[Danj94]

I know this is sort of covered on this forum in multiple places but I just cant get my head around this after "discovering" today... I was just browsing AT on my break at work. My 440i is mapped make between 420-440BHP but previous comes stock at about 326bhp, gets me 35-40mpg on my commute and is a pleasure to drive so I often wonder for the money what could be better?!

So I have filtered AT by cars up to 6 years old, less then 40k miles and over 400bhp and all of the cheapest cars are electric!

2021 Polestar 2 @ 402BHP £22.5k
2019 Tesla Model 3 @ 482BHP £23k

being the two most common models starting from £22.5k...

In comparison to petrol with the same filters..

2018 Ford Mustang 5.0 V8 £28k but who's paying that for a modern Ford I'm not sure.

2018 BMW M4 non-comp version - 431BHP 28k

So why is it you can buy a newer electric car with equal or better performance for circa £5k less then the petrol versions?

Have these electric cars just depreciated far heavier than the petrol equivalents or were they just cheaper cars to start with?

The BMW M4 RRP started from 63k where as the polestar RRP started from £53k. It looks to me like electric cars are just better value from new but that they also depreciate at a faster rate then petrol cars? I'm not looking to start a combustion vs electric argument I think its interesting given their performance and price points.

[E60525d]

Yes, electric cars depreciate is faster.

[un1eash]

We looked at used Jaguar IPace as they seem great value for money, under £25k for a 3 year old car which was £65k+ new.
The used market is flooded with used electric cars and there simply isn't a demand.

[Danj94]

Originally Posted by un1eash

We looked at used Jaguar IPace as they seem great value for money, under £25k for a 3 year old car which was £65k+ new.
The used market is flooded with used electric cars and there simply isn't a demand.

Interesting isn't it, I'm not opposed to having an electric car but if I did make the switch do I need to pay to have a charger installed at home etc. They certainly seems like better value for £ compared to combustion if you're looking for performance.

One theory of mine is the amount of company cars out there that are electric on lease will be far more then the number of M4's and mustangs as company cars....

that wont be helping the 2nd hand market for electric performance cars.

Got to say I am tempted for the Mrs, she drive and A class a180 we could sell that and get something electric which would be bigger and faster and newer for not much more money at all

[Pond]

Still can't see how they can get 450hp (not bhp) out of electric motors that fit into a car!

A few years ago, a 450hp electric motor would have been the size of a house and needed a huge three phase mains supply to turn it.

Not relevant to the cost discussion, but interesting to me!

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by Pond

Still can't see how they can get 450hp (not bhp) out of electric motors that fit into a car!

A few years ago, a 450hp electric motor would have been the size of a house and needed a huge three phase mains supply to turn it.

Not relevant to the cost discussion, but interesting to me!

I'm not clear how they measure bhp on a plug in car, but, weight aside, a 450bhp EV seems to be much slower than a 450bhp gas car

[lethbridge]

I guess it is how you define a performance car… Aren’t the Tesla’s and Polestars more like standard saloon cars but with big batteries and motors? So yes you can compare hp/0-60 with your car but will they engage you like your car, will they be as much fun? If someone wants a car to get from a-b with no hassle as quickly or as slowly as they like with little interest in the car itself then it is probably an ideal choice and that probably does define how most view a car. Even petrolheads who want a 2nd car for the runabout. But if that is all you want would you pay through the nose for insurance that goes with the hp figures these cars have or would you rather a 520d or similar which would be cheaper to buy and will have taken most of its depreciation hit vs an EV which remains a bit of an unknown in terms of when or even if the depreciation will bottom out.

In other words I think there is a bit of a disconnect between the power these cars have (which impacts range and insurance in particular) and what the majority want in this sort of car. Given most of these are flooding the 2nd hand market as a result of company car schemes I guess supply is significantly outstripping demand at the price point thay are at. Plus the general noise in the press is making people nervous of spending £20k on a 2nd hand EV…

[isleaiw1]

RS4 Avant 450hp 0-62 quoted at 4.1 s
iPace 400hp 0-62 quoted at 4.6s

Seems about right to me. Less power and heavier but instant torque and no gears.

In reality I wouldnt say in real life they feel any different in terms of performance, one is just a lot quieter doing it...

[AlwynMike]

Idly browsing the Kia EV6 GT with a supposed total of 577bhp.
For not much more than a lightly spec'd 378bhp M340i
Autocar say:
3.6 second 0-60 and 162mph.
But also some thrust with 30-70 in 2.7 seconds
0-100 a moderate 8 seconds though.
Autocar also describe it as fast and soulless

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

RS4 Avant 450hp 0-62 quoted at 4.1 s
iPace 400hp 0-62 quoted at 4.6s

Seems about right to me. Less power and heavier but instant torque and no gears.

In reality I wouldnt say in real life they feel any different in terms of performance, one is just a lot quieter doing it...

