05-20-2020, 06:52 AM | #45 |
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The frame is similar but it is slightly shorter. However, the core is over 2x as thick. that's where the extra capacity comes from.
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05-20-2020, 11:14 AM | #46 | |
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05-20-2020, 12:36 PM | #47 | |
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A larger heat exchanger in our case will do a lot (in theory). When you floor it, the pump turns on and a surge of cool coolant goes through the intercooler. A larger heat exchanger means that there will be a longer period of cool coolant going through. Unfortunately the nature of water is that it also takes longer to cool down. The *goal* is that the larger radiator will help reduce this period in cases like mine where the IATs tend to hover at 20F-30F over ambient afer doing a few pulls. Still no data since it has been raining non-stop since Friday (yesterday had a few flash flood warnings). But hopefully Friday/Saturday I can do some logging and post that up. |
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05-21-2020, 08:58 AM | #48 |
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DIY added to the OP
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05-25-2020, 01:51 PM | #50 |
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Alright, here's the data. I'll make a video later with full comparison/review, but I want to post the log here first to get some feedback.
Method: 3 back to back pulls from ~40-140, starting in 3rd at 2500rpm and running 4th out the redline. I truncated the data to be 3000rpm in 3rd to 6900rpm in 4th. I know it's not perfect but I think the general concept is solid. Ambient/IAT Delta = Difference between ambient temps and IATs Intercooler Delta = Difference between intake temps before and after the intercooler https://datazap.me/u/kern4179/stock-...at?log=0&data= My main takeaways 1. The Amb/IAT delta are similar, but the temps were 20F hotter for CSF pulls 2. The intercooler delta increased with the CSF radiator despite hotter ambient temps (made the intercooler more efficient) 3. The rise in IATs during a pull is reduced with CSF 4. No matter what, temps increase in back to back pulls Let me know what else you want to see. I also have data showing how temps increase when parked for ~5 minutes, as well as how temps reduce once you get rolling. Again, it's not super scientific so I just have it saved for now since it might not be useful. From what i saw, CSF cooled down IATs more quickly when you got going but didn't make a big difference in heat soak when parked. So overall a good upgrade for roll/road racing, but not sure how much it'll improve for drag racing.
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05-26-2020, 07:37 AM | #51 | |
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Interesting results, looks like an average of about 11% improvement over stock when looking at the IAT delta over the 3 back-to-back runs. IAT's still increase quite a bit in back-to-back runs, but as you say, less than stock would have with the same ambient temp. In summary, do you think it's worth upgrading the intercooler heat exchanger? Would you do it again if you had a stock B58 car to start modifying?
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05-26-2020, 09:41 AM | #52 | |
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I was also trying to force a worst case scenario with less than 30s between pulls. Every time I hit 140, hit the brakes, downshifted, and did another pull. This would be more similar to road racing where you're always either on the gas or brakes. For a few random pulls when normally driving or messing around with friends, the main benefit is that IATs don't increase as much during a pull. Personally, I'd probably switch to a stage 1/2 OTS map to keep temps down on a track day and keep the heat exchanger as additional cooling support. I also think this proves that a heat exchanger can only do so much. The relatively small intercooler is working hard, reducing temps by over 200F at times. A larger intercooler will be a better upgrade to reduce IATs when you get past a certain point, although it'll likely be 4x the price of a heat exchanger. Time will tell when offerings are made available. This upgrade will mostly benefit people that do roll racing and road racing. If you're drag racing, nothing beats putting ice on the manifold between runs. It may show a reduction in temps when going off the line because you need airflow for it to work, but it'll heat soak while you're in the pits. Other questions I have/other's have asked 1. Would polished perform better than the black one I got? 2. How much of the gains are attributed to reducing the coolant ratio? 3. Will the gains be greater if I compared stock v CSF in hotter temps? |
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05-26-2020, 09:06 PM | #54 | |
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This should assist the heat transfer at the radiator and also at the water to air intercooler.
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05-27-2020, 06:43 AM | #55 |
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what's funny is on supramkv twisted commented that it didn't help them, but they think it's because they are past the intercoolers effective range.
https://www.supramkv.com/threads/csf...e-2#post-82061 I lost confidence in going that route since some people commented that the coolant has lubrication properties as well for the water pump. I may try it just for summer but not sold on it as a viable option yet. |
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05-27-2020, 09:33 AM | #56 | |
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When are we finally going to see aftermarket IC? Plenty of options for the S55 and yes I know that for the S55 it's just upgrading the A2W whereas for the B58 its Intake Manifold + A2W, but still you would think there would have been one or two options by now.
