[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by autopal

I'm disappointed we wont be seeing the M340i anytime soon. I still love my E90 335i, but its almost 6 years old now, time for a change. I never was a Mercedes fan, but i have to admit, this new C450 sounds very appealing. Right now, i'm leaning towards making a switch to MB. I've always love BMW, but the days of blind loyalty has gone

Who cares if it's an M340 or a 340.

You can still get a 340 and throw on M performance parts and PPK, and you'll then have an "M340".

[Blubaron79]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

Who cares if it's an M340 or a 340.

You can still get a 340 and throw on M performance parts and PPK, and you'll then have an "M340".

Exactly. You don't even know what the changes for the 340 are, and just because it's missing an 'M' badge? Please...

[Unklejoe]

I think people are paying too much attention to the rated torque specs of the trans.

That's usually controlled by software (line pressure, clamping force) rather than a real mechanical limit. Sure, the trans will physically explode at some torque, but that's far greater than the spec that ZF provides.

People have pushed 500+ ft*lbs through the 6HP21 which is rated similarly.

Also, it is possible for BMW to maintain the same torque while still increasing HP by playing with the boost curve.

Or maybe they will use a revised version of the trans kind of like the 6HP19 vs 6HP21.

[autopal]

Originally Posted by Blubaron79

Exactly. You don't even know what the changes for the 340 are, and just because it's missing an 'M' badge? Please...

Whilst power is important to me, it's not the only consideration. That torque curve of the C450, promises a scintillating midrange punch, and the C450 seems to have an impressive list of standard features, lifted straight from the C63, including a AMG sports exhaust. Off course, I'll reserve judgement until I get a chance to test drive. The interior, though, is what sets it apart, it is staggering good! I didn't think I'd be considering any car with a V6, having been exposed to BMW's silky smooth inline 6 for so long, but I have to admit, it's tough!

[xlover]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

Who cares if it's an M340 or a 340.

You can still get a 340 and throw on M performance parts and PPK, and you'll then have an "M340".

The key in my mind for an M340/M440 is being able to get the RWD lowered sport suspension with xdrive like comes standard on the M235 Xdrive. Any other way to do it would require aftermarket modifications to the suspension which I (and many others) have no interest in. Along with the other m performance upgrades (MPPK, M sport brakes, and MPE) in a nice easy to order package

I honestly wouldnt care if the M badge was on the back if they offered an M performance package in the options list that ticked most of the boxes..... key is the suspension though

[autopal]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

Who cares if it's an M340 or a 340.

You can still get a 340 and throw on M performance parts and PPK, and you'll then have an "M340".

If you don't think it's a good idea to, at the very least, check out the competition, that is just blind loyalty

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by autopal

Whilst power is important to me, it's not the only consideration. That torque curve of the C450, promises a scintillating midrange punch, and the C450 seems to have an impressive list of standard features, lifted straight from the C63, including a AMG sports exhaust. Off course, I'll reserve judgement until I get a chance to test drive. The interior, though, is what sets it apart, it is staggering good! I didn't think I'd be considering any car with a V6, having been exposed to BMW's silky smooth inline 6 for so long, but I have to admit, it's tough!

The current 335 runs with, in fact I think beats, the C450 if we are talking performance. So the 340 will only up the anti. You can toss plenty of M performance parts including exhausts onto the 335.

I personally love BMW's interiors, but MB does tend to have a luxurious approach that is welcomed by many, and that is totally up to the buyer's taste.

Originally Posted by xlover

The key in my mind for an M340/M440 is being able to get the RWD lowered sport suspension with xdrive like comes standard on the M235 Xdrive. Any other way to do it would require aftermarket modifications to the suspension which I (and many others) have no interest in. Along with the other m performance upgrades (MPPK, M sport brakes, and MPE) in a nice easy to order package

The M235 has adaptive M suspension, which is available in DHP on the 335. I'm not familiar with there being a difference here, other than the M235 coming with it standard. And BMW has just built the cost of the package into the MSRP of the M235. Unless the M235 adaptive M suspension is somehow very different from the 335 adaptive M suspension, which I wouldn't conclude based off of reading BMW's materials, and haven't read by M235 owners.