The RS4 will hit 100mph in about 9 seconds. What's the Jags figure?

[Grant_7]

Originally Posted by un1eash

The used market is flooded with used electric cars and there simply isn't a demand.

This.

Also I hear from a reputable source that consumers are just not buying EVs in the volumes being required by EU laws. Hence all the deals on new EVs. And it's not peaked yet...

As for the OP's question, getting performance out of an EV is easy and therefore cheap. But don't assume they're just headline figures. Cars like a Model 3 Performance are quick cars. Just watch the M3P vs RS6 CarWow videos to see that.

[JustChris]

BEVs mainly a company car lease and salary sacrifice I’d say. Not as many private buyers in the market for many reasons including general press scaremongering and probably concerns over used car battery performance.

Some bargains there for sure.

[TodmordenLad]

I know sweet FA about EVs .... But a 400hp+ ICE car isn't just about the outright engine power, it's most likely been customised for performance in terms of its suspension, steering, wheels and tyres, exhaust, aerodynamics, seats, looks etc, whereas an EV of the same raw power probably/ possibly hasn't? As I say, I know nothing about EVs but I'd rather have an RS4 than a Tesla putting out the same bhp any day!!

[Danj94]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

I know sweet FA about EVs .... But a 400hp+ ICE car isn't just about the outright engine power, it's most likely been customised for performance in terms of its suspension, steering, wheels and tyres, exhaust, aerodynamics, seats, looks etc, whereas an EV of the same raw power probably/ possibly hasn't? As I say, I know nothing about EVs but I'd rather have an RS4 than a Tesla putting out the same bhp any day!!

This is a really good shout and I've no doubt that Audi's research into suspension, stiffness and handling etc is far superior to the likes of polestar...

Lets face it though the average road driver goes fast in a straight line for a handful of seconds and rarely reaches the cars limits in the twisty stuff. I totally agree with you still though. RS cars are peak Audi performance and performance isn't just MPH the real measure is in lap time where handling is just as important as MPH.

After an earlier comment about the Jag iPace... 400hp £24k for a relatively low mileage example.... the only concern is where does the depreciation stop... typically depreciation slows after 5 years and almost stops after 10.... historically anyway. There isn't any 10 year old EV's out there yet really so I guess this is the unknown. If I buy a 5 year old combustion car for £20k I can be reasonably sure that in 4 years time it will likely still be worth 13-15k... this remains to be seen for EV's and might be contributing to the hesitancy in the used car market.

There is 500 BMW M4's for sale on AT up to 6 years old. There is 249 Tesla Model 3 performance for sale up to 6 years old. Yet the Tesla starts at £19750 (80k miles) and the M4 starts at £24k (convertible 80k miles.. next cheapest is hard top at £26k) there is twice as many M4's on the market as Tesla M3P... in my head the prices are the wrong way round.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Danj94

This is a really good shout and I've no doubt that Audi's research into suspension, stiffness and handling etc is far superior to the likes of polestar...

Lets face it though the average road driver goes fast in a straight line for a handful of seconds and rarely reaches the cars limits in the twisty stuff. I totally agree with you still though. RS cars are peak Audi performance and performance isn't just MPH the real measure is in lap time where handling is just as important as MPH.

After an earlier comment about the Jag iPace... 400hp £24k for a relatively low mileage example.... the only concern is where does the depreciation stop... typically depreciation slows after 5 years and almost stops after 10.... historically anyway. There isn't any 10 year old EV's out there yet really so I guess this is the unknown. If I buy a 5 year old combustion car for £20k I can be reasonably sure that in 4 years time it will likely still be worth 13-15k... this remains to be seen for EV's and might be contributing to the hesitancy in the used car market.

There is 500 BMW M4's for sale on AT up to 6 years old. There is 249 Tesla Model 3 performance for sale up to 6 years old. Yet the Tesla starts at £19750 (80k miles) and the M4 starts at £24k (convertible 80k miles.. next cheapest is hard top at £26k) there is twice as many M4's on the market as Tesla M3P... in my head the prices are the wrong way round.

I can't comment on your question about when depreciation on an EV stops other than to say that it does seem to be meteoric on used examples from a quick sniff around AT. By the way, what I was saying.above about an RS4 could equally apply to an M3/M4, it just so happens that I'm in an Audi at the mo'.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by crAbb

The RS4 will hit 100mph in about 9 seconds. What's the Jags figure?

No idea and not relevant, I doubt I have been 100 in the last 5 years more than twice.... and both of those would have been accelerating away from a roundabout on a dual carriageway just because the cars I had could....

I bet the Jag is quicker 50 to 70, although I havent looked...

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

I know sweet FA about EVs .... But a 400hp+ ICE car isn't just about the outright engine power, it's most likely been customised for performance in terms of its suspension, steering, wheels and tyres, exhaust, aerodynamics, seats, looks etc, whereas an EV of the same raw power probably/ possibly hasn't? As I say, I know nothing about EVs but I'd rather have an RS4 than a Tesla putting out the same bhp any day!!

