[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

. If I can find a reasonably low mileage 2011 E90 with RWD and 6MT I'd do that but these cars are scarce as hen's teeth. I need a 4 door or I'd find a 335is.

E90 M3 aren't that hard to find? And DCT is also pretty awesome...

I'm biased but I don't think you should dismiss the F80 M3 without a very thorough drive, and sampling one with basic mods (like stickier tires).

Maybe you should keep your car for commuting and get a Porsche for the weekends

[neckthrough]

Originally Posted by deznium

The F30 steering is just fine. I actually prefer it to the E90 series now that I am used to it.

It may be fine for you, and you may prefer it to the E90. You're clearly part of the demographic that BMW is targeting, so you're lucky. It's definitely not fine for me, so sucks to be me I guess.

Originally Posted by deznium

The car is more refined

Yes.

Originally Posted by deznium

and fun to drive.

No.

Originally Posted by deznium

The E90 had more feel but do you really need THAT much feel?

I do, absolutely.

Originally Posted by deznium

1. Smooth steering and decent feedback

It's smooth, but there's no feedback. The only time I can feel something coming through is under *heavy* braking, especially if the tires are slightly under-inflated. In those rare moments I feel like weeping tears of joy, it's like hearing your child talk for the first time. The fact that you consider the feedback "decent" indicates to me that you and I probably are referring to different phenomenon when we use the word "feedback".

Originally Posted by deznium

2. Amazing transmission
3. Amazing I6 Engine

No arguments there. The ZF8 and N55 are masterpieces. I only have a lowly N20, but I still love it despite the fact that it sounds like a diesel at cold start.

Originally Posted by deznium

4. Feels sporty

No.

Originally Posted by deznium

and comfy, easy for day to day driving

Yes.

Originally Posted by deznium

5. The car handles like a dream

No, but that's my fault because I bought an xdrive without an adaptive. I assume yours does have either the adaptive or Msport suspension, otherwise with the stupid base suspension the car handles like a Camry.

Originally Posted by deznium

And makes the E90 look dated...

Hell yes. Beauty is subjective, but to me the E90 was an eye-sore, especially before the LCI. The F30 is simply gorgeous.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

E90 M3 aren't that hard to find? And DCT is also pretty awesome...

I'm biased but I don't think you should dismiss the F80 M3 without a very thorough drive, and sampling one with basic mods (like stickier tires).

Maybe you should keep your car for commuting and get a Porsche for the weekends

Sorry if there is confusion. I'm not looking for an E90 M3.

Either you're confusing me with another poster or you are overestimating my budget.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Sorry if there is confusion. I'm not looking for an E90 M3.

Either you're confusing me with another poster or you are overestimating my budget.

That's what happened

By the way, I had an E90 328 6MT and I wouldn't got there again. I'd go all the way back to E36 M3 sedan + mods

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

That's what happened

By the way, I had an E90 328 6MT and I wouldn't got there again. I'd go all the way back to E36 M3 sedan + mods

Great idea but this car has to be my daily driver and I put on 20,000 miles/year.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Great idea but this car has to be my daily driver and I put on 20,000 miles/year.

Don't do any mods that are too extreme and it should be fine

Its not like the E36 used a high strung M motor, and the E90 can be just as basic from a comfort/convenience standpoint (at least, my manual seats, no navi E90 was pretty darn basic inside)

I used to do 20k/mi per year also (10k/mi on a ninja, 10k/mi in an '02 WRX wagon) so maybe my tolerance for lack of comforts and old interiors is unusually is high...

As an aside, the MRS has start to mention missing the light steering on HUD on her F30 335, so if the lease deals are great we might end up in with an F3X again (F30 340i?) in the future. I really do think the F3X is an amazing car IF you go in accepting BMW has backed off the sport to make it an ultimate commuting machine

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by crex

I don't buy it. If they could have, they would have done it for the M3 too.

