08-12-2020, 11:53 AM | #23 | |
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Timing is also pretty conservative (like because of the 92 WA fuel) and not great in one of the logs. Most the power is coming from boost. |
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08-12-2020, 12:37 PM | #24 |
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Here is one more log from the same day.. WOT pull in 3rd, shift to 4th and continue..
Again, street logs so less than ideal conditions: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f30...729b5413efb752
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08-12-2020, 01:25 PM | #25 | |
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At a basic level, timing is for lack of a better word pretty awful. In 3rd it goes negative on all cylinders and generally speaking there is a ton of timing being pulled across the board in both gears. This is there is gets interesting... This logs shows you making more boost than in the other 4th gear logs, up to 20psi in 3rd and ~20psi and even a little more throughout most of 4th. At the same time, WGDC is lower than in the other 4th gear pulls... which at the surface seems to make no sense if these were on the same day with the same hardware, etc. But the plot thickens when you look at timing. During the 4th gear pull right before 4k rpm a massive amount of timing gets pulled and cylinders go negative. At the same time boost starts to rise and WGDC falls simultaneously. Seem counter intuitive unless you realize that EGTs are going to skyrocket when you pull timing (especially when it goes negative). I am almost certain that this is a cascading effect of timing getting pulled causing EGTs to increase, then all that extra heat/energy from the high EGTs is causing the turbo to spool up even more, which causes the overboost and a decrease in WGDC at the same time. Boost starts to fall back down as timing is fed back in, but then you shift into 4th and timing has not fully recovered. It starts to recover a little but then gets pulled again (especially cyl 3) and boost creeps back up before falling back down slightly as timing becomes positive again after about 4300 rpm. Bottom line is this logs shows the very interesting effect that timing has on EGTs and in turn WGDC and boost. There are no EGT sensors on these cars so its not in the log, but i imagine they had to be through the roof (think glowing manifold during a long pull). MHD has a calculated EGT value that would have been very interesting to see. I would also note that there is no throttle closure from the overboost, which is characteristic of a BM3-ish tune (and unlike MHD and load based tunes). I would be very interested to see what your tuner says about this log. |
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08-12-2020, 01:32 PM | #26 |
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Really appreciate the review as I dont even pretend to read logs well beyond the most simplistic info.
I have all of the logs off to Cary for review as well, and asked that they take a very close look at it, to ensure not only things are where they should be, but everything is healthy.
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08-12-2020, 01:45 PM | #27 |
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Oh and side note.. I actually have MHD with a logging only license so could actually pull logs from there as well.
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08-12-2020, 01:52 PM | #28 | |
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Can you explain a bit on why/how timing drops effect EGTs and why increased EGT causes higher boost? |
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08-12-2020, 01:57 PM | #29 |
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thanks.. whenever you get a chance and can go to at least 6500 please do and post back. i need to see 6k+
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08-12-2020, 01:59 PM | #30 | |
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Basically, when you pull timing, you leave less time for the combustion to take place in the cylinder where you want it. The impact of higher EGTs on boost is easier to think of in terms of energy... higher temperature exhaust has more energy. The turbo takes the energy from the exhaust gases and uses it to spool the turbo. If the exhaust gases are higher temperature and have more energy, the turbo has more energy 'available' in the exhaust gases to spool. This same energy concept is applied all over the place - think about lean spool (lean AFR increases EGTs), 2step LC (which pulls timing generally), and even people who heat wrap manifolds to keep all that heat in (also under hood heat management aspect to this, but the idea of keeping the energy in the manifold and exhaust gases is the same). |
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08-12-2020, 02:00 PM | #31 | |
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Best I can do right now is quick WOT logs, conditions permitting, or back on a dyno sometime.
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08-12-2020, 03:39 PM | #32 |
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Just to add another data point, I did 10 map revisions with Cary and stopped tuning with him bc none of the maps were stable and all had issues in the logs. He said I had issues with plugs, coils, etc. “Couldn’t be the tune. I’ve tuned 1000s of BMW’s.”
Halim, on the other hand, provided 5 super stable and smooth revisions on the same hardware with no issues and more power. Cary is all hype, and if you blow your motor on his tune, well, “it’s not his fault....” |
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08-12-2020, 03:57 PM | #33 | |
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08-12-2020, 04:28 PM | #34 |
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Your logs are indicating otherwise at the moment, but we’ll sideline my comment until you hear back about your tune since that’s what most important.
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08-12-2020, 04:32 PM | #35 |
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I just saw this. That might be a good idea, especially because its much easier to see timing corrections, and you can enable EGT estimates as well. Overall more parameters in MHD i believe.