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05-27-2020, 12:58 PM | #57 | |
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Regarding the intercooler, There needs to be a market for it. It would be awesome if we could just swap a core like the S55, but a likely $2k+ manifold will be difficult to sell. |
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05-27-2020, 02:46 PM | #58 | |
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05-27-2020, 04:43 PM | #59 | |
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(https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/t...ds-d_1260.html), https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/e...col-d_146.html. Might be worth running this mix as low as you can get away with based on minimum temps where you live. Water has about 2.3x the thermal conductivity as EG (and about 2x the specific heat). How hard is it to flush/drain the system? Might be a worthwhile addition to the track day prep list to swap out for water + wetter. I think you're right that the IC is the bottleneck. If your thermal circuit looks like this: Charge air -/\/\/\/- Intercooler -/\/\/\/- Coolant -/\/\/\/- Radiator -/\/\/\/- Ambient air Flux is a function of δT across the boundaries, so there are only a few knobs to turn to increase flux across R1: - Keep the coolant temp lower (greater δT) - Increase the conductivity of the coolant interface - Increase the convection coefficient at the intercooler/coolant interface Convection is a function of boundary layer thickness. Do we know what the flow rates on that pump are? If the flow is laminar you could theoretically get some gains by increasing the flow rate until it's turbulent/fully developed flow inside the intercooler core. Do we have any info on the intercooler core? Pictures? Measurements? |
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05-27-2020, 08:41 PM | #60 | ||
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I don't know the flow rate of the pump, but I do know Paul set it to max duty cycle when demand calls for it. I don't think it will help either, though. You either need a bigger reservoir, or a bigger intercooler to further optimize the system. There are a few pictures from SC_B5X teardown. It's removable, but I'm not sure how you would install a larger/more efficient one in the same cavity. https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1699735 Quote:
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05-28-2020, 11:15 AM | #61 | ||
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If @[SC_B5X] could get measurements of that core, I could throw together some rough laminova end caps in Solidworks to fit that space. It looks like it also runs a serial flow path through the stock core (Hard to tell for sure from the pics). Changing that to parallel or mixed flow would let the whole core work more effectively. How does the stock mani seal? Is it bonded or bolted? Looks like it's bonded. Might be worth talking to 3M.. they have some urethane-based adhesives that might be able to handle re-sealing.. |
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05-28-2020, 01:00 PM | #62 | |
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The manifold is plastic welded. I'll have to look into the end caps, haven't heard of it. But the inlet/outlet are on one side and come out of the bottom. I don't think you can have it exit on the opposite side due to the accessories. |
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05-28-2020, 01:35 PM | #63 |
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This is also probably a long shot, but I'm looking into rerouting the coolant path to use one of my aux radiators for the engine and integrate it into the intercooler circuit instead. Seems like it would be a fairly easy retrofit but I'm probably not considering something.
My car only came with one of the aux radiators, so I could either add a second one or just pull from the one I have now. More coming soon. |
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05-28-2020, 08:42 PM | #64 |
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Bah, I underestimated the size of the laminova stuff. Playing with it in Solidworks looks like half of what I though it was. You *might* be able to squeeze 12 245mm cores in there (~1100hp), but it would be tight and likely less efficient than their 2.5mm/HP suggests.
The aux radiator sounds like a solid plan. I think it might be reasonable to consider using the Burger water injection tank in the trunk as an auxiliary reservoir too (where you could potentially put ice), but you'd likely need a second pump to deal with the flow losses from the long runs of tubing. |
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05-29-2020, 06:54 AM | #65 | |
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- We have a return line for intercooler overflow that runs to the stock tank. So at a minimum we'd need to keep the stock tank. - At a minimum I'd want to lower the position of the pump so it's below the height of the trunk floor. Otherwise I'd need to find a new additional pump that works. - Concerned about finding lines and fittings that are large enough to support the needed flow. - There are questions about running it inline vs on a switch, but a switch would probably be easiest. Some may have seen Peter's setup where he built a custom crash bar with an integrated tank. He said that + the wagner radiator was a significant improvement. |
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05-29-2020, 01:24 PM | #66 | |
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Plumbing would definitely not be trivial. I think the best way would be to run the rear tank pressurized and have a stronger pump (N55 coolant pump? EMS/stewart warner Ford GT intercooler pump?) push coolant through it (easier to push through a restriction than to pull through it). But that would likely affect whether you could open it to add ice, since it would probably overflow with the stock res sitting higher than it. The other thought I had was secondary core built into a custom charge pipe in front of the throttle body as a secondary cooler. You wouldn't have enough space for it to be the primary cooler, but it could take enough of the edge off the temps for the primary cooler to work effectively at higher HP levels. Looks like you could cram a Bell AW450025120 core in that space. Something like this: |
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