11-03-2018, 03:55 PM | #23 |
Private First Class
34
Rep 121
Posts
Drives: 2017 340i M-Sport
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: North Carolina
|
So he's like the guy at the bar preaching about the evils of alcohol then? He didn't give a pay to play lecture which for a modified intake would still be pretty humorus, he said "never ever mod a bmw"
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-04-2018, 08:47 PM | #24 |
Colonel
1508
Rep 2,055
Posts |
Do you by any chance have Geico with their Mechanical Breakdown coverage? It is added by default if you bought a car and had the dealer set up insurance. If you do, they would cover this with a 250 deductible.
Also, did BMW void your warranty because a rep came out and saw your intake or did the dealer screw you over? |
Appreciate
0
|
11-04-2018, 09:15 PM | #25 | |
Banned
1410
Rep 3,211
Posts |
Quote:
but I tell ya I never liked the BMS intake it sucks in a mix of insulated engine air right from the vicinity of the turbo (hottest side of the engine) which to me is stupid running lean without tuning .. with hot intake air then add in lower octane gas yer asking for detonation |
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-04-2018, 09:20 PM | #26 | |
Enlisted Member
18
Rep 43
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
2015 Mineral Grey M4 - Stock
2017 Glacier Silver 440i Gran Coupe - Always broken 2016 Mineral Grey 320i - RIP ig: @jaxondanel |
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-05-2018, 06:54 AM | #27 | |
Cheapskate
4521
Rep 5,003
Posts |
Quote:
"On a stock engine this is suicide." .... Please stop drinking the dealership kool-aid. A lot of the companies that make aftermarket components are also OEM suppliers. It's ridiculous to think that a filter from a reputable company will blow your engine. The fact that you still think it lets larger debris through, much less debris large enough to damage your engine, shows how little you know. Meanwhile the factory engine configuration is shoveling oil vapor into the intake tract to be burned off. But it's just another part of the expensive OEM design, so it must be fine. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-05-2018, 10:27 AM | #28 |
Lieutenant General
6346
Rep 10,614
Posts |
@jaxon20i, I hope the dialog with the dealer and BMW NA progresses and some satisfactory resolution will be found. There is of course another school of thought: BMW's renewed focus on paying close attention to any modification.
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-05-2018, 11:44 AM | #29 |
Colonel
2378
Rep 2,958
Posts |
Why not take the car to a reputable indy shop - and use your MBI via Geico - I have had to use the coverage a couple times on my cars and it has always been flawless.
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-06-2018, 05:01 PM | #30 | ||
Lieutenant General
3790
Rep 10,545
Posts |
Quote:
Dealers want to get paid for warranty work so they don't have an incentive to deny work. Also, they could be under the microscope for performing questionable warranty repairs.
__________________
"Drive more, worry less. "
435i, MPPK, MPE, M-Sport Line |
||
Appreciate
0
|
11-06-2018, 11:58 PM | #31 |
2JZ-GTE
3137
Rep 4,103
Posts |
I'm back to preach on.
Does the b58 run lean with just air filter ? Did the valves burn or whatever from being lean? Or did debris get in there? |
Appreciate
0
|
11-07-2018, 04:20 AM | #32 | |
Brigadier General
1977
Rep 3,987
Posts |
Quote:
Technical You are perfectly right that the OEM components are not the only ones suitable and sometimes not even the optimal ones to use. But without the knowledge about the technical requirements AND the actual performance of aftermarket parts - it is purely a guessing game. Sometimes the risk is negligible, sometimes not. And please - do not trust brand names and glossy selling brochures in isolation. Take it from an engineer that has seen a lot of contrast between great marketing and actual performance... even from well-established brands. Legal/Warranty Although there may be some variations in the laws around the globe, the general rule remains that manufacturers can and would only guarantee for products they have: 1. selected themselves based on a number of factors, of course including tachnical, 2. quality assurance oversight of the suppliers to ensure repeatability, configuration control, material selection and manufacturing techniques remain acceptable. Once you decide to take over that role and start modifying outside the scope of what is formally defined as acceptable - you are on your own with the responsibility all in your pocket and you cannot go crying on the OEM's shoulder to help you. And that is clearly visible in this case as well. So everyone needs to decide what risk each mod is worth. A fancy air-filter on stock engine, which in reality brings 0 performance gain is IMO definitely not worth all the trouble in this case, irrespective of the end-result. Others may think differently, that's allright. And I am not saying it caused the defect, but it definitely caused the defect not (yet) being repaired under warranty.