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08-12-2020, 04:49 PM | #36 | |
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The tune I got from Cary was amazing, and took my car that was struggling at times, to the ludicrous rocket it is now... so please don't read any criticism from ME into my tune or the work from Cary. I was referred to him by a true expert, and I have been nothing but happy so far.
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08-12-2020, 04:51 PM | #37 |
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and my MHD login is failing and their password recovery has yet to send the email (after like 10 requests). I will get it worked out.
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08-12-2020, 06:07 PM | #38 | |
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08-13-2020, 05:44 PM | #39 | |
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FF to ~10min mark for dyno comparisons |
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08-13-2020, 06:10 PM | #40 | |
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“I didn’t watch all these vids, but this car made more power on the BM3 OTS tune in a different “awesome” vid than Cary Jordan’s custom tune on the same car. What was the reason given? High IATs? Then the conclusion is “I need meth”, not that the custom tune didn’t provide any real benefits or that it was helping to create higher IATs, negating any real benefit? Where are the log files to show how the tunes responded to IAT? A 10F ambient difference isn’t going to be the reason a custom tune performed worse than OTS. The reality is the BM3 OTS tunes are better suited than any custom tune you’ll get on the same FBO hardware. If you bolt on a bigger turbo or go ethanol (and an HPFP to go with either), then you need a custom tune (or soon to come BM3 Stg 2+ E30-50 OTS). And in my experience, there are better options than Cary. Please someone who has time to watch all these videos tell me I’m wrong. It’s like someone made a YouTube video out of what we all here have already known since OTS 5.8 came out almost a year ago—it’s the max power you’ll get while being adaptable enough to handle summer and winter ambient temps with no drivability issues.” |
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08-13-2020, 06:28 PM | #41 | |
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Also agree there is really no reason at all to get a custom tune with FBO; you need HPFP, turbo upgrade, or both to really benefit, and ethanol mix to reap the greatest benefits. I think an important lesson here from this video and BMWDIYGUYs recent logs (that ZM2 is also getting at) is that you need to make sure your custom tune works under all possible driving conditions you will be driving in. You dont want to get a custom tune in the winter with 50F ambient temps only to have it offer terrible performance and other issues in the summer when its 90+F outside. |
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08-13-2020, 06:35 PM | #42 |
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Candidly I am unclear where by proxy suddenly my tune has issues? It has been running strong and with significant improvement over what I had before.
Also to be 100% fair to Active, who spent a VERY considerable amount of time with me and my tune, we were starting to run into my slipping clutch which made logs inconsistent and troubling at times. I am convinced now that it was my clutch slipping and exactly ZERO to due with issues with my AA tune. I was given an opportunity to try BM3, and then work with Cary as a way of trying something new, and of course I leapt at it. I was and am happy with AA, and continue to be happy with Cary and my custom tune which was stronger than the OTS for me. Its a little furstrating when what feels like was a simple question about tunes and options has turned into bashing one of the primary BM3 custom tuners, while using my logs (which I marked as HIGHLY suspect due to lack of driving, short WOT bursts and others) as somehow the evidence against him! If you dont like Cary.. awesome.. that is your opinion, and thats a bummer but your opinion. Please don't use my work, logs or tunes as weapons against him, as that is not the case.
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08-13-2020, 06:51 PM | #43 | |
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I'm glad you are happy with your custom tune, but if i saw logs like yours, i wouldnt run it. To be clear, I was in no way bashing Cary... Merely discussing the data that was presented in your logs and more recently in the video that was linked above. If the data shows (let's call it potential) issues with the tune and that is interpreted as bashing Cary, well I can't control that. Also, to be clear, you have a upgraded HPFP so it makes sense a custom tune can push you further than a OTS map (as we both mentioned in our posts above). Also, why are the logs suspect because of lack of driving? The car should run fine even if you drive it once a month unless you have fuel that has aged so badly it has lost octane, which i find very unlikely. I am in the same boat and drive my car maybe once every 2 weeks now, and i am running ethanol which is known to lose fuel quality faster than pump gas. And when i do drive, i am basically WOT every chance i get after the car warms up since its driving for fun and not commuting to work. So those are not reasons why the logs should show the tune is performing subpar. The bottom line is that logs are evidence because they are unbiased data. It's not about using your build/car/tune/work as a weapon against him... again; merely discussing what the data shows and if the data from the tunes doesnt look good... well then that speaks for itself. I personally dont have anything against Cary at all nor do i care what other people think about him because i have no plans to get a custom tune. The thread spiraling out into left field is typical of the forums, lol. |
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08-13-2020, 06:57 PM | #44 |
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Side note, I am hoping to get some dyno time soon, and if so will run S2 OTS and the custom tune to get comparisons in general.
Good feedback.
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