[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

I canceled our Model 3 order about 1 week before delivery when the SR+ became available for similar reasons. Tesla have been taking massive profits from their cars ever since the company became 'sustainable'.

At $70k the Model S had 30% margins back in 2015, that's a car with far more complex construction than the 3, aluminium chassis, Mercedes parts for touch points+suspension, unbranded Brembo brakes.

A Model 3 even at £40k is massive margins for Tesla, let alone at £60k for top spec one now.

I like to try new stuff, but I also like 'value', Tesla products don't offer value at present.

We will see how those margins hold up with more factories to run and product to shift.

I don’t think they’ve ever offered value, not in the time I’ve been paying close attention.

Even at £53k a MY LR is a ridiculously de-contented product versus the equivalent Ioniq 5, Enyaq or EV6. The RWD is reasonable.

There’s things Tesla do well, efficiency, performance and practicality, plus availability of cars. Unless you need one of those things, why not buy a competitor?

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Even at £53k a MY LR is a ridiculously de-contented product versus the equivalent Ioniq 5,

A MY is M3 with raised suspension (though I suspect the same acutal suspension parts). Even the seats on the MY are just M3 seats literally on a plank.

The M3 was originally convinced as a sub $35k car, Tesla have alot of room to cut prices.

[Sennen]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Just bear in mind even with current price drops a LR 3 costs MORE now than it did in 2021. There is also HW4.0 AP coming for certain this year. I wouldn't buy any Tesla right now.
.

I wouldn't buy a Tesla at any time

I find the looks off putting at best and the interior is frankly a disgrace.

If a gun was put to my head today I would opt for a Taycan but hoping to get a few IC purchases in before I look down the EV route.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

A MY is M3 with raised suspension (though I suspect the same acutal suspension parts). Even the seats on the MY are just M3 seats literally on a plank.

The M3 was originally convinced as a sub $35k car, Tesla have alot of room to cut prices.

Ummm. There might be one or two other differences. I don’t think anyone is in any doubt of the similarities between M3 and MY though.

$35k was just marketing BS as usual. Just as it was conceived as a robotaxi and FSD would be working by, what, 2019.

There are healthy margins, they’ve just taken a huge haircut. Let’s see how the 2022 financials look and then see how bleak 2023 looks with zero order backlog to get them through.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Sennen

I wouldn't buy a Tesla at any time

I find the looks off putting at best and the interior is frankly a disgrace.

If a gun was put to my head today I would opt for a Taycan but hoping to get a few IC purchases in before I look down the EV route.

Honestly, coming from a reasonably-specced 440i and a loaded Discovery, the interior is fine. The actual material quality is ok.

Now, the touchscreen is a mess. It’s not about having to do everything on a touchscreen (although that’s not ideal), it’s that the UI is dreadfully designed for using when driving.

The outside is dull, but it’s the lack of detailing rather than the overall shape that I find disappointing.

[Scoobyd]

Have to admit I looked at the figures a bit more closely yesterday and came to the conclusion it would likely cost me an extra £280 ish a month more than it costs me now to run my current car to get in a new Model Y Long Range. Which when seen like that does make you stroke your chin in thought…

But then I considered what most of the guys on here who now run one have shared and fed back, both good and bad, and know that it’s not really a car I want in the here and now. An electric car is going to be in all our futures one day so, for me, I’d rather enjoy another ICE car before that day comes.

Something with the B58 and ZF8 speed I’d imagine. The X3 M40i I’ve always had a hankering for. Just sadly won’t get into one of those for £280 extra!!

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Yes, this is the reason. There is a big mismatch between current demand and 2023 production numbers. They’ve also missed out on five door Model Ys getting the new US EV tax credits, which will harm sales. SUVs have a $80k price limit to qualify but sedans only $55k. The 5 seat model Y has been classified as a sedan, and the 7 seat as an SUV. It’s not going to help sales as much as anticipated.

That aged fast.

