[JustChris]

So the VAG group are stopping diesels sales into the US now!

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswa...emissions-test

[JustChris]

For all those traders on the UK Bimmerpost....good time to but VAG shares yet or wait till the fine is officially announced and massive and shares dip then buy at a low?

[jyong1981]

Wow

[ROCKETRON]

I suspect that this is going on with a lot of other makes as well, but VW are probably worse as they are one of the few makes that are allowed to sell diesel in the US. If they recall the cars in the US i dont know what they will do to them as they wont be able to meet the legislation which is tougher than the european EU6. If they are forced to meet the figures then the cars could drive badly and their customers will be suing them as well.
A few years ago when governments were only interested in CO2 i noticed the Auto Express road tests often quoted the real CO2 of the car and it was often massively different from the official figure, so manipulation looks like its always been the way.

[HighlandPete]

The elephant has been in the room for some time, just that it isn't in the interests of most involved to tell the whole story.

Even as motorists, do we really want to be taxed on the real emission level from our exhausts?

If we know all the facts, then we have to address which really is the dirtiest fuel, petrol or diesel.

HighlandPete

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by jyong1981

Wow

Hmm, I think I see when this came out, yes that's is the MASSIVE DROP OFF A CLIFF !

[Wills2]

This issue coupled with falling demand in China and other countries is a bit of a perfect storm for VAG.

It will also not be welcome news at Porsche SE who own 51% of the voting rights of VAG and as such effectively control the group (most people think VAG bought Porsche)

The spat between Piech and Winterkorn isn't helping either.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Here is also the matter of cars sold that will now fail tests in the US.

[Wills2]

That's what spooked the investors, a bit of a bottomless pit, up to 18billion in US fines + a class action suit from the car owners + other countries starting their own investigations coupled with falling sales and a stop sale order on the diesel cars in the US.

I bit like BP issues but VAG aren't BP so this could unravel if they don't get it right.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Wills2

That's what spooked the investors, a bit of a bottomless pit, up to 18billion in US fines + a class action suit from the car owners + other countries starting their own investigations coupled with falling sales and a stop sale order on the diesel cars in the US.

I bit like BP issues but VAG aren't BP so this could unravel if they don't get it right.

Yes this could in theory kill VAG.

As they will be working through every single model going back X years.

I bet a few other manufacturers have been asking internally, 'Erm do we.. You know VAG it?'

[JustChris]

A 3G update is coming over the airwaves to all our UK BMW diesels as we speak............... Emissions Test Limiter.exe deleted

[....,,,,..,,..]

Going of the German government and response for papers.

I can see a lot of VAG execs on permanent toilet emptying duties at the Syrian Refugee camps.

[karma mechanic]

Reading the details of the original testing that revealed the discrepancies it would appear that the BMW X5 they were testing was actually meeting the standards:

EPA notice of violation

The VW cars failed dismally when actual real-world measurements were taken while the X5 fared a lot better.

[pdk42]

Originally Posted by karma mechanic

Reading the details of the original testing that revealed the discrepancies it would appear that the BMW X5 they were testing was actually meeting the standards:

EPA notice of violation

The VW cars failed dismally when actual real-world measurements were taken while the X5 fared a lot better.

• The two VW vehicles were tested over the FTP-75 certification cycle at California Air Resources Board’s (CARB) El Monte vehicle certification test facility, and their NOx emissions were below the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 standard.

• Real-world NOx emissions, as reported by the PEMS, were found to exceed the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 (at full useful life) standard by a factor of 15 to 35 for the Jetta, and by a factor of 5 to 20 for the Passat, over five pre-defined routes categorized based on their predominant driving conditions (highway, urban/suburban, and rural-up/downhill). The BMW was generally at or below the standard and only exceeded the standard during rural uphill operating conditions.

Very interesting. This is going to hurt VAG very, very badly. What's amazing is the stupidity of it. Surely someone at VAG should have realised that this ECU trick would be discovered. All you need to do is stuff a gas detection probe up an exhaust and drive it in normal road conditions - job done. Did they really think they could evade the testing authorities for ever? Someone was bound to find out and the longer they didn't the worst would be the storm to come.

Corporate suicide...

[JustChris]

This one is truly worthy of the mighty.....

[FSE23]

IMHO all that fuss is due to stupid politicians setting up unrealistic goals of reducing CO2 from cars so car manufacturers responded very well. We have now road tax based on CO2 emission removed from 2017 and I think it is the right thing to do. If anything it should be based on mileage driven - read should be a part of fuel price - then everybody would be paying according real emission, the more you drive the more you pay. How much pollution is a Ferrari driver responsible for doing 4k miles/year with 350gCO2 and how much diesel driver doing 50k miles/year even with 120gCO2? the answer is clear I suppose.

[tjlees]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

The elephant has been in the room for some time, just that it isn't in the interests of most involved to tell the whole story.

Even as motorists, do we really want to be taxed on the real emission level from our exhausts?

If we know all the facts, then we have to address which really is the dirtiest fuel, petrol or diesel.

HighlandPete

First of many - BMW next maybe?

[deebee]

This could be the deciding factor on if they enter F1 or not

I doubt it if they have an 18 billion bill on their hands

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by tjlees

First of many - BMW next maybe?

Well it appears that the X5 tested passed both in the real world and lab test and wasn't using software to defeat the official test cycle so perhaps not.

We shall see, but I think you'll find some proactive denials from BMW and Mercedes soon if they are in the clear.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by piono

IMHO all that fuss is due to stupid politicians setting up unrealistic goals of reducing CO2 from cars so car manufacturers responded very well. We have now road tax based on CO2 emission removed from 2017 and I think it is the right thing to do. If anything it should be based on mileage driven - read should be a part of fuel price - then everybody would be paying according real emission, the more you drive the more you pay. How much pollution is a Ferrari driver responsible for doing 4k miles/year with 350gCO2 and how much diesel driver doing 50k miles/year even with 120gCO2? the answer is clear I suppose.

Well you do pay more through fuel duty as you buy a hell of a lot more to do 50k than you do to do 4k (even in a fezza)

But the issue at hand is the cheating of the standard rather than the reasons for the standard.

[tjlees]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Well it appears that the X5 tested passed both in the real world and lab test and wasn't using software to defeat the official test cycle so perhaps not.

We shall see, but I think you'll find some proactive denials from BMW and Mercedes soon if they are in the clear.

Ok didn't know that. If the heavy x5 passed, it's likely the 3, 5 and 6 series are ok.

As others have said, real world MPG on vags are similar to BMW/merc but suppose this is about NOX.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by tjlees

Ok didn't know that. If the heavy x5 passed, it's likely the 3, 5 and 6 series are ok.

As others have said, real world MPG on vags are similar to BMW/merc but suppose this is about NOX.

Well who knows I was just paraphrasing the post above ours in the thread, maybe they have hidden the software better! (but it appears the car performed as expected)

I think VAG have been utterly stupid in this action and how far up the chain does the decision go?