[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

I guess reading that comment with the one by KCH1984 what you are saying is please design cars that no one is buying instead of the ones that most people want....

How Many A4 estates do you see versus Q5s these days?

I know, the ranting of a misguided old man 😂

[KRS_SN]

Macan EV(or any premium EV SUV) will make for an excellent used buy a year and a bit from release. It's too small for my needs though.

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

SIL is just deciding between a Macan EV or a Taycan - having had EV before. Not everyone thinks they are a mistake...

I know that is what you hope but maybe you will be wrong..?

With the Taycan it's past tense. It's happened....

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by crAbb

With the Taycan it's past tense. It's happened....

Streets of London are full of them. New version with longer range and even better performance now available to order...

Its still for sale so hardly past tense...

[TimMcC]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

I've got nothing against EVs, honestly. My only plea to the manufacturers would be to stop designing butt ugly, huge, heavy, SUV styled EVs and to design cars which are sleek, attractive and affordable. I mean, just look at that white Audi in that article!? Ghastly..

The appallingly named 'MG Cyberster' looks promising. Quite fancy one to replace our i3 if the quality is up to it and it drives well. Who can say no to scissor doors?

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Streets of London are full of them. New version with longer range and even better performance now available to order...

Its still for sale so hardly past tense...

You're making yourself look foolish now.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by crAbb

You're making yourself look foolish now.

Am I? Demand may not have been as good as people hoped - but then no one predicted a war that forced gas and electricity prices higher. If something happens in the middle east causing oil prices to spike, whilst we break the link between gas and electric prices seeing as so much electricity is renewable sources now, then what will happen to relative demands?

I'd say the current situation is in part events, in part our ridiculous media, in part a natural tendency to dislike major change amongst many people - lets call them luddites, and a cost of living crisis. What happens in the next 5 years is anyone's guess.

I do know my next car will be EV. Might even be a nicely specced secondhand Taycan Cross Turismo if the prices are right in 18 months to 2 years time.

I think the passing of the EV is being celebrated too soon. I dont think that makes me an idiot. They are people who try to stop change or profess it will never happen.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by TimMcC

The appallingly named 'MG Cyberster' looks promising. Quite fancy one to replace our i3 if the quality is up to it and it drives well. Who can say no to scissor doors?

Saw one in the MG showroom in knightsbridge a while ago. Was much bigger than I expected or hoped.

Think I'll stick with the manual Mini for top down fun for now...

[Sennen]

Originally Posted by Ennoch

Agreed. Look at how things like the M4 sell vs the likes of the BRZ or Alpine. People want luxury and willy waving over all else, and there are very few people who love driving left. Or at any rate not the ones who'd still be able to enjoy razzing a twenty year old fiesta down a country road with a big grin on. Must have comfort, must have cup holders, must isolate you completely so you then need a ridiculously loud exhaust just to stand a chance of hearing it inside, and must have enough space to get your beer gut behind the steering wheel. Proper cars that handle and have subtlety are out the window in favour of massive power claims, massively wide tyres to try and stop it spearing into the scenery away from the (traffic) lights, big brakes to cope with the unreachable top speed, massive wheels to clear the brakes and then stupidly thin tyres to still fit within the arches. It's all bollocks. I'm not sure the average person would know what a good handling sports car was even if it ran them over and left a note saying 'good handling cars here'.

Totally agree Ennoch.

There are very few of what I consider to be drivers cars left anymore, even the Emira which I had a drive of last year was not nearly as impressive as its predecessors the Exige or Elise.

Manufacturers now seem hell bent on filling there 'performance' cars with ridiculous options like heated steering wheels, electric seats etc etc and this all adds weight.

My Alpine A110S is head and shoulders over anything on offer as a drivers car atm with the posible exception of Caterham and Porsche GT cars. Even my sons 911 GTS is not as good to drive as the Alpine by some margin.