They actually cut the MY LR (which is the cheapest in the US) from $65990 to $52990. Bringing it under the tax credit limit. So $45490 with the credit. That makes a Model Y $20k cheaper than one month ago. That’s gotta sting if you just took delivery in December.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Scoobyd

Have to admit I looked at the figures a bit more closely yesterday and came to the conclusion it would likely cost me an extra £280 ish a month more than it costs me now to run my current car to get in a new Model Y Long Range. Which when seen like that does make you stroke your chin in thought…

But then I considered what most of the guys on here who now run one have shared and fed back, both good and bad, and know that it’s not really a car I want in the here and now. An electric car is going to be in all our futures one day so, for me, I’d rather enjoy another ICE car before that day comes.

Something with the B58 and ZF8 speed I’d imagine. The X3 M40i I’ve always had a hankering for. Just sadly won’t get into one of those for £280 extra!!

As an ex-B58 owner I would say drive an EV or two first, including a MY/M3 before committing. I’m pretty honest about the good and bad of the Tesla, but I wouldn’t swap it for a X3. Your priorities and tastes may differ from mine, of course.

[Scoobyd]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

As an ex-B58 owner I would say drive an EV or two first, including a MY/M3 before committing. I’m pretty honest about the good and bad of the Tesla, but I wouldn’t swap it for a X3. Your priorities and tastes may differ from mine, of course.

It’s actually your feedback more than most that’s had me think it’s really not for me right now! A car I see as a tech car first and foremost seems to have its biggest failings in the tech… that would frustrate me!

I’ve had a good few drives in a Model 3 as a friend has one. It’s a very good drive I think. He came from a 535d Sport and wouldn’t go back for what it’s worth.

But for me, I still love the sound of an engine, the engagement it gives, it’s a big part of the enjoyment of driving. I still smile every time I hear my straight six… I still wind down my window if I’m near a performance car of note so I can hear the engine/exhaust… so I guess I’m just not quite ready to sanitise that side of the car ownership experience. As you’ve said before yourself, it’s different strokes for different folks as to how we feel a car appeals to us. I mean your heart still lives on in the Disco a little it’s clear but equally don’t get the impression you’d swap back or feel regret.

[robbiep]

So, the really big question :

What will the Tesla price cuts do to all the other EV offerings and their prices, both new and used ?

A lot of other manufacturers seem to have priced themselves up into a 'premium' bracket comparable to the Mod3, (Kia EV6 at up to £58k, anyone ?)

The BMW i4 eDrive40, at just under £52k, was almost identical in price to the base Mod3 (£51,090), and that's cut the floor right out from under that pricing.

Same for used EV pricing ? We've been considering a change for one of our cars to go to EV, but the prices have seemed to be way too high for our liking, so not made any move as yet.

With any luck for us, this will pull new and used EV prices down across the board

[Sennen]

Originally Posted by Scoobyd

It’s actually your feedback more than most that’s had me think it’s really not for me right now! A car I see as a tech car first and foremost seems to have its biggest failings in the tech… that would frustrate me!

I’ve had a good few drives in a Model 3 as a friend has one. It’s a very good drive I think. He came from a 535d Sport and wouldn’t go back for what it’s worth.

But for me, I still love the sound of an engine, the engagement it gives, it’s a big part of the enjoyment of driving. I still smile every time I hear my straight six… I still wind down my window if I’m near a performance car of note so I can hear the engine/exhaust… so I guess I’m just not quite ready to sanitise that side of the car ownership experience. As you’ve said before yourself, it’s different strokes for different folks as to how we feel a car appeals to us. I mean your heart still lives on in the Disco a little it’s clear but equally don’t get the impression you’d swap back or feel regret.

Exactly how I feel too.

I am just watching Vanishing Point on Talking Pictures and I just don't think it would have the same impact with a Tesla whooshing about

Give me screaming 4 pot Duratec, the smooth mellifluous note of a 6 pot or better still the deep guttural burble of a V8 in a Dodge Challenger, heaven

[dopper99]

Originally Posted by Sennen

The more I delve into EVs the less attractive they become........

Indeed.

