[crAbb]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Apart from the eco thing, I imagine exactly