I am waiting to see what Manufacturers can bring out in the 'EV Sports Car' sector but I think with current battery technology weight is always going to be an issue and that imo is what ultimately seperates a really good drivers car from a mediocre one. And lets not even get into the lack of sound.

Depressing times ahead for people like myself that appreciate a real drivers car as opposed to a 'point & squirt special'

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by Ennoch

Agreed. Look at how things like the M4 sell vs the likes of the BRZ or Alpine. People want luxury and willy waving over all else, and there are very few people who love driving left. Or at any rate not the ones who'd still be able to enjoy razzing a twenty year old fiesta down a country road with a big grin on. Must have comfort, must have cup holders, must isolate you completely so you then need a ridiculously loud exhaust just to stand a chance of hearing it inside, and must have enough space to get your beer gut behind the steering wheel. Proper cars that handle and have subtlety are out the window in favour of massive power claims, massively wide tyres to try and stop it spearing into the scenery away from the (traffic) lights, big brakes to cope with the unreachable top speed, massive wheels to clear the brakes and then stupidly thin tyres to still fit within the arches. It's all bollocks. I'm not sure the average person would know what a good handling sports car was even if it ran them over and left a note saying 'good handling cars here'.

A good mate of mine used to have an air-cooled 911 which, although lovely, he didn’t drive as often as he’d like (for a variety of reasons, including the value being worth liquidating).

He still loves a spirited drive. His solution ? An original, European (therefore LHD), 205 Ralleye, in white. I’m pretty sure he said it’s 34 years old.

It’s an absolute riot, and he loves it. Manual everything, almost no noise insulation, no power steering (therefore loads of feel once it’s moving), revs to 7K.

More smiles per mile per Euro (he bought it from an owner in Spain) than most cars you could name.

Brilliant.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by boba-fett

In my local Lotus MG dealer!!

Yuk!

Horrible ! The rear 3/4 is shockingly bad, and the interior screams “meh”.

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by Watsey

A good mate of mine used to have an air-cooled 911 which, although lovely, he didn’t drive as often as he’d like (for a variety of reasons, including the value being worth liquidating).

He still loves a spirited drive. His solution ? An original, European (therefore LHD), 205 Ralleye, in white. I’m pretty sure he said it’s 34 years old.

It’s an absolute riot, and he loves it. Manual everything, almost no noise insulation, no power steering (therefore loads of feel once it’s moving), revs to 7K.

More smiles per mile per Euro (he bought it from an owner in Spain) than most cars you could name.

Brilliant.

Interesting. I was perusing ebay a few weeks back, and came across the 106 Gti, a not dissimilar flavour of 'less is more'. I have to say, I was tempted...

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by TimMcC

The appallingly named 'MG Cyberster' looks promising. Quite fancy one to replace our i3 if the quality is up to it and it drives well. Who can say no to scissor doors?

Good grief, it actually looks like quite an attractive car!? Starting from £50k, mind you

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Am I? Demand may not have been as good as people hoped - but then no one predicted a war that forced gas and electricity prices higher. If something happens in the middle east causing oil prices to spike, whilst we break the link between gas and electric prices seeing as so much electricity is renewable sources now, then what will happen to relative demands?

I'd say the current situation is in part events, in part our ridiculous media, in part a natural tendency to dislike major change amongst many people - lets call them luddites, and a cost of living crisis. What happens in the next 5 years is anyone's guess.

I do know my next car will be EV. Might even be a nicely specced secondhand Taycan Cross Turismo if the prices are right in 18 months to 2 years time.

I think the passing of the EV is being celebrated too soon. I dont think that makes me an idiot. They are people who try to stop change or profess it will never happen.

QED

[JustChris]

Another day another EV bashing Crabb/Lobb thread

This one is a bit of an oddball vehicle though. Tough sell some of those prices for Lotus!

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Another day another EV bashing Crabb/Lobb thread

This one is a bit of an oddball vehicle though. Tough sell some of those prices for Lotus!