Harrys latest vid is a very interesting take on EVs at this moment in time. Harry talks a lot of sense.

(Although those with EVs may not agree. )

[Sennen]

Originally Posted by dopper99

Indeed.

Harrys latest vid is a very interesting take on EVs at this moment in time. Harry talks a lot of sense.

(Although those with EVs may not agree. )

Very interesting and he mirrors my thoughts on virtually every issue.

On Price which is going to be the main issue for most.......if the Government wants to get the average private buyer into EV lets look at a typical car they may buy.

Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 GS Line Petrol ... £19,590
Vauxhall Corsa GS Line 50KWH EV.... £29,305

Nigh on a 10k purchase differential but lets say Mr Average keeps the car for 3 years so at 47% residuals on the petrol the retained value will be £9200. The EV version at 50% will be worth £14,650. (What car Figures)

Thats a differential of £4,260 over 3 year or £1,420 per annum.

Lets assume the Petrol car is doing 50MPG and the EV is costing 6p per mile to charge at home 90% of time and 10p per mile away from home 10% of time.

If my calculations are correct (I am open to scrutiny) over 8,000 miles per annum (average type usage) the Petrol Corsa is costing £ 1,100 in fuel per annum and the EV is costing £512 per annum.

We therefore have a differential of £588 pa in the EVs favour.

Lets not forget servicing, insurance and road tax.......... my finger in the air figures (based on my insurance findings) would indicate the insurance savings on the Petrol Corsa may negate the extra cost of the Tax and Servicing on an EV Corsa but lets be generous and give the EV a £100 pa advantage.

On the above figures that makes the Petrol Corsa £732 per annum cheaper to run than the equivalent EV version.

Not a great deal to many on here but for the average guy on the street that is not insignificant.

Yes I think the 'The Powers That Be' have a long way to go before the masses are going to go EV, and unfortunately (or not unfortunately, depending on your green agenda) many are going to be forced out of car ownership over the next 15 years.

[JustChris]

All pretty good Sennen. I would say the EV servicing is probably much less. I think it’s tyres wiper blades and inspection mostly.

[MashinBenzin]

Scoobyd I thought it might be my feedback 😂

I’ll expand on what I don’t like:

- autopilot. I do like these systems on the motorway, particularly on my commute which is long enough (30 miles of M4) to benefit from automation but short enough that speed makes negligible difference to journey time. It’s the urban bit at either end that varies the journey time. So, automation on, podcast on, enjoy. I haven’t paid for EAP (extended autopilot) at £3.4k, which means the system disengages with a bong and usually a jerk with every single lane change. And the needs a press of a stalk to reengage. This can be dozens of times a journey. The good systems allow you to indicate and move lane and then they reengage and lane centre in the next lane. The Land Rover did this.
I dislike the way autopilot works for this specific reason, which might not bother people that don’t use it. But certainly don’t believe the autopilot hype, it’s inferior to what Land Rover and BMW do and probably everyone else.

- the UI. This is short and simple. The ‘buttons’ are simply too small. Longer version: The ‘back’ button on Tidal (music) for instance is probably no bigger than the send button on this bimmerpost app. Ridiculous for something to aim for in a moving car. Almost everything you need is like this. The way around it partially is to hold the edge of the screen to steady your hand in the moving car. That nice large screen is largely a mixture of clutter and wasted real estate. Professional UI designers have slaughtered it over on the Tesla forum, far more eloquently than I can.

People that rave about Tesla’s tech and screen etc. probably haven’t dailied anything made in the last half decade. Someone dismissively slated his old Merc’s 3” screen as a comparison. Could be a 20 year old car but more likely a typical Tesla fanboy writing for the audience.

On the positives - the instant throttle response and linearity of power delivery is brilliant. Whilst I like the noise of some cars, and a 60s muscle car would be tempting, I wouldn’t swap electric for any of the modern cars’ sounds.

I try not to compare with the Disco too much beyond the tech (which feels fair) as it’s better in almost every non-drivetrain way and came from a different league. The 2016 440i is a fair comparison i think, same category but ICE. The Tesla is better in pretty much every way for me and certainly in the driving experience - it’s a far more capable and rewarding drive.