I think they know what to do. When I put my car in Sport mode, the steering tightens up substantially. I suppose they could dial in whatever level of steering heft they choose. They clearly are not going for the 1% that thinks this is a problem. While most of those on this forum may believe its a problem, the members of this forum are collectively part of the 1% and not even all of them agree steering feel is a problem. I love the steering and feel of my 328i and I've been driving BMWs since 1988.

Flame away!

[neckthrough]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

I think they know what to do. When I put my car in Sport mode, the steering tightens up substantially. I suppose they could dial in whatever level of steering heft they choose. They clearly are not going for the 1% that thinks this is a problem. While most of those on this forum may believe its a problem, the members of this forum are collectively part of the 1% and not even all of them agree steering feel is a problem. I love the steering and feel of my 328i and I've been driving BMWs since 1988.

Flame away!

As has been mentioned multiple times, steering heft is NOT the same as feel or feedback. A Lotus has a very light steering but ungodly amounts of feedback.

I do agree with your belief that they have probably figured out how to get a reasonably close simulation of the response of a hydraulic rack. My guess is that some of it is real (e.g. using sensor inputs to estimate slip angles and use that to regulate the boost) and other parts fake (e.g. channeling chassis vibrations to emulate high-frequency responsiveness) but honestly I'll take anything over the video-game feel of my F30 (and a video game played without a good force feedback wheel).

[RPM1123]

I know it's the manual but that's a pretty horrid 5-60 time, V6 mustang territory

[buckybadger]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Yes. BMW's including the E90 have had legendary steering feel. When you are driving a curvy road enthusiastically the feedback from the tires is what is thrilling. Approaching the traction limit, tires chattering, feeling this through the steering wheel, driving nirvana.

Sure, please buy the BMW 235i or M3/M4 for those feelings. The product has evolved over time. This is expected in the industry (look at iPhone, laptops to smart phone, now from gasoline to electric cars etc.).

I still feel that F30 is excellent around corners.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by deznium

Sure, please buy the BMW 235i or M3/M4 for those feelings. The product has evolved over time. This is expected in the industry (look at iPhone, laptops to smart phone, now from gasoline to electric cars etc.).

I still feel that F30 is excellent around corners.

No thanks. The 3 series until the F3x has been the gold standard for a sporty sedan. Evolution is supposed to improve the product. We shouldn't have to move up to an M car to get good steering feel. The 2 series does not offer 4 doors. And yes my F30 handles well which has a great but doesn't communicate what's going on like its predecessors.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by neckthrough

As has been mentioned multiple times, steering heft is NOT the same as feel or feedback. A Lotus has a very light steering but ungodly amounts of feedback.

I do agree with your belief that they have probably figured out how to get a reasonably close simulation of the response of a hydraulic rack. My guess is that some of it is real (e.g. using sensor inputs to estimate slip angles and use that to regulate the boost) and other parts fake (e.g. channeling chassis vibrations to emulate high-frequency responsiveness) but honestly I'll take anything over the video-game feel of my F30 (and a video game played without a good force feedback wheel).

I've got m-sport (lower) and DHP and Dinan Shockware and I really don't have the level of complaints I hear from others about feel. I don't like the run flats and I'm taking care of that this week. I do agree the feel is not the same as my previous BMWs. Heck, my '88 528 I bought new two lifetimes ago in auto technology years had great feel and was an absolute blast to drive. I do get that the feel is not the same as before, its just not that far off to me with my specs to be concerned. When I get a loaner 328i without DHP I feel the difference for sure. Clearly, BMW could do more to make them drive like they used to without having to load up on options.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

No thanks. The 3 series until the F3x has been the gold standard for a sporty sedan. Evolution is supposed to improve the product. We shouldn't have to move up to an M car to get good steering feel. The 2 series does not offer 4 doors. And yes my F30 handles well which has a great but doesn't communicate what's going on like its predecessors.

Surely car evolution is influenced more than by simply the driving feel (steering, suspension). Perhaps BMW are more aware of how the market is evolving than the hard core enthusiasts are acknowledging. Do most BMW drivers want the feedback we read of on here, an enthusiasts site? I personally don't think they do, both from reading user reviews in the UK and what we have to cope with on our roads.

