[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by jedi-knight83

Actually.. Bill... how many of your comments are based on swapping speakers with OEM amps. Surely the parameters all change with additional amplification.

No, they don't, at least not the small signal parameters, which is all we're concerned with. Driver parameters can shift at high power levels, but when I say high I mean 300w and up.

[jedi-knight83]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

No, they don't, at least not the small signal parameters, which is all we're concerned with. Driver parameters can shift at high power levels, but when I say high I mean 300w and up.

fair enough. So in your opinion the OEM speakers still out perform most of the aforementioned upgrades even with say, 85w per channel (260w for the subs)

[Onizukachan]

Originally Posted by jedi-knight83

Very in depth... but you are forgetting that I've got and tried the up7BMW and although the DSP software is brilliant, I felt the power wasn't actually any improvement over the stock Hi-Fi amp.

Also, I'm not going to be running a centre channel and I actually ended up muting this channel on the up7bmw anyway.

So running the Audison with the under seat's running bridged will give more power to all channels than the up7bmw.


I am however now looking at trying the Helix DSP3 and then running an Audison SR4.300 and an SR4.500 to run the speakers and my 10" JL sub in the boot.

Just ordered an RTA mic as well which I'm looking forward to using to test if my ears are as good as I think they are

I found the extra power and xover control let me run the door speakers lower and louder than stock amp. I noted the difference even before tuning, but then like the fictional “Bob Fliber” I like it loud, ok!

I didn’t turn off my center on my tune, but like the rear it’s massively attenuated. Like -7 or -9 and despite having added the tweeter (total waste even on stock amp, sounded better without) have it on from 160- 3000 only. It does help with passenger seating not sounding so FUBAR when TA’d. Ie I can sit there and NOT pull my hair put after 30 seconds.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by jedi-knight83

fair enough. So in your opinion the OEM speakers still out perform most of the aforementioned upgrades even with say, 85w per channel (260w for the subs)

I don't have opinions about how speakers function. I follow the science, which always works, whether you understand it or not. On that there's this:
https://speakerwizard.co.uk/thiele-s...-are-they-for/
It barely scratches the subject of T/S parameters, but it's a start.

Replacement speakers can go louder with lower THD than OEM with more power, it they have the xmax to handle it. If not, they can't. That's the science behind that particular question.

[VertigoAtHome]

As always, this is an interesting thread. Can someone post the TS parameters for the BMW HiFi front door component speakers and the under seat 8" subs? Ideally the ones in the G05 although they may not have changed from earlier generations. Sorry if this has already been posted, don't' remember seeing the actual numbers and I can't seem to find them anywhere else.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by VertigoAtHome

As always, this is an interesting thread. Can someone post the TS parameters for the BMW HiFi front door component speakers and the under seat 8" subs? Ideally the ones in the G05 although they may not have changed from earlier generations. Sorry if this has already been posted, don't' remember seeing the actual numbers and I can't seem to find them anywhere else.

Check the part numbers in Realoem website to see if speakers used by BMW have changed in different models or remain the same.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by VertigoAtHome

Can someone post the TS parameters for the BMW HiFi front door component speakers and the under seat 8" subs?

BMW Hi-Fi Woofer 2015 F30

Fs 51 Hz
Qes 1.00
Qms 3.02
Qts 0.75
Vas 18.4L
Re 2.4 Ohms
Le 0.22 mH
Sd 200 sq cm
xMax 6 mm

BMW Hi-Fi Midrange 2015 F30

Fs 117 Hz
Qes 1.17
Qms 3.56
Qts 0.88
Vas 1.3 L
Re 3.2 Ohms
Le 0.23 mH
Sd 50 sq cm
xmax 2mm

[VertigoAtHome]

Originally Posted by johnung

Check the part numbers in Realoem website to see if speakers used by BMW have changed in different models or remain the same.

Thanks for sharing the numbers Bill. Looks like the speakers used in the G05 are different than the previous generation F15. No idea of the quality difference, if any, between them. Is it possible to find the T/S for the G05 somewhere?

G05:
65132622515 Central woofer HIFI-SYSTEM
65136813697 Hifi-System Tweeter
65136809629 mid-range loudspeaker hifi

F15:
65139287757 Central woofer HIFI-SYSTEM
65139220750 Tweeter HIFI-SYSTEM
65139286367 Midrange speaker for hifi system

F30:
65139210149 Central bass, left HIFI-SYSTEM
65139220750 Tweeter HIFI-SYSTEM
65139264944 Midrange speaker for hifi system

[Billfitz]

Probably not. I had to measure mine myself.