Originally Posted by autopal

If you don't think it's a good idea to, at the very least, check out the competition, that is just blind loyalty

When did I ever say I don't check out the competition? I was simply responding to someone complaining that there will be no "M340". How that relates to the C450 is beyond me, since it's not as if the C450 has adopted an AMG nomenclature compared to the other C models ... so why does the 340 need the "M" badge to be on the C450's level? It already will be.

[autopal]

[QUOTE=dwalls90;17269605]The current 335 runs with, in fact I think beats, the C450 if we are talking performance. So the 340 will only up the anti. You can toss plenty of M performance parts including exhausts onto the 335.

What are you talking about? The C450 has not been released yet, or driven by anyone!

[xlover]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

The M235 has adaptive M suspension, which is available in DHP on the 335. I'm not familiar with there being a difference here, other than the M235 coming with it standard. And BMW has just built the cost of the package into the MSRP of the M235. Unless the M235 adaptive M suspension is somehow very different from the 335 adaptive M suspension, which I wouldn't conclude based off of reading BMW's materials, and haven't read by M235 owners.

Adaptive M suspension on the 3 and 4 series only changes the dampeners but retains the higher ride height xdrive springs. on the M235 xdrive the suspension is the same ride height as the M235 RWD.

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by autopal

The current 335 runs with, in fact I think beats, the C450 if we are talking performance. So the 340 will only up the anti. You can toss plenty of M performance parts including exhausts onto the 335.

What are you talking about? The C450 has not been released yet, or driven by anyone!

0-60 times have already been documented for the C450. And I highly doubt a lesser powered MB is going to beat a BMW around the track, especially not if in a straight line.

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by xlover

Adaptive M suspension on the 3 and 4 series only changes the dampeners but retains the higher ride height xdrive springs. on the M235 xdrive the suspension is the same ride height as the M235 RWD.

I thought DHP on the 3 and 4 series also lowered the vehicle, as the suspension geometry of xDrive with DHP is quite different than regular xDrive. I can assure you that more than just the dampeners are changed with the DHP option.

I can see where the xDrive 3/4 series with DHP is higher than the RWD 3/4 series, so I suppose that's one "loss" of not having an M340. This was probably considered immaterial in the eyes of BMW.

[autopal]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

0-60 times have already been documented for the C450. And I highly doubt a lesser powered MB is going to beat a BMW around the track, especially not if in a straight line.

Lesser powered? 362hp and 384 ft lbs torque? How is that lesser than the 335i?
Even with the M power kit? All the Germans underestimate their power and accelaration numbers. Pay no attention to MB 4.9 sec estimate.
I'm a BMW fan here man, BMW's is all I've driven for the last 7 years, but i'm struggling to understanding your numbers and assumptions

[300hp]

Originally Posted by autopal

Lesser powered? 362hp and 384 ft lbs torque? How is that lesser than the 335i?
Even with the M power kit? All the Germans underestimate their power and accelaration numbers. Pay no attention to MB 4.9 sec estimate.
I'm a BMW fan here man, BMW's is all I've driven for the last 7 years, but i'm struggling to understanding your numbers and assumptions

+1

At least consider that MB quotes the C400 at 5.2. It's since tested at 4.7 and 13.1@107

335i without PPK 4.7 and 13.3@103mph
335i with 20hp ppk 4.4 and 13@105

Granted the C400 loses to 60 but clearly once in motion its a no brainer that the C400 will dominate the 335i with the 20hp ppk and may just be even with the 35hp ppk.

The C450 will dominate everyone

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by 300hp

+1

At least consider that MB quotes the C400 at 5.2. It's since tested at 4.7 and 13.1@107

335i without PPK 4.7 and 13.3@103mph
335i with 20hp ppk B]4.4[/B] and 13@105

Granted the C400 loses to 60 but clearly once in motion its a no brainer that the C400 will dominate the 335i with the 20hp ppk and may just be even with the 35hp ppk.

The C450 will dominate everyone

0-60 times can depend on many things, but this is quoting the C450 at only 4.9 secs.