__________________
"Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in cars and women."
|
|
Appreciate
2
BLACK HAWK DOWN105.00 eluded3137.00 |
11-07-2018, 07:32 AM | #33 | |
Cheapskate
4521
Rep 5,003
Posts |
Quote:
Just as I commented previously, the wording is often misconstrued legally speaking. They cannot deny claims for using OEM equivalent parts. It is illegal for any OEM to force you to pay their prices for replacement parts because, believe it or not, even the legal system believes that it is price gouging. They charge more because they can, not because it's better. Many aftermarket suppliers provide equivalent replacements for 1/2 the cost of OEM or better. Even the OES provides parts to the OEM that are simply repackaged and sold with a markup. All that to say - price has nothing to do with it when determining quality. HOWEVER, anyone that understands how an engine works understands that the filter did not cause the issue itself. The reason majority of these bolt ons do anything for performance is because they improve engine efficiency. What most people do, i.e. driving around 50k+ miles with clogged oem filters, is way more dangerous when it chokes your engine's supply for air. A damaged filter, sure. Improper installation, ok. But you can't just look at a filter and say it caused an issue that blew your engine because it's an aftermarket cone. It's a cop out on their part. That's it. And to say things like adding an intake is suicide is just ridiculous. You don't needs books of data to understand that. It's common sense. One of the most frustrating things is being an enthusiast and going into work every day hearing things like that. There is an obvious issue going on, but instead of someone actually trying to find the root cause of the issue, they deny the claim based on fine print or semantics and move on. That's one of the many reasons I'm glad I got out of the industry.
__________________
Last edited by kern417; 11-07-2018 at 07:52 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
1
f32ftw98.00 |
11-07-2018, 08:16 AM | #34 | |||||||
Brigadier General
1977
Rep 3,987
Posts |
Fair enough. Let's now discuss the definition of "OEM equivalent"?
I can easily find 10 reasons why a certain part is not "OEM equivalent", if I want to! A Brochure is not enough for an end-user to claim that. Give me independent lab test reports, give me quality assurance, give me configuration control. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As a minimum, a fair approach would be that if the system is modified in ANY way, the end-user has to carry the entire cost of an (independent) investigation whether the mod has caused or contributed to the failure, irrespective of whether the warranty will be respected or not. Then I feel all parties are fairly treated. And no - I don't work for BMW or any other car manufacturer. And I also like mods and have mods (although less on the engine-side). But I feel people often go too far with silly mods, just because they trust fully what the manufacturer is eager to sell them.
__________________
"Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in cars and women."
Last edited by Skyhigh; 11-07-2018 at 08:28 AM.. |
|||||||
Appreciate
0
|
11-07-2018, 06:40 PM | #35 | |
Private First Class
34
Rep 121
Posts
Drives: 2017 340i M-Sport
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: North Carolina
|
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-07-2018, 06:42 PM | #36 | |
That Libertarian Guy
4045
Rep 6,363
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
1
Beek705.50 |
11-07-2018, 07:02 PM | #37 |
Colonel
1508
Rep 2,055
Posts |
Geico denied your claim because of aftermarket modifications? I called them last year to see if they covered aftermarket modifications and they said yes. There are many people on the Subaru forums who had success with MBI even with aftermarket tunes.