When the F30 was first released I was speaking with my dealer, long term BMW franchise and car enthusiast. His opinion, BMW had moved the 3-series on more in one move, than any previous generation. A much improved car and customers were receiving it well, due to that fact.

Users have different priorities these days and "the drive" (as such) isn't the highest priority. Has to be good, but not necessarily what many here would see as a "driver's car".

I see it from the UK perspective. We can't drive fast on the highway, speed controls, congestion, etc. Most BMWs will be used as daily drivers, either in urban environments or simply on the motorways where you just settle into the rhythm of the traffic flows anyway.

Motoring as we used to know it, no longer has the same appeal to many folks. Not even sure the younger generation view it the same as my generation did, seem more detached from the machine. The whole eco thing has influenced how many feel, cars have become the necessary nuisance, therefore cars become lifestyle accessories. Badges and brands are more essential than whether a car corners exceptionally well on the limit. The thought of 'reading' tyre slip is not even known about, let alone a factor the driver must know anything about.

What companies like BMW know well, these folks have money, give them what they want and sales are strong. Enthusiasts gripe on anyway, always do. Take the F30 and all the grumbles about the front styling, all the comments on the E90 being 'the' BMW. Even enthusiasts are now saying BMW had got the F3x styling pretty much right. BMW won't win if they listen to all opinions, simply aim to please the bigger market.

Seriously, how may BMW users even know (or care) what steering they have got fitted? It steers well, is precise, well weighted (yes is well weighted for the average 'driver') and is better than most other cars they'd be tempted to drive anyway.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Surely car evolution is influenced more than by simply the driving feel (steering, suspension). Perhaps BMW are more aware of how the market is evolving than the hard core enthusiasts are acknowledging. Do most BMW drivers want the feedback we read of on here, an enthusiasts site? I personally don't think they do, both from reading user reviews in the UK and what we have to cope with on our roads.

When the F30 was first released I was speaking with my dealer, long term BMW franchise and car enthusiast. His opinion, BMW had moved the 3-series on more in one move, than any previous generation. A much improved car and customers were receiving it well, due to that fact.

Users have different priorities these days and "the drive" (as such) isn't the highest priority. Has to be good, but not necessarily what many here would see as a "driver's car".

I see it from the UK perspective. We can't drive fast on the highway, speed controls, congestion, etc. Most BMWs will be used as daily drivers, either in urban environments or simply on the motorways where you just settle into the rhythm of the traffic flows anyway.

Motoring as we used to know it, no longer has the same appeal to many folks. Not even sure the younger generation view it the same as my generation did, seem more detached from the machine. The whole eco thing has influenced how many feel, cars have become the necessary nuisance, therefore cars become lifestyle accessories. Badges and brands are more essential than whether a car corners exceptionally well on the limit. The thought of 'reading' tyre slip is not even known about, let alone a factor the driver must know anything about.

What companies like BMW know well, these folks have money, give them what they want and sales are strong. Enthusiasts gripe on anyway, always do. Take the F30 and all the grumbles about the front styling, all the comments on the E90 being 'the' BMW. Even enthusiasts are now saying BMW had got the F3x styling pretty much right. BMW won't win if they listen to all opinions, simply aim to please the bigger market.

Seriously, how may BMW users even know (or care) what steering they have got fitted? It steers well, is precise, well weighted (yes is well weighted for the average 'driver') and is better than most other cars they'd be tempted to drive anyway.

These are all valid points. It's just sad that the 3 series is no longer the enthusiast's choice. However BMW is not alone. None of it's competitors even offer MT's in most of their cars and it looks like all of them are moving towards comfort and away from sport. But BMW still uses the Ultimate Driving Machine catch phrase which is becoming more and more of a joke. The Efficient Dynamics phrase is much more valid.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

These are all valid points. It's just sad that the 3 series is no longer the enthusiast's choice. However BMW is not alone. None of it's competitors even offer MT's in most of their cars and it looks like all of them are moving towards comfort and away from sport. But BMW still uses the Ultimate Driving Machine catch phrase which is becoming more and more of a joke. The Efficient Dynamics phrase is much more valid.