Weird as it's an odd thing to get animated about imho, as in, 'they're here to stay, noone is forcing you to buy one, get over it..'
F***ing electric hire bikes littering the pavements everywhere, however, now that's a different matter !! 😡😡

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Weird as it's an odd thing to get animated about imho, as in, 'they're here to stay, noone is forcing you to buy one, get over it..'
F***ing electric hire bikes littering the pavements everywhere, however, now that's a different matter !! 😡😡

While we're at it, electric scooters (stand on variety) and chipped e-bikes - ridden illegally on roads and pavements, no insurance (guaranteed), cutting in front of other (legal) road users without any consideration or regard for self-preservation, often no lights.

Riders/drivers of any form of fully powered transport should be trained, licensed, insured, and wearing a helmet (at least). Vehicles must have working front & rear lights at all times.

The law has been left been far behind and needs to catch up quickly.

[SkyJawa]

Originally Posted by crAbb

Interesting. I was perusing ebay a few weeks back, and came across the 106 Gti, a not dissimilar flavour of 'less is more'. I have to say, I was tempted...

Were decent, as was the 306 GTi-6 and 306 Rallye. The 205, 309 and 405 era was a golden one for Peugeot leading into the 106, and 306, the 206 a bit less special then it all started going downhill after that.

I can relate to the 205 Rallye comment, ever time I drive my 1.9 GTi I always get out after with a smile on my face. In fairness it does have PAS, but it hydraulic and very unintrusive, just helps a bit at low speeds.

In an ideal world where I’m minted (yeah right!) I’d have a barn with:

205 1.6 GTi
205 1.9 GTi
309 GTi
309 GTi 16v (Europe only)
405 Mi-16
405 Mi-16x4
106 GTi
106 Rallye
306 GTi-6
306 Rallye.

Bit of a Pug fanboi

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by SkyJawa

Were decent, as was the 306 GTi-6 and 306 Rallye. The 205, 309 and 405 era was a golden one for Peugeot leading into the 106, and 306, the 206 a bit less special then it all started going downhill after that.

I can relate to the 205 Rallye comment, ever time I drive my 1.9 GTi I always get out after with a smile on my face. In fairness it does have PAS, but it hydraulic and very unintrusive, just helps a bit at low speeds.

In an ideal world where I’m minted (yeah right!) I’d have a barn with:

205 1.6 GTi
205 1.9 GTi
309 GTi
309 GTi 16v (Europe only)
405 Mi-16
405 Mi-16x4
106 GTi
106 Rallye
306 GTi-6
306 Rallye.

Bit of a Pug fanboi

My brother worked at a Peugeot dealer back in the day so I've had a fair few cooking ones and the balance between ride and handling was sublime, even in the normal cars.

I also had a 306 GTi-6 a few years later when my daily commute was 20 miles of country roads, it was fab fun but it did want to pirhouette a bit too much for my liking so it had to go....

a 405 Mi-16x4 was on my shopping list once and then I changed jobs and wasnt allowed one!

[Ennoch]

Absolutely Sennen and Watsey. Someone who rides with us has a Tesla and an E-bike (there is a link, I promise) and he's always going on about the environmental credentials yet after three years is already looking at getting a new Tesla. If he was that worried about the environment he'd want to keep it long term, he's more a consumerist environmental worrier rather than someone who actually cares. He's always going on about how I'd like one if I drove one (I have, many), and how it's quicker than the 335d (that's surprisingly circumstances dependant), but completely ignores that it's not about speed, it's about engagement. And he simply can't understand that. He's the same with the e-bike (or mobility scooter as I prefer to call them) where he says 'oh but you'd like one if you tried it', completely ignoring the fact that I have ridden them many, many times for review purposes and development work, and I hate the sodding things. They're heavy, lumpen and feel stodgy to ride. And when he jumps back on the normal bike he struggles because he can't deal with the bike moving about more, and that it has less grip in the tighter stuff, which is the stuff I love and why I hate the heavy and dead mobility bikes. I totally get that not everyone wants that connection, they'd rather have disconnection, and the modern attitude to everything in life seems to breed that approach more and more.

