02-16-2022, 05:54 PM | #45 | |
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02-17-2022, 07:43 AM | #46 |
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Update. I think the O2 sensor isn't the issue. I've had it unplugged for the past few days and while I think it might be better, I can get it to do surge under the same general conditions. I know I'm running with no sensor at all, however, I figured if it ran fine open loop, then it might point to something. I did reset a bunch of adaptations (lambda, throttle, load, etc.) prior to unplugging the sensor to ensure I was dealing with a 'fresh' DME, but seems as if that didn't matter. I can't believe this problem. It's absolutely insane that a 60k car has this kind of issue. I do have a new O2 sensor on the way, so I'll replace and report back, however, I'm not hopeful. Since the car didn't do it when it was newer and over time it started happening and actually has gotten worse to where it is now, it has to be sensor related. Seems unlikely that it's a DME or programming issue (especially since I had the dealer reprogram the car a few weeks ago). I'll try and log mine so it's available for anyone to view. One way or another, I'm going to figure this out.
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02-20-2022, 04:55 PM | #47 |
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Update and potential solution...
I pulled the MAP in the charge pipe and the car drove like junk, so I know that's not the problem. Going back to the o2 sensor. The car drove much better with the sensor unplugged, but not perfectly. I put in a new sensor and it was back to poor driving. I did have a BMW intake that I took off and went back to stock but I still had the aftermarket DP installed (Active Autoworks High Flow Catted downpipe). Figuring that I had to put the car back to stock before taking it to the dealer, I pulled the downpipe and noticed that the gasket between the downpipe and turbo wasn't fully sealed. The metal gasket was crushed on one side and was not on the other. The side that wasn't crushed/sealed, had dark blow-by gas marks. I think the poor seal at the exhaust point, which is essentially before the O2 sensor, was causing the sensor to act erratically. I'll be driving the car tomorrow to work and we'll see if it's better. If so, that certainly points to a potential solution, being an exhaust leak before the 02 sensor. While there may be people that are still completely stock, the v-band clamp that connects the downpipe to the turbo may be loose. That would cause the same issues. I'll post findings tomorrow. Last edited by Robs335iproblems; 02-21-2022 at 09:07 AM.. |
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02-22-2022, 12:24 PM | #48 | |
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02-23-2022, 04:01 PM | #49 |
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Not sure I've seen any improvements, however, the gasket was an issue and I had to eliminate the possibility that the DP was the issue.
In the latest move, I've been retrofitting ACC into the car, so I needed to code the eBay DSC module in ESYS, so I figured, why not, I coded both the DME and TCU to the car's VO. I'll say that in the one hour of drive time today, the car drove better than it has in a long time. Started smoothly from a dead stop and drove great (starting from a light or stop sigh had been choppy also). I don't know whether or not encoding the ECU's back to the VO essentially erased any old superfluous data, reset adaptations or whatever, but for now, the car is driving great. For me, the surging always comes back, even when I reset the adaptations, typically in short order, so I'll be curious to see if this does the trick. I'll be on the road tomorrow for at least 2-3 hours, so if it doesn't come back, then I'll say I've found the solution. |
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02-23-2022, 05:48 PM | #50 | |
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02-24-2022, 05:40 PM | #51 |
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I think this is finally the problem/solution!
Yep, stock intake and stock DP have been back on the car for a few hundred miles. There's nothing that I've done to the car that has had any changes in behavior. Also LTFT was reading -.1 and STFT ran in a range between -2 to +2, so they seem to be reasonable and the fuel trim adaptations were reset a while ago. So today, I started reviewing and logging every value that I could while driving around. Everything looked good until I got to the Intake VANOS. That's where things started to go off the rails. I looked at both the required and actual exhaust VANOS angle and intake VANOS angle. I did this under heavy acceleration, coasting and light acceleration. The required angle and actual angle on the exhaust were nearly identical. Maybe a degree or two off as I was accelerating, etc. however, when coasting, they were spot on. But not the Intake VANOS. I found that the intake VANOS was jumping/cycling all over the place anywhere from 10-15 degrees above and then below the required angle. Even when I was coasting. I could watch the intake angle drop, then increase then drop, in a very rhythmic cycle. Except under very hard acceleration, it constantly bounced up and down. And, when I started driving with very light acceleration, I could feel the surges corresponding in exact timing with the higher/lower spikes in the VANOS angle. All of the other graphs made sense. Throttle was steady but RPM, Load and Lambda all began to bounce in the same rhythm as the VANOS. Thinking that the VANOS is a solenoid and/or spring set up, it might make sense that it's going bad and the car is continually trying to get actual values to match the required value and in doing so, it undershoots, then over shoots over and over. I've read on other forums that the VANOS has been suggested as a root cause, but that was on N54/N55 forums. Although this solenoid is a different design, it's having the same effect. Odd that there are no codes, but maybe it just hasn't gotten that bad yet. I tried the VANOS test in ISTA for the intake solenoid and the first time, it 'passed' but I could see the values were technically outside the allowed +/- 5 degrees. I then did the exhaust and it hit the values all within +/- 1 degrees. I then went back to do the intake again and this time, it failed. I got an 'Adjustment is too slow or the setpoint value cannot be reached'. Bingo, Intake VANOS Solenoid issue! Problem is, the B58, with the timing chain against the firewall, has the VANOS solenoids also against the firewall. Not easy to get too like the old ones, so that's going to be a PITA to swap out, but now I'm convinced that's the issue. I will also say that this has happened over time. It wasn't a one day it didn't surge and the next day it did, so clearly it was something that got worse over time. I have a 435 with an N55 with all sorts of mods, similar to this one, so I didn't think it could be an intake or DP or tune as it simply didn't make sense that the car would behave so poorly with those very basic mods. Last edited by Robs335iproblems; 02-24-2022 at 06:22 PM.. |