I'm not too sure how the US really see the BMW environmental credentials, forums can distort the general feeling. Posts on this forum often ridicule the idea of any fuel saving functions, as if it doesn't matter if you drive a BMW.

Not the same thinking in Europe. BMW is leading in recycling, water based paint systems, Efficient Dynamics, trimming of CO2 levels, etc. All these things are relevant and current, have an impact on user perception and influence the buying choice. All part of the 'good' brand image.

Even the M-cars are not exempt from the same considerations, the turbo engines being a prime example. Reducing fuel consumption is a major factor, more so than whether the end user cares or not. We may lament the loss of the NA engines, but we need to have compromises if we want the performance. Of course BMW engineers could still make V8 NA engines for the M3/4, but it just isn't in the brief anymore. I'm sure we will see a PHEV M-car, in the future. Makes so much sense to have a performance version, with an electric motor to get the full performance. The i8 gives us a feel for where we are heading. But the current hard core M-car user will be shouting "sacrilege". Not sure the next generation will be, I believe they will embrace the fact you have a smaller IC engine and can cruise around on, or have boost on demand with say a 150HP electric motor.

[paul e]

Originally Posted by DDD31

It annoys me that Germans are so stubborn sometimes (and I'm of German descent) and won't adopt the best systems because they didn't invent it. I wish BMW/Mercedes would adopt GM's Magnetorheological damper system which is a far superior system to the the auto damping systems currently used on German cars. It pains me to say it but BMW needs to steal some of GM's steering engineers so they can program BMW's current EPS.

Geez I could have written that myself. I'm even part German!

Also the folks,who are comparing the F30 to Camrys ought to get real. Or send me some of whatever they're smoking.

[LMK5]

Originally Posted by deznium

You guys need to get your cars checked. Are you kidding me?

The F30 steering is just fine. I actually prefer it to the E90 series now that I am used to it. The car is more refined and fun to drive. The E90 had more feel but do you really need THAT much feel?

I have got a few TSBs done, specifically for dashboard rattle and steering vibration. After those TSBs the car feels silky smooth and solid. All cars have issues. My E90 which I owned for 6 years had issues too but so far I think the F30 is WAY superior:
1. Smooth steering and decent feedback, which is enough for me
2. Amazing transmission
3. Amazing I6 Engine
4. Feels sporty and comfy, easy for day to day driving
5. The car handles like a dream, note: I have 19 inches

And makes the E90 look dated...

Can you mention the TSB numbers for the work you had done, especially for the steering vibration?

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Even the M-cars are not exempt from the same considerations, the turbo engines being a prime example. Reducing fuel consumption is a major factor, more so than whether the end user cares or not.

The i8 gives us a feel for where we are heading. But the current hard core M-car user will be shouting "sacrilege".

Don't lose sight of the fact that the S55 gives a big acceleration potential increase over the S65.

As for the comments about the F30, I completely understand where those are coming from, but unfortunately its misplaced expectations.

I had an E89 Z435, and went in expecting a Boxster S competitor when really it was meant to be a junior version of the Mercedes SL

We need to use the machine as intended, and have appropriate expectations...

EDIT: another idea for the steering feel, is to get the car coded to have auto start/stop to remember your last setting. My understanding is that this requires an update of all software to latest version, including steering. I did this and switch from the OEM continental 5P to OEM Bridgestone S001 and it helped to improve the feel on our '13 335 (rwd, option 704 suspension)

[metallicpea]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Surely car evolution is influenced more than by simply the driving feel (steering, suspension). Perhaps BMW are more aware of how the market is evolving than the hard core enthusiasts are acknowledging. Do most BMW drivers want the feedback we read of on here, an enthusiasts site? I personally don't think they do, both from reading user reviews in the UK and what we have to cope with on our roads.