And how many cars sell based on connection? The Elise and Exige don't exist as they used to, and the only really lightweight influenced 'sportscars' are the GT86/BRZ, MX5 and Alpine. Remember the Vauxhall VX220 (or Smart Roadster)? Can you imagine a mainstream manufacturer making anything even close to either of those today? It would have to be a box ticking bulbous EV midi-SUV with lots of chintzy toys, some bling wheels and who cares if it weighs two tons, looks like a badly set blancmange and handles like a boat? 'But it's got heated seats' would be the cry, followed by 'look, I can play games from my phone on the screen while I drive'. Those of us who actually care about driving feedback are dying out, and will continue to do so while cars insulate and isolate the drivers more and more. Most drivers would welcome self driving cars because not only is driving not a valued skill beyond 'I've got a licence', but an active nuisance. When I finally move north permanently the first thing I'll be doing will be digging into finally building up my Midget shell and having a really nice, light and enjoyable little car to have fun down lanes in. Who cares if it's cold, rattly and doesn't have power brakes or steering? You don't need them, because it weighs less than 700kg, and as a result doesn't need stupidly wide and sticky tyres, nor massive brake assistance to mask its bulk. I've been lucky enough to drive a couple of 800bhp+ cars on the road and I just didn't enjoy them because everything was so upgraded that they felt crap at still well illegal speeds, and when you really pushed you were so far beyond licence losing territory that it was just unpleasant. Who cares how fast a car gets to 150mph (or even 100mph) when if you have any form of social responsibility that is going to be an occasion somewhere between barely ever, and never. Having a car that handles while flinging it through those corners you drive every day, to me at least, seems much more important. And that fun could be had whether in a base 318d, or the top 340i. Of course a certain element of power is useful for overtaking etc, and it is fun to point and squirt, but we now seem to be in territory where the levels of performance are completely unsuitable for use on the public road given so may users have so little appreciation of consequence (perhaps down to the level of isolation from what's going on that's so prevalent in modern cars).

There are so many cars from the past that even in cooking spec were fun little cars. Things like Saxos, Fiestas etc, and not forgetting the 106/205/306 ilk too which could all be hustled down a road with a massive smile and for not a lot of fuel. Now people would whinge that they didn't have a holder for their Costa, their phone couldn't wirelessly charge, and the dash (that they touch once a year) isn't 'soft touch'. I mean who cares whether something is hard or soft plastic if you don't actually touch it? And even then, the soft touch stuff on buttons etc usually only lasts about five years before going sticky anyway, just ask any E46 owner!

Reverting to the electric bike thing for a moment, a mate of mine was the distributer for KTM bicycles for a number of years. He was always a strong opponent to the shops that chipped their bikes for users to circumvent all the rules about speed and assistance, and would happily black list dealers for doing so. Too many people have an 'I don't care about everyone else' attitude, as long as they're okay. But then that's life in general now, isn't it?

[Wills2]

Agreed Ennoch, there is nothing worse than a rabid consumerist ramming eco claims down your throat.

We can see that for a certain cohort EVs make sense but we can also see via the used market that there is an enormous gulf between what the first user is able to pay and the huge tax give away that enables that market and what the secondary market is willing/able to pay.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Agreed Ennoch, there is nothing worse than a rabid consumerist ramming eco claims down your throat.

We can see that for a certain cohort EVs make sense but we can also see via the used market that there is an enormous gulf between what the first user is able to pay and the huge tax give away that enables that market and what the secondary market is willing/able to pay.

Apart from the eco thing, I imagine exactly the same could be said of a 7 series....

Doesnt stop them being fantastic cars for the right person...