?

LOL.....I can't wait for this answer.


I am so scared of your understanding of basic driving dynamics and your 450 whp Subaru......please have mercy on anything I have owned and will ever own.


I think at this point I would say I am done talking with you have a good day.

[elistan]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

I am sorry but my quote has to be read in context of what I wrote all the way. Not chop it off out of context.

As I am comparing a E90 328i vs F30 328i stock to stock. In which case even you admit that the E90 will feel better. Good thing is this is where we both at least agree.




Your response:

I too have driven a base-model F30 (as a loaner recently.) And I too feel, as you do, that it's soft, squishy, floaty, and not at all sporty.




I think it is pretty clear that we both agreed on F30 base model not being on par with E90. So it is you actually who said in your own words that you to feel as I do. I hope this clears it up for you.

No need to apologize. I see the issue now - you said "stock" when I think you meant "base." My Sport Line is 100% stock and feels great, but it's not a base model, which feels very different.

The E90 I drove felt dull and lifeless, the base F30 xDrive I drove felt soft and floaty. Neither one was enjoyable, and if those were all BMW had to offer I still wouldn't be a BMW driver today.

Anyways that was my experience now have to go find some one in my area with F30 335i M-sport with proper setup. So I can go see if it is as decent as you F30 guys make it out to be.

If your only experiences with the F30 had been base suspension models, no wonder you feel as you do. If you had simply stated that at the beginning, I think we could have avoided much of this discussion. It started with your statement that people who prefer the driving dynamics of the F30 do so because of purchase based bias blinders. If instead you had stated that people who prefer the driving dynamics of a BASE F30, without M Sport or M Sport adaptive suspension, I don't think you'd get nearly the negative reaction you did.

[Kayani_1]

That is exactly my point you did not buy E90 for driving dynamics and instead bought the Lexus for looks and cabin. So why are you jumping up and down.......... as you fit the bill of a Lexus buyer who picked a lexus over BMW for reasons other then driving dynamics and now is back to BMW when it offers similar.

Is this the best reply you can come up with rather then answering the direct questions I asked you in previous post because with your vast performance machine knowledge you were unable to answer a simple question.

Oh and I am neither an E9x fan boy nor F30 hater. I like E9x for what it is and can appreciate the F30 for what it offers. At the same time what E9x offers in my opinion is closer to what I desire in driving dynamics then what F30 offers and this is where my disappointment lies.


Why would I go on record and say 328i would post faster lightning lap times compared to 335i. Is your brain working or not.

I think we are discussing better balanced car out of the two not which one can post higher times around VIR based on outright power advantage.

I think I am realizing that I am wasting my time with you.

Do me a favor if all you can do is talk about how your gazillion horsepower Subaru can destroy everything I have or ever will own and think you have accomplished something great by talking about my 7 series. If you can't answer simple questions or hold any sort of discussion.

Because, if that is the case run along discussion is over. As I should not have expected any better from you.

Originally Posted by imyopusha

Yes, I am coming from a 2013 Mustang GT, which was/is a fantastic car in about every conceivable way. I miss it very much.

I never stated that I purchased the IS350 over the E90 due to driving dynamics only. I couldn't live with the E90's cabin nor its looks. Would you be married to a girl who was just completely ugly in your eyes? If I was buying purely on driving dynamics, I would have chosen the Audi S4, which beat the 335i in about every possible criteria. Or, I would have chosen a Porsche Cayman, Camaro SS, etc. etc. if my car buying criteria was strictly that. I don't feel like writing a dissertation on why I chose the IS350 over the E90, but the bottom line is that I couldn't get over the E90's looks and interior, whereas my jaw dropped when I saw and drove the F30 for the first time.

You seem more of an E9X fanboy and F30 hater, rather than an auto enthusiast, judging by your statements and previous cars. The rims, or should I say, "rimz" you put on your 7-series deface such a gorgeous automobile. It's like wearing a Brooks Brothers suit with a clip on tie.