When the F30 was first released I was speaking with my dealer, long term BMW franchise and car enthusiast. His opinion, BMW had moved the 3-series on more in one move, than any previous generation. A much improved car and customers were receiving it well, due to that fact.

Users have different priorities these days and "the drive" (as such) isn't the highest priority. Has to be good, but not necessarily what many here would see as a "driver's car".

I see it from the UK perspective. We can't drive fast on the highway, speed controls, congestion, etc. Most BMWs will be used as daily drivers, either in urban environments or simply on the motorways where you just settle into the rhythm of the traffic flows anyway.

Motoring as we used to know it, no longer has the same appeal to many folks. Not even sure the younger generation view it the same as my generation did, seem more detached from the machine. The whole eco thing has influenced how many feel, cars have become the necessary nuisance, therefore cars become lifestyle accessories. Badges and brands are more essential than whether a car corners exceptionally well on the limit. The thought of 'reading' tyre slip is not even known about, let alone a factor the driver must know anything about.

What companies like BMW know well, these folks have money, give them what they want and sales are strong. Enthusiasts gripe on anyway, always do. Take the F30 and all the grumbles about the front styling, all the comments on the E90 being 'the' BMW. Even enthusiasts are now saying BMW had got the F3x styling pretty much right. BMW won't win if they listen to all opinions, simply aim to please the bigger market.

Seriously, how may BMW users even know (or care) what steering they have got fitted? It steers well, is precise, well weighted (yes is well weighted for the average 'driver') and is better than most other cars they'd be tempted to drive anyway.

These ideas are valid, but I don't share them.

Seeing the BMW Ultimate Driving Machine as a real mission statement fall away is sad.

If we want a mass market luxury car, there are so many other options to choose from. BMW's history of design and commitment, combined with the enthusiast's admiration is what has made the BMW brand cool and desirable. Now it's that brand desirability that is diluting it. When the enthusiasts loose admiration for a brand, it's image changes. It is on it's way to become another competitor in the same sea with Lexus and Mercedes.

I hope BMW moving forward appreciates the values that have differentiated them and gotten them to where they are. They have been at a tipping point for a few years, and I am hopeful to see what happens over the next few. I really appreciate enthusiasts like C&D writing to keep BMW aware.

[BimmerBoomer]

Nothing happening here. After 23 years of driving BMWs it will be time for me to move on, likely in the 2018 model year.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by metallicpea

These ideas are valid, but I don't share them.

Seeing the BMW Ultimate Driving Machine as a real mission statement fall away is sad.

If we want a mass market luxury car, there are so many other options to choose from. BMW's history of design and commitment, combined with the enthusiast's admiration is what has made the BMW brand cool and desirable. Now it's that brand desirability that is diluting it. When the enthusiasts loose admiration for a brand, it's image changes. It is on it's way to become another competitor in the same sea with Lexus and Mercedes.

I hope BMW moving forward appreciates the values that have differentiated them and gotten them to where they are. They have been at a tipping point for a few years, and I am hopeful to see what happens over the next few. I really appreciate enthusiasts like C&D writing to keep BMW aware.

I don't disagree with you, I just observe the inevitable. BMW consciously moved into volume sales, (that decision is well documented), not a degree of exclusivity like the past, and a softening of driver focus in the mass market cars. M-cars and performance options I see as supposedly satisfying the enthusiast.

We are seeing massive discounting over here in the UK, (over 20% on many models), unheard of a few years back, residuals are falling, so almost following the business model of Ford, et al. Keeping the production at full capacity seems the driver these days.

[cncmastr]

Originally Posted by spuntyb

Why would the track handling package make any difference 0-60? Maybe slightly lighter wheels, but heavier brakes, and changes to the steering and suspension, and that's it. :

Don't forget going to aluminum calipers from iron saves weight. This is of course for the 328i, the 340i has the unpainted 4-pots up front.