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-08-2018, 12:24 AM | #38 |
2JZ-GTE
3137
Rep 4,103
Posts |
If paying out of pocket you should be allowed to keep the parts. You can then do a possible root cause analysis and then perhaps pursue legal remedies. of course this will all be out of pocket unless you win.
One time I ran into some valve problems on my Honda which was under warranty and the dealer was not going to warrantee the car. This model had quite a bit a valve problems on the forums. I told the deelor that was OK and that I would bring the car elsewhere and have it repaired and then I would take valves and have them analyzed. I explained exactly who and how and where it would be analyzed. I asked the dealer to forward that information to HQ and they called me the next day and told me they would fix the car under warrantee and that I would not be allowed to keep the parts. My worry is that is not the case here. My money is the car for whatever reason runs lean with just the intake. Maybe there was air leak. Did the OP ever data log ??? There was another member on here that blew a b58 with the downpipe only. |
Appreciate
0
|
11-08-2018, 10:26 AM | #39 | ||||||
Cheapskate
4521
Rep 5,003
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So regardless, the OEM should be responsible when the issue is likely caused by something other than aftermarket parts. Which is why I said we all know that the intake didn't cause it. If they did the same diagnostic work that they would on a stock car to minimize their repairs and effort, maybe they'd be able to tell OP more than "your engine needs to be replaced" with no other explanation. But like I said, I've seen how it works both at the dealer and corporate level so I expect no less. Quote:
A few things to consider: - A lot of people run more oil than specified and with different weights at the track to protect the car. - A lot of people run aftermarket brake fluids for track purposes so it can handle the workload. - A lot of tunes and bolt ons help the car run safer and would be more reliable than the OEM tunes (lower AFR, less timing correction, cooler IATs, etc.) - Aftermarket companies come out with repairs for items that later get recalled before the OEM even admits something is messed up - OEMs will push dealers to look for aftermarket components and other outside factors when they see common issues to reduce the need for recalls and reduce the number of reported claims so consumer reports look better. So yeah, there's a lot that could be done. It's not in the OEMs best interest financially, and the dealer gets paid either way, so it's typically not done. But I guarantee if it was the techs own personal car they'd get to the bottom of it. |
||||||
Appreciate
0
|
11-09-2018, 03:37 AM | #40 | ||||||
Brigadier General
1977
Rep 3,987
Posts |
Quote:
1. Who is entitled to claim that his product is "OEM equivalent" and based on what? May I sell you a Kia and write in the nice, glossy brochure with the professional photos, conveniently tweaked curves and sexy ladies posing that it is "equivalent" to your BMW? Both have 4 wheels, steering wheel, seats - both fulfil the basic definition of a car, right...? 2. (to get back on topic) - can you please show me where it is claimed that a BMS Intake is "OEM equivalent"? I would really, really love to see that statement! If it exists (which I seriously doubt), it will answer question 1 above.... Quote:
If I am representing the manufacturer and you bring me a car that is damaged because you put diesel in, guess if I will honour the warranty!? I will send you back to the gas station to clarify whether you made a mistake or they did. But either case - I am not taking the cost. It is all about WHO takes the responsibility, not only about the technical aspect. Simple facts of life. Sometimes it is wiser to retain a stock item even if it is believed to be suboptimal, just to have the responsibility where you would rather have it! That's all I am saying. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in cars and women."
Last edited by Skyhigh; 11-09-2018 at 06:05 AM.. |
||||||
Appreciate
0
|
11-09-2018, 01:20 PM | #41 |
Cheapskate
4521
Rep 5,003
Posts |
Man you have no idea what you're talking about. That's why all you can do is pose questions. I told you I worked for an OEM and handled warranty claims. So you can take what I'm saying or continue trying to make up possibilities of what could be. What I'm stating are facts.