[jedi-knight83]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I looked at the Audison manual. Setting the DSP is a daunting task at best, and I'm a pro-sound engineer. I can't imagine a layman weeding his way through it.

First time using the Audison software today... its not daunting at all.... but it is utterly crap!

The Audiotech Fischer software beats it hands down. I'm very tempted to just buy the Helix DSP.3 and some more amps!

Really disappointed. I'd been looking forwards to trying the AP F8.9 for months now. I'll still finish the install and see how it sounds but the software is just down right terrible for such an expensive product and such a big company

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by VertigoAtHome

Thanks for sharing the numbers Bill. Looks like the speakers used in the G05 are different than the previous generation F15. No idea of the quality difference, if any, between them. Is it possible to find the T/S for the G05 somewhere?

G05:
65132622515 Central woofer HIFI-SYSTEM
65136813697 Hifi-System Tweeter
65136809629 mid-range loudspeaker hifi

F15:
65139287757 Central woofer HIFI-SYSTEM
65139220750 Tweeter HIFI-SYSTEM
65139286367 Midrange speaker for hifi system

F30:
65139210149 Central bass, left HIFI-SYSTEM
65139220750 Tweeter HIFI-SYSTEM
65139264944 Midrange speaker for hifi system

This thread is an interesting read as I am researching upgrading the amp in my F80 as of late….

But regarding this post, you can't go by part number alone to determine if the same specs for speakers are used across different BMW models and/or generations. For example, the underseat woofers used in BMWs are not sold separately from the enclosure - they are sold as a unit.

With a few exceptions, different model BMWs use different enclosures (with different part numbers). For example, the G05 X5 and the G07 X7 share the same underseat woofer part number for the different sound system levels (HiFi vs HK vs B&W) as both are SAVs, but not with F30/F80 sedans as the enclosure is a different shape design. The actual woofers could be the same, with the only way to verify being to look at the label on the actual woofer. This also applies to other speakers as well, such as the tweeters, since they have different mounting configurations in different vehicles - even though the actual tweeter itself may be the same.

Having replaced the speakers in both my F80 and X7, I speak from first hand experience on this. Not to say BMW did not use the same speaker specs in different models/generations (or mounting configurations) as there are cost savings using that approach. But the only way to really verify is to find the actual speaker specs by model, which can be very challenging to find - if at all unfortunately.

[jedi-knight83]

Ok... so the standard S676A 'hifi' subs actually really kick once you run them with 260w per channel.

Finally got my APF8.9 amp installed and done my best at using the DOG**** software to set the system up (Jesus Christ the Audison software is so poor compared to the Audiotec Fischer!) and with the sub channels running bridged they are getting 260w if you believe the spec sheet (although this says for 4ohms so not sure whats going on if the OEM subs are in fact closer to 2ohm?)

The APF8.9 definitely works the subs harder than the UP7 (which is rated at 160w to the subs)

Although they now sound powerful and actually give a nice low rumble, they dont really sound refined or tight. Going to strip the enclosures and add some deadening and some speaker damping wadding just to see if I can get the OEM woofers to sound ok. Then I'll compare them against my Rainbow upgrade woofers.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by jedi-knight83

Ok... so the standard S676A 'hifi' subs actually really kick once you run them with 260w per channel.

Finally got my APF8.9 amp installed and done my best at using the DOG**** software to set the system up (Jesus Christ the Audison software is so poor compared to the Audiotec Fischer!) and with the sub channels running bridged they are getting 260w if you believe the spec sheet (although this says for 4ohms so not sure whats going on if the OEM subs are in fact closer to 2ohm?)

The APF8.9 definitely works the subs harder than the UP7 (which is rated at 160w to the subs)

Although they now sound powerful and actually give a nice low rumble, they dont really sound refined or tight. Going to strip the enclosures and add some deadening and some speaker damping wadding just to see if I can get the OEM woofers to sound ok. Then I'll compare them against my Rainbow upgrade woofers.

FYI- The AF Match Up 7BMW puts 4 ohms to the door/dash channels and 2x 160w into 2-ohms for the two under-seat subwoofers.

[jedi-knight83]

Originally Posted by johnung

FYI- The AF Match Up 7BMW puts 4 ohms to the door/dash channels and 2x 160w into 2-ohms for the two under-seat subwoofers.

Well I don't quite know what happening with the Audison then as if they are 2ohm are they getting more than 260w? but they sound punchier and the bass is deeper than it was with the UP7 and obviously the OEM S676A amp.