You’re right that I wouldn’t go back to the D5, subjectively better though it is, as EV is just so much more suited to my life and usage.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by dopper99

Indeed.

Harrys latest vid is a very interesting take on EVs at this moment in time. Harry talks a lot of sense.

(Although those with EVs may not agree. )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCywUzKJs30

I watched that the other day I think. Prefacing this by saying that I think Harry is a quality journalist, with great knowledge and presents that well.

On the EVs, to me he seemed a little out of touch with what might be the experience of most owners and therefore a little more negative than needed. I think it was because of his usage - having to stay within x range of the farm, which seemed to imply a majority of fairly high mileage days.

That said, he can only speak as he finds. He’s right that the charging network is an issue if your daily usage involves a chunk of miles.

If most of your journeys are below 200 miles on motorways (or longer if off motorways), a 300-mile EV is really no issue. The benefits start to outweigh the negatives.

[G50]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Scoobyd I thought it might be my feedback 😂

I’ll expand on what I don’t like:

- autopilot. I do like these systems on the motorway, particularly on my commute which is long enough (30 miles of M4) to benefit from automation but short enough that speed makes negligible difference to journey time. It’s the urban bit at either end that varies the journey time. So, automation on, podcast on, enjoy. I haven’t paid for EAP (extended autopilot) at £3.4k, which means the system disengages with a bong and usually a jerk with every single lane change. And the needs a press of a stalk to reengage. This can be dozens of times a journey. The good systems allow you to indicate and move lane and then they reengage and lane centre in the next lane. The Land Rover did this.
I dislike the way autopilot works for this specific reason, which might not bother people that don’t use it. But certainly don’t believe the autopilot hype, it’s inferior to what Land Rover and BMW do and probably everyone else.

- the UI. This is short and simple. The ‘buttons’ are simply too small. Longer version: The ‘back’ button on Tidal (music) for instance is probably no bigger than the send button on this bimmerpost app. Ridiculous for something to aim for in a moving car. Almost everything you need is like this. The way around it partially is to hold the edge of the screen to steady your hand in the moving car. That nice large screen is largely a mixture of clutter and wasted real estate. Professional UI designers have slaughtered it over on the Tesla forum, far more eloquently [...]

Sometimes I compare the way my G31 drives and handles to my F31 and think that it's a better driving experience, but 1) it's subjective, better for me is not what other people would think is better, and 2) I remember that I got rid of the F31 in 2020, how can I accurately remember a "driving experience" from 3 years ago, to be able to compare to what I experience today?

It's also a car that came out 11 years ago and isn't a fair comparison to anything that is being sold today imo, especially if said car came with Bridgestone runflats.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Sennen

Very interesting and he mirrors my thoughts on virtually every issue.

On Price which is going to be the main issue for most.......if the Government wants to get the average private buyer into EV lets look at a typical car they may buy.

Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 GS Line Petrol ... £19,590
Vauxhall Corsa GS Line 50KWH EV.... £29,305

Nigh on a 10k purchase differential but lets say Mr Average keeps the car for 3 years so at 47% residuals on the petrol the retained value will be £9200. The EV version at 50% will be worth £14,650. (What car Figures)

Thats a differential of £4,260 over 3 year or £1,420 per annum.

Lets assume the Petrol car is doing 50MPG and the EV is costing 6p per mile to charge at home 90% of time and 10p per mile away from home 10% of time.

If my calculations are correct (I am open to scrutiny) over 8,000 miles per annum (average type usage) the Petrol Corsa is costing £ 1,100 in fuel per annum and the EV is costing £512 per annum.

We therefore have a differential of £588 pa in the EVs favour.

Lets not forget servicing, insurance and road tax.......... my finger in the air figures (based on my insurance findings) would indicate the insurance savings on the Petrol Corsa may negate the extra cost of the Tax and Servicing on an EV Corsa but lets be generous and give the EV a £100 pa advantage.