OEM equivalent means there is a spec for the part, and it meets the spec. You cannot sell a part with an OEM part number without it meeting the spec. It's illegal, and if they catch you doing it they can sue you. Most parts have multiple suppliers to the OEM, so if you order replacement rotors from BMW USA it's most likely made by a different supplier than the one that supplies the exact same rotors to BMW Europe. Often times they also split high volume components (like intake filters) just due to capacity constraints at individual suppliers. But it's all controlled by the OEM's quality and legal systems. Again, it's pretty simple and a lot of people focus on just those details every day. And for the last time, i never said BMS intake is oem equivalent. I said that it did not cause the issue to OP's motor. As in, statistically speaking, the chances of it coming from the intake are little to none. The reason an OEM should investigate an issue is because it is often times the fault of the factory design or quality issues from the plant. Again, they have warranty claims every day. They don't have crate engines for sale for no reason. These parts are manufactured and ordered by the OEM because they will need to use them for service, even on an engine that's only been sold for 3 years. When you don't investigate an issue, you leave a significant risk on the table. You leave the opportunity for more failures to occur with less time to investigate and fix it, which affects your quality numbers. I can't tell you how many times i read service reports where techs just try replacing components, or identify a repair that seemingly has no correlation to the customers concern. And those were always the cars that came back with the same issue a few weeks later. I don't need to watch youtube videos to understand any of this, and I'm sorry you think getting your info from youtube makes you an expert. I spent years working on cars from a birds-eye view all day and under my own car all night. It's not rocket science. And yes, cars have restrictive intakes and exhausts. You can visit any track day and see the most common mods are intakes and cat deletes or high flow cats to make the car breathe easier and rev more freely. And you can log your own car to see the same performance benefits. MAF readings increase, IATs decrease, etc. You said you're an engineer. This is all literally engineering 101. Except I actually have experience and you just have a bunch of questions. Maybe if OEMs were more ready to train their workforce and use proper diagnostic techniques, we'd have less recalls, faster repair times, and less repeat issues. Even the OP made multiple visits for the same issue. It's a more common trend than a lot of people realize. But that could be it's own topic in itself. |
Appreciate
0
|
11-09-2018, 01:51 PM | #42 |
Second Lieutenant
105
Rep 253
Posts
Drives: 16' AW 340i xDrive
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Orwelian Paradise
|
It's fun watching you guys.
However, I think what started this is the dealer denying warranty for engine damage because as they claimed the owner had a pod filter. I doubt the pod filter the owner had meets the requirement you mentioned. "OEM equivalent means there is a spec for the part, and it meets the spec. You cannot sell a part with an OEM part number without it meeting the spec. It's illegal, and if they catch you doing it they can sue you."
__________________
Their whole life sheep are scared of the wolf but in the end, it's the sheppard who eats them.
|
Appreciate
1
Skyhigh1976.50 |
11-09-2018, 08:25 PM | #43 |
Lieutenant Colonel
605
Rep 1,514
Posts |
If i remember correctly some guy took in his heavily modded B58 with JB4, water-meth, etc, etc and they blamed all those parts for the failure.... they come to find out the injector failed after further investigation which caused the cylinder to fail. I mean i don't think water-meth would harm the engine if anything it helps it in every way possible... help keep the intake valves clean, keep the IAT low, good octane bump, and of course the M4 GTS has water injection
I just don't understand how a intake can cause the engine to fail and misfire lmao. |
Appreciate
1
kern4174520.50 |
11-09-2018, 09:47 PM | #44 | |
First Lieutenant
98
Rep 314
Posts |
Quote:
Initially they blamed him, but the dealer ending up covering (I THINK) 95% of the cost, right? It was something along those lines, but it worked out great from what I remember. Also, in that same thread I remember a user posting a link where it showed three different B58 engines for sale around $3,000 (Possibly at a junk yard of some sort). You can always take that route too. Buy the engine and pay to get it dropped in. Would cost a lot less.
__________________
2016 BMW 340i M Sport | BMS Intake | JB4| ER Catless DP |
2018 Audi A4 S-Line| Daily Driver | Very very slow & boring| |
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
Tags |
b58, center bmw, engine failure, lemon law, misfire |
|
|