If the C450 doesn't slaughter the current 335 PPK, then with a 20-30HP bolster with the 340 and a PPK, the 340 should still maintain an edge against the C450 I think.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

0-60 times can depend on many things, but this is quoting the C450 at only 4.9 secs.

If the C450 doesn't slaughter the current 335 PPK, then with a 20-30HP bolster with the 340 and a PPK, the 340 should still maintain an edge against the C450 I think.

The 4.9 you are referring to is coming from Mercedes, no one has tested the C450 yet so no one knows how it will play out.

If you believe the C450 is a 4.9s car to 60 so be it.

[autopal]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

0-60 times can depend on many things, but this is quoting the C450 at only 4.9 secs.

If the C450 doesn't slaughter the current 335 PPK, then with a 20-30HP bolster with the 340 and a PPK, the 340 should still maintain an edge against the C450 I think.

I don't know what you meant by " the 340 should still maintain an edge against the C450". There is presently no "edge" my friend, the C450 is brand new.
Any numbers now are just speculation, but looking on the specs of the C450, a rear biased AWD (67/33), and the DNA of AMG, it's a safe assumption that this car will be a riot.
It's actually a lot closer to the full blown C63 than the 335 with PPK is to the M3. That is not to say the upcoming 340i wont be great, but looking at the total package, especially including the S class interior, I think the C450 may very well take over as the benchmark in this small segment.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

The M235 has adaptive M suspension, which is available in DHP on the 335. I'm not familiar with there being a difference here, other than the M235 coming with it standard. And BMW has just built the cost of the package into the MSRP of the M235. Unless the M235 adaptive M suspension is somehow very different from the 335 adaptive M suspension, which I wouldn't conclude based off of reading BMW's materials, and haven't read by M235 owners.

Not to nitpick, but the M235 also comes with Michelin PSS tires, upgraded forged camshaft, and revised cooling, which aren't available as options/packages on the F3x. But for the most part, you are correct, and you could add all the available packages (M-sport, DHP, M-sport brakes, MPE, MPPK, etc), and spend another $1k or so for better tires to build your own version of an "M335i".

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by 34.50

I think they'll make improvements to the transmission in the new 340i to accomodate more power.

nope, same transmission was announced. 320, 340MPPK, moot points. Torque/power are the new metrics, how much can these turbos deliver when opening up the throttle. The more efficient, the more torque even at low RPM. No doubt, BMW will try to match the competition.

0-60 also interesting, I did 4.8 0-60 and 5.1 0-62. Winter tires. 1C. Cold wet slippery road. No launch control. Cannot wait for summers, my car was not broken in last summer to push it.

I suspect some areas of the 340 base bring it in line with M Performance (perhaps the suspension tuneups?) The base 335i was just too soft. And heavily criticized for it.

Also the base 335 was ugly. When compared to the M design (M3/M Performance), heavily criticized by Top Gear and many others.

The M Performance had another problem, as pointed out in other forums, it has been heavily confused for M series just about by everyone- even at a BMW dealership, unless examining it carefully for fenders, mirror caps or quad pipes. I stopped answering people the "Which M is it?" question. To Florian Nisl (M / M Perf designer) the difference is obvious. But not to 99% of people out there, not at first glance. And the 4 series with its vents also adds to the illusion. Am not at all surprised that BMW is moving for a better delineation of the lineups, and why no M Performance is announced right now.

In theory, the future M3/M4 and i8//I9 will be clearly delineated. But look at the current fragmentation BMW offers:

M2 (coming)
M235
328i
328i M Performance Exhaust, Power kit,
335i
335i M Sport
335i M Performance with Adaptive M
435i
435i M Performance
M3/M4 - no Adaptive M in base. ???lol

Takes 100+ hrs of studying- or nearly 12 university credits worth- to figure out the difference. Caught a BMW tech unable to list these differences. Sounds like the fragmentation of the Android OS.

What BMW should have (perhaps) is fol:

2 / 2S(port)
3 / 3S / Alpina
4 / 4S / Alpina
5 / 5S / Alpina
6 / 6S / 6gt / Alpina
M2 / M2 GT
M3 / M3 GT
M4 etc


it is as if BMW is not compromising quality, but making changes so rapid it does not take the time to refine a kick ass 3/4/5 frame, and each incremental change introduces changes that leave drivers wondering like these post. This is a cycle electronic companies like Samsung get caught in, frequently updating lineups hoping to stay ahead of a perception and competition game. Porsche does not do that. Unsure why BMW is so eager, maybe that 9% target growth they keep talking about?