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02-25-2022, 02:17 PM | #52 |
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SOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The issue did come down to the intake VANOS Actuator. P/N 11367614288 A stupid $61 part was the culprit behind all of this hideous driving. A few things I learned... 1. No codes. That's what makes it so hard to find. And when I ran ISTA, the first time, it passed. If you take it to a dealer, they'll probably see the same thing which is why they can't offer a solution. 2. They seem to die slowly. This did not happen overnight. It was a long slow progression over the last 6-8 months when I first felt like the car surged until now, when it was nearly undrivable. 3. They are easy to replace. Don't listen to any other post regarding B58 engines needing to be dropped to get to the actuator. It's not any harder than replacing spark plugs. You'll need to remove the cross bar brace and cowling, but it's only a handful of bolts. No special tools needed. Watch the video and about half way though, he explains how to get to the actuator. 4. They are probably going to fail often, which is why a lot of people report having the surging issue. My dealer had 4 in stock and the part's guy said, yeah, we have a bunch so they do go bad. 5. It's amazing how poorly the car drove. Since it happens over time, you can't feel had badly it's gotten until it's replaced. Now that it's fixed, I can't believe how smoothly it drives. 6. This is only a fix for the surging at mid level RPM. I will say that sometimes, when it was bad, even starting out I'd feel a surge, but mainly, it was felt during the mid-level RPM driving. There is a SIB (recall) for DME reprograming, which is intended to fix some minor drivability issues. Make sure you have that done first and then attack the actuator. 7. This only applies to B58. The VANOS system for the N series engines is different. While a VANOS may fix those issues, this problem seems to be only on B58 with the actuator being the fix. 8. I think the intake is where the problem lies. I doubt the exhaust would have the same result, so focus on the intake actuator. Hopefully this gives people hope. Even if you take it to a dealer, insist they replace the actuator, or do it on your own. Now I can put my BMS intake back on, install my DP and bench unlock my DME so I can retune the car. All I care is that it's back and it feels great. Last edited by Robs335iproblems; 02-25-2022 at 02:23 PM.. |
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02-26-2022, 08:10 AM | #53 |
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Very cool, thanks for the update. The VANOS would be changing engine flows which would explain your issues. "Problem" is until it went really bad (I don't even know if you'd get a code for that unless it flat out failed), it becomes more of just the issues you experienced.
Putting this info in the back of the mind for later use.... |
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05-21-2022, 05:35 PM | #54 | |
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05-22-2022, 11:18 PM | #55 | ||||
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Have no codes. Have found a problem with my wiring harness and the clip that reads my rear O2 sensor is broken. Will replace the intake solenoid while doing the wiring harness and clip. My logs show my Lambda Actual bouncing all over the place with Throttle Closure. https://datazap.me/u/diggler70/log-1...=0&data=11 Fingers crossed.
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05-23-2022, 10:58 PM | #57 | |
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05-23-2022, 10:59 PM | #58 |
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05-24-2022, 10:51 AM | #59 |
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as with others who have experienced this same issue, no codes were thrown. I was in the same boat as many others, car ran like this for months. Changed coils, spark plugs, reset adaptations. I even replaced the VANOS actuators. Problem was still there. Until one day i was on facebook and someone w/the exact issue had his car diagnosed and saw that it was the lambda sensors. I replaced both and car is back to running like new. The sensors are cheap, i bought the pre 02 sensor from trodo.com and the post 02 sensor off of ebay.
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05-24-2022, 07:31 PM | #60 | |
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06-24-2022, 05:56 PM | #61 | |
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Thank you for this info, i am experiencing the exact same thing. I received my new actuator yesterday and will install it this weekend. I dont have a log as I am stock, but if its not the intake side, I will swap the used intake one to the exhaust. I will p[ost if it worked for me as well |
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06-26-2022, 12:03 PM | #63 |
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Thanks for the tip. As the original poster, many years later. I can also confirm this a fix for the bucking issue but other drivability issues too. I will update the main post.
I replaced both of the actuators. It solved the bucking, but also rough 1-2 shift on cold start. Hard shifts on sport+ (kinda miss those tbh but can be solved by xHD tune, which I originally bought solve some issues). Hard downshifts, especially 1 and 2. Jerking when applying and releasing throttle, especially noticeable when the torque converter wasn't locked, stop and go traffic was really a chore. I actually thought I had an issue with the transmission, but the actuators were the cause all along. Thanks Robs335iproblems A few tips for removing, as for me I didn't feel it was that easy. Get a short stubby flathead screwdriver (seen in video from mevans313 ) I had a friend lend me one he has from his dad, probably 30 years old, but for getting out the passenger side actuator is almost impossible without this. When you get the actuator turned about a inch-two inches, and it wont go anymore with your hand or the screw driver. Try to pry it off a bit and then keep turning, it will release real easy that way. it took me half an hour to realize this. Also be careful not to drop those metal clips that face downwards. Its a real PITA to get back in. Nigh impossible if you have bigger sized hands. Last edited by VVlasy; 06-26-2022 at 12:22 PM.. |
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06-26-2022, 12:32 PM | #64 |
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Which one was the problem for you? Intake or exhaust? I still recommend replacing both... If you replace one, the other will give in some time later as well.
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06-27-2022, 10:46 AM | #65 | |
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06-28-2022, 09:36 PM | #66 |
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