On the above figures that makes the Petrol Corsa £732 per annum cheaper to run than the equivalent EV version.

Not a great deal to many on here but for the average guy on the street that is not insignificant.

Yes I think the 'The Powers That Be' have a long way to go before the masses are going to go EV, and unfortunately (or not unfortunately, depending on your green agenda) many are going to be forced out of car ownership over the next 15 years.

As usual Harry talks a lot of sense and many ways he's a man after my own heart with a lot of this.

I do think he's right to highlight the environmental cost of manufacturing new cars - and especially EV's - and he's also right when he says modern cars last a long time if they're serviced correctly. The reality is a lot of us (including me!) have bought a new car just because we wanted to rather than because we really needed to but from an environmental perspective perhaps that needs to change going forward? With our existing cars the intention is to run them to 100k miles each - which will mean keeping mine for 10 years or more at my current annual mileage - so we'll see how we get on with that!

Mind you, I would just say that in Harry's case it's easy to point to vehicles he and his family are using that are quite old when he's probably getting a new demo car to assess almost every month and has literally got his own personal fleet to choose from in his barn!

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by G50

Sometimes I compare the way my G31 drives and handles to my F31 and think that it's a better driving experience, but 1) it's subjective, better for me is not what other people would think is better, and 2) I remember that I got rid of the F31 in 2020, how can I accurately remember a "driving experience" from 3 years ago, to be able to compare to what I experience today?

It's also a car that came out 11 years ago and isn't a fair comparison to anything that is being sold today imo, especially if said car came with Bridgestone runflats.

I had a 335d. I have test driven a friends g20 330d and the improvement in interior quality and suspension comfort was on a different level from the F to the G. Getting back in the g05 I felt the g20 was 80% the comfort of the g05.

[isleaiw1]

I am using my EV all wrong, I use the Mini for station, supermarket etc and most times I drive the iPace I am going on a motorway! But it really isn't an issue. My 300 plus mike weekend away will need charge to get home. I am going to supermarket shortly, it can go on charge there whilst I get some shopping for 40 mins or so. If that is busy, I will go to plan B or C.

I occasionally miss the noise of the RS4 or M5 but to be honest not as often as I am glad that my current car doesn't attract the attention...

I am OK with the touchscreen, some of the menus are a bit odd still but I am learning.

I think JLR are very optimistic with pricing of it and I certainly wouldn't have bought it new - but it felt like a bargain at 15 months old v new price of a model Y. If I was buying now the reduced price of the Y might have tempted me the other way - but probably not....

Will others react to the Tesla price drop? Not if they meant the story about reducing volumes and maintaining margin.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by robbiep

So, the really big question :

What will the Tesla price cuts do to all the other EV offerings and their prices, both new and used ?

A lot of other manufacturers seem to have priced themselves up into a 'premium' bracket comparable to the Mod3, (Kia EV6 at up to £58k, anyone ?)

The BMW i4 eDrive40, at just under £52k, was almost identical in price to the base Mod3 (£51,090), and that's cut the floor right out from under that pricing.

Same for used EV pricing ? We've been considering a change for one of our cars to go to EV, but the prices have seemed to be way too high for our liking, so not made any move as yet.

With any luck for us, this will pull new and used EV prices down across the board

Good point..
There is already data out there that ev's are depreciating like a stone even before the Tesla effect which will percolate through in the next few months.


https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publ...ecember/277277

Spoiler

The number one spot is not occupied by Tesla.

[Tengocity]

I’m following the discussion closely. I feel that with 3 cars one really ought to be an electric one. My challenge is that we really need something like the Discovery, a big proper spacious 4x4, and I really want to keep a proper sports car. The X3 is the do it all in the middle, that I use for work, airport, supermarket trips. It could be swapped for a MY, and that would give us much the same practicality, utility and performance, but at much less running costs. The issue is this range thing, as this is the car that we would most likely use for a longer trip down south. The superchargers make it feasible, if a bit of a hassle occasionally.
I should really sit down and do the numbers properly.