Anyways, I bet the 3/4/5 M series will be drastically redone 10 years from now, and for the better. More carbon fibre, less weight, more torque. They are investing too heavily in these new technologies (billions) and it can only be a future long term outlook.

[34.50]

Originally Posted by Musashi

nope, same transmission was announced. 320, 340MPPK, moot points. Torque/power are the new metrics, how much can these turbos deliver when opening up the throttle. The more efficient, the more torque even at low RPM. No doubt, BMW will try to match the competition.

I must have missed this announcement of the LCI and details of engine/turbos/transmission. Got proof to back this up?

Originally Posted by Musashi

In theory, the future M3/M4 and i8//I9 will be clearly delineated. But look at the current fragmentation BMW offers:

M2 (coming)
M235
328i
328i M Performance Exhaust, Power kit,
335i
335i M Sport
335i M Performance with Adaptive M
435i
435i M Performance
M3/M4 - no Adaptive M in base. ???lol

Takes 100+ hrs of studying- or nearly 12 university credits worth- to figure out the difference. Caught a BMW tech unable to list these differences. Sounds like the fragmentation of the Android OS.

What BMW should have (perhaps) is fol:

2 / 2S(port)
3 / 3S / Alpina
4 / 4S / Alpina
5 / 5S / Alpina
6 / 6S / 6gt / Alpina
M2 / M2 GT
M3 / M3 GT
M4 etc

Wow, it doesn't take 100+ hours of studying to understand BMW's structure. Just do some quick research, and in the US market we have:
320i
328i/328d
335i
AH3
M3

That's it. The 320i/328i/335i can be had with xDrive, and can also be had in lines (M-Sport, Sport Line, or Luxury Line). You can also get different body styles (wagon, or GT). It's really not that difficult - takes all of 5 minutes to research and learn. If you want to add MPPK, or MPE, those are all additional performance options, which 95% of the consumers won't even know/care about.

For me, your structure is worse, and by far more confusing. I like the options available to us. You can really build out a car to your needs.

[RAV]

The below is from an article in Popular Mechanics. As you can read, very little is required to change the torque load since the transmission is so modular.

According to Johnson, the 8HP has fewer parts than the company's previous 6HP six-speed automatic and still fits in the same packaging. That means manufacturers need to make only minimal changes to adapt the 8HP to existing powertrains and need not worry about major structural issues. ZF works most closely with automakers on the software side, adjusting the transmission's electronic calibration for things such as shift strategy and the speed of the gearshifts.

But the options on the 8HP go beyond software programming. Different internal clutch packs can be used depending on a manufacturer's specific torque requirements. The transmission has a range of 221 lb-ft to a massive 738 lb-ft, but most applications land between 330 and 550 lb-ft. Further available add-ons include a power takeoff for all-wheel drive, an engine stop/start system, or even a 47-hp electric motor in place of the torque converter for hybrid vehicles.

[RAV]

The below is from an article from Popular Mechanics. You can read that is very easy to upgrade the torque load of this transmission due to the modular nature of the design.


According to Johnson, the 8HP has fewer parts than the company's previous 6HP six-speed automatic and still fits in the same packaghating. That means manufacturers need to make only minimal changes to adapt the 8HP to existing powertrains and need not worry about major structural issues. ZF works most closely with automakers on the software side, adjusting the transmission's electronic calibration for things such as shift strategy and the speed of the gearshifts.

But the options on the 8HP go beyond software programming. Different internal clutch packs can be used depending on a manufacturer's specific torque requirements. The transmission has a range of 221 lb-ft to a massive 738 lb-ft, but most applications land between 330 and 550 lb-ft. Further available add-ons include a power takeoff for all-wheel drive, an engine stop/start system, or even a 47-hp electric motor in place of the torque converter for hybrid vehicles.

[yemenmocha]

is there an official word on whether there will be a PPK option with the 340?