Can you go on the record saying the 328i would post a better Lightning Lap or 'ring time than the 335i so I can just call you plain stupid?

I guess I don't understand driving dynamics because my ride isn't sitting on chrome. LOLLLLLL

[Kayani_1]

Yes, I meant to say base/stock yet ended up just typing one. It was a source of confusion for you and I can understand now why you did not get what I was trying to say.

I found base/stock E90 328i with better steering feel and feed back then the base/stock F30 328i. It is a direct apples to apples comparison.

In the early discussion with one of the F30 328i M-sport owners. I think this same issue came up. He said this issues gets better as you move to sport line and then even more as you move up to M-Sport and even more once you do few after market things.

I think my response to that was Maybe so. But with each successive upgrades of similar fashion the E9x will also improve in similar fashion. Only difference is when you start out with a better base product then you will end up with a better end result.

If you put lipstick on a pig it is still a pig with lipstick. Not saying that F30 is a pig just using an example to explain since people are getting so touchy about every lil thing. So no pun intended.

Bottom line argument at the end of the day has been and still is EPS handicaps the F30 in driving dynamics by diminishing it feel and feedback. That is not the case with E9x.

So regardless of the fact that if you compare base vs base or higher sport pkg versions of each other or modified vs modified. The EPS will play its part in making the F30 less communicative compared to E90.


This has been a simple fact I have been arguing since the first post in this thread. As a result some times it can get heated due to frustrations on both parts and misunderstandings.


I will give a 335i M-sport a try. But if the recent articles in which Lexus IS350F sport beat the the 335i M-sport are any indications.

Then I am afraid because I will definitely come away disappointed.

Because that article described the Lexus EPS setup better then BMW's M-sports. Now I found out yesterday in my drive event that Lexus IS350 F-sport was a lot better then the base F30 335i yesterday.

However, upon returning to my car it was evident what I was missing in that so called Good EPS setup of Lexus IS350 F-sport. As it still lags behind the E9x 335i spt. Pkg 19's.

Originally Posted by elistan

No need to apologize. I see the issue now - you said "stock" when I think you meant "base." My Sport Line is 100% stock and feels great, but it's not a base model, which feels very different.

The E90 I drove felt dull and lifeless, the base F30 xDrive I drove felt soft and floaty. Neither one was enjoyable, and if those were all BMW had to offer I still wouldn't be a BMW driver today.



If your only experiences with the F30 had been base suspension models, no wonder you feel as you do. If you had simply stated that at the beginning, I think we could have avoided much of this discussion. It started with your statement that people who prefer the driving dynamics of the F30 do so because of purchase based bias blinders. If instead you had stated that people who prefer the driving dynamics of a BASE F30, without M Sport or M Sport adaptive suspension, I don't think you'd get nearly the negative reaction you did.

[imyopusha]

You completely missed the point of why I didn't buy the E90. I'll just chalk it up to emotional tunnel vision.

By the way, have you even driven an F30 with DHP? Just wondering.

You were arguing the 328i is more balanced. I was arguing that a 335i is more of an enthusiast's car than a 328i or 320i. I think that point went over your head.

Enjoy your 335 which has superior... uh, "feel"... at least, in your mind, it is superior in something.

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

That is exactly my point you did not buy E90 for driving dynamics and instead bought the Lexus for looks and cabin. So why are you jumping up and down.......... as you fit the bill of a Lexus buyer who picked a lexus over BMW for reasons other then driving dynamics and now is back to BMW when it offers similar.

Is this the best reply you can come up with rather then answering the direct questions I asked you in previous post because with your vast performance machine knowledge you were unable to answer a simple question.

Oh and I am neither an E9x fan boy nor F30 hater. I like E9x for what it is and can appreciate the F30 for what it offers. At the same time what E9x offers in my opinion is closer to what I desire in driving dynamics then what F30 offers and this is where my disappointment lies.


Why would I go on record and say 328i would post faster lightning lap times compared to 335i. Is your brain working or not.

I think we are discussing better balanced car out of the two not which one can post higher times around VIR based on outright power advantage.