Been too busy with work to strip the cabin and doors.... but I managed to get the amps all wired and fitted nicely and my 10" JLW3V3 fitted.

[MarinoVir]

Hi, I have read all the pages which I have learned many things that I was not aware of. I was hoping to find some answers to my question. On F30, I have an audison sr5 amplifier, for the moment configured as follows: 2 front ant channels with two mtx coaxials, 2 channels to the Harman kardon subs (I think they are 8 ohm) while on the rear front I left the 2 channels of the original source with 2 coaxial focal. For the moment I am not using the 5th channel of the amplifier as I wanted to mount a sub in the trunk. I don't want to take space away from the trunk and I thought of this solution: 2 channels at the front, 2 at the rear and connect the 2 subs under the seat in parallel to make them work at 4 ohms as I am not very happy with the current configuration. Also I want to replace the front fronts with 2-way speakers and certainly the rear ones as well. Do you think it is a right choice? Or some advice is welcome.

[FastFrog]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

The original OEM setup doesn’t have crossovers between the midranges and tweeters. It only has a cheap capacitor that keeps the midrange out of the tweeters. It doesn’t do a very good job of it, leading to distortion. There’s no filtering on the midranges to keep the high frequencies out of them, so literally a quarter of the high frequencies are lost going to the midranges that can't reproduce them.

This third order high pass filter is sixteen times more effective than a single capacitor in blocking midrange from the tweeters.

https://billfitzmaurice.info/images/...z highpass.jpg

The low pass filter is second order. By using a third order high pass with a second order low pass polarity issues are avoided.

https://billfitzmaurice.info/images/BMW/Low pass.jpg

These are the parts:

8.2uf cap: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...citor--027-426

20uF cap: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...citor--027-436

0.1mH coil: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...-coil--257-020

0.2mH coil: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...-coil--257-024

These filters tap into the wiring to the drivers. The tweeters normally plug into the midranges, so you have to create a ‘Y’ in the wire leading to each midrange. One leg of the wire goes to the low pass filter and then to the midrange, the other goes to the high pass filter and then to the tweeter. The capacitor on the factory wire between the midrange and tweeter is discarded. The components can be hot melt glued and plastic zip tied to perf boards for placement in the doors.
https://www.parts-express.com/red-pe...5-x-5--260-180

Thanks for this.
Even before I read it, I felt like it was kind of necessary/better to separate mid and tweeter channels frequency-wise, so this post puts words on it and I'm planning to reproduce it for my own setup.
I was wondering whether both high and low pass filters could be physically close one to the other. Bottom line being, is it fine to use the same mounting board for both flters, or should they rather be as far as possible on 2 different boards.

[Billfitz]

I didn't use boards, as there's not a lot of room inside the door cards for them. I hard wired the components, attaching them with hot melt glue into nooks on the door where they fit without interfering with the door cards. While I had the cards off I covered the doors wherever possible with vinyl mastic: https://www.amazon.com/Noico-deadeni...ef_=ast_sto_dp

[Kevin @ Integral Audio]

Originally Posted by FastFrog

I was wondering whether both high and low pass filters could be physically close one to the other. Bottom line being, is it fine to use the same mounting board for both flters, or should they rather be as far as possible on 2 different boards.

If you are putting them on a single board, rotate the coils 90 deg to each other on two axis to minimize inductive crosstalk. The rising and collapsing of the magnetic field around one coil will induce a current in a proximate coil. The worst possible arrangement would be to have them side-by-side and both flat on the board. Separate them as much as possible and rotate them on 2 axis like this:





Worth considering going with a larger gauge on the series coil. You will reduce sensitivity with the added series resistance.

[Onizukachan]

Originally Posted by jedi-knight83

Been too busy with work to strip the cabin and doors.... but I managed to get the amps all wired and fitted nicely and my 10" JLW3V3 fitted.

Looks nice. Just wish the basser.pl enclosure was a better match carpet wise. It would almost disappear.

If you ever run across a wrecked wagon you can do what I did on my e34, ie take the carpeting off the interior floor section and use it to cover the enclosure with true matching carpet.

[eleven11]

Originally Posted by Onizukachan

Looks nice. Just wish the basser.pl enclosure was a better match carpet wise. It would almost disappear.

If you ever run across a wrecked wagon you can do what I did on my e34, ie take the carpeting off the interior floor section and use it to cover the enclosure with true matching carpet.

I've read posts here of users dyeing the Basser carpet to match, with good success.

[ivang80]

Where is buy Subwoofer for BMW X1 E84?

[ivang80]

Any help pleas