Funnily enough, one I can comment on having had an RS4.... the Jag is a very different car as its not designed to be a sports saloon, just a crossover EV that happens to be quick.

I've done twice as many miles in the Jag in the same time period I owned the RS4 roughly, that probably says quite a lot.

The Audi was probably better to drop into conversation, but for the motoring I do, the Jag is a better option. That's not to say its a better drivers car, but how often are we really driving our cars as opposed to getting from A to B...? I now have the Mini if I want to drive - much slower but has character and manual so more involvement.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

I know sweet FA about EVs .... But a 400hp+ ICE car isn't just about the outright engine power, it's most likely been customised for performance in terms of its suspension, steering, wheels and tyres, exhaust, aerodynamics, seats, looks etc, whereas an EV of the same raw power probably/ possibly hasn't? As I say, I know nothing about EVs but I'd rather have an RS4 than a Tesla putting out the same bhp any day!!

I’d agree on the used market.
However the gap is closing (in my mind) due to EU regulations muting a performance ICE I’ve the years.

I was pretty appalled by the most recent B58 car I had the Z4. Was it a bad car or bad engine…? Certainly not, BUT the emotive part of the car for me is mainly the sound, and modern OPFs have almost killed that now. It was very very quiet! If I had slightly worse hearing you could have said it felt like a poor performance EV!!

Again all just my thoughts but if we take that part out, I’m left with an expensive to run car vs a negligee zero cost to run performance car.

Genuinely do prefer a great ICE car but my problem 🤔😂😇 is that I do prefer new and shiny, can’t recall the last used car I delved into.

Ioniq 5N probably has more motive driving feel that a modern mute M Performamce car. A full M maybe not but they’re quieter too.

Sort of on topic there, so going used yes an RS4 or for me maybe the 5 pot TTRS or that £28 Mustang to play with would be great.

I’m still hoping manufacturers are able to play an UNO Reverso card on exhaust sound emissions.

[gangzoom]

Is it 2024 or 2014?

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Funnily enough, one I can comment on having had an RS4.... the Jag is a very different car as its not designed to be a sports saloon, just a crossover EV that happens to be quick.

I've done twice as many miles in the Jag in the same time period I owned the RS4 roughly, that probably says quite a lot.

The Audi was probably better to drop into conversation, but for the motoring I do, the Jag is a better option. That's not to say its a better drivers car, but how often are we really driving our cars as opposed to getting from A to B...? I now have the Mini if I want to drive - much slower but has character and manual so more involvement.

"That's not to say its a better drivers car, but how often are we really driving our cars as opposed to getting from A to B..."

Can't argue with that one bit.
When I was looking to get the new estate in January, I started out looking at BMW and Audi performance options. Got all excited doing the Top Trumps numbers thing but eventually faced up to the fact that I would hardly ever use the performance or exploit the set up ... And the insurance quotes didn't help much either 😱. Ended up with a warm 2L 4cyl version. Would have been lovely to have had a sub-5 second, all wheel drive M or RS model on the drive but hey ho, I'll just watch the vids from time to time and tell myself i did the right thing 🥴

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

"That's not to say its a better drivers car, but how often are we really driving our cars as opposed to getting from A to B..."

Can't argue with that one bit.
When I was looking to get the new estate in January, I started out looking at BMW and Audi performance options. Got all excited doing the Top Trumps numbers thing but eventually faced up to the fact that I would hardly ever use the performance or exploit the set up ... And the insurance quotes didn't help much either 😱. Ended up with a warm 2L 4cyl version. Would have been lovely to have had a sub-5 second, all wheel drive M or RS model on the drive but hey ho, I'll just watch the vids from time to time and tell myself i did the right thing 🥴

Surely you're missing the point. Get into an RS4, leave the door open and start the engine. For me it's an emotional journey. I can get all the EV vibe from my fridge.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

"That's not to say its a better drivers car, but how often are we really driving our cars as opposed to getting from A to B..."

Can't argue with that one bit.
When I was looking to get the new estate in January, I started out looking at BMW and Audi performance options. Got all excited doing the Top Trumps numbers thing but eventually faced up to the fact that I would hardly ever use the performance or exploit the set up ... And the insurance quotes didn't help much either 😱. Ended up with a warm 2L 4cyl version. Would have been lovely to have had a sub-5 second, all wheel drive M or RS model on the drive but hey ho, I'll just watch the vids from time to time and tell myself i did the right thing 🥴

You did. I often thought similar as I sat in a queue on the M1 or M25 behind a cooking 320d... or even worse, got overtaken on country roads by a lesser version because I had some combination of my dog in a crate in the boot, my mum or partner in the passenger seat of my grandsons in the back..... And I can drive the iPace into central London and not worry about the congestion charge, or it getting nicked!