I think I am realizing that I am wasting my time with you.

Do me a favor if all you can do is talk about how your gazillion horsepower Subaru can destroy everything I have or ever will own and think you have accomplished something great by talking about my 7 series. If you can't answer simple questions or hold any sort of discussion.

Because, if that is the case run along discussion is over. As I should not have expected any better from you.

[KevRyd]

Ignore Leilani, He/She's oblivous.

Kevin

Originally Posted by imyopusha

You completely missed the point of why I didn't buy the E90. I'll just chalk it up to emotional tunnel vision.

By the way, have you even driven an F30 with DHP? Just wondering.

You were arguing the 328i is more balanced. I was arguing that a 335i is more of an enthusiast's car than a 328i or 320i. I think that point went over your head.

Enjoy your 335 which has superior... uh, "feel"... at least, in your mind, it is superior in something.

[PKizzle]

Err.. I am with Kayani on this one. First time BMW owner coming in and trying to preach...incorrectly if I might add...to some of us who have been in the BMW family through several model generations.
Props to Kayani for keeping the discussion intelligent.

Fwiw, I had the chance to drive a loaded F30 328 for a couple of days, and I had it in sport mode most of the time. While the car does have it's strong points, the steering and suspension were nowhere as linear, immediate or full of feedback as my E92 335is.

Having said that, I still thought it was a great car, but felt closer to a 5 than the 3 series that we have gotten used to. But if BMW's intention is to cater to a wider audience then it seems to be working as my wife LOVED the F30 and now wants an F31.

[KevRyd]

sorry but the length of your habbit in no way is an indication of your intelligence.

Try driving it with DHP!

Linear, Immediate feel! BMW changing its values - All Hogwash!

Same stupid argument from the same people with the same stupid agenda. man does that crap get old. Do you have any apptitude for original thought.

Kevin

Originally Posted by PKizzle

Err.. I am with Kayani on this one. First time BMW owner coming in and trying to preach...incorrectly if I might add...to some of us who have been in the BMW family through several model generations.
Props to Kayani for keeping the discussion intelligent.

Fwiw, I had the chance to drive a loaded F30 328 for a couple of days, and I had it in sport mode most of the time. While the car does have it's strong points, the steering and suspension were nowhere as linear, immediate or full of feedback as my E92 335is.

Having said that, I still thought it was a great car, but felt closer to a 5 than the 3 series that we have gotten used to. But if BMW's intention is to cater to a wider audience then it seems to be working as my wife LOVED the F30 and now wants an F31.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

sorry but the length of your habbit in no way is an indication of your intelligence.

Try driving it with DHP!

Linear, Immediate feel! BMW changing its values - All Hogwash!

Same stupid argument from the same people with the same stupid agenda. man does that crap get old. Do you have any apptitude for original thought.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin for keeping the discussion intelligent and calling it like we all see it

[PKizzle]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

sorry but the length of your habbit in no way is an indication of your intelligence.

Try driving it with DHP
Kevin

Familiarity through model generations adds nothing to one's intelligence, but it certainly makes you more perceptive of a change from certain traits that you get accustomed to over the years. My DD has been a 3 series for the last 14 years and I constantly jump between my e36 and my 335is. While the e92 feels nowhere as raw as the e36, there is a certain directness in how the car communicates that is evident in both. I did not get this same feel from the F30. There was a bit of aloofness, which to me is a deviation from what has traditionally defined a BMW 3 series. How would you recognize this if you never knew what a 3 was supposed to be like by virtue of having owned one for any length of time?

As for dhp, I mentioned that I had the car in the 'sport' mode most of the time? Is dhp something else? If so, then I may have missed it and I apologize. While the sport button tightened things up considerably, it did not add much in the way of feedback. The tires and steering were still not 'talking' to me.

What agenda, like I said my wife loved the car and we may end up getting one for her. And I thought I said it was a great car, just not what I've been accustomed to from a 3 series. But that does mean you cannot discuss the merits and demerits of a model evolution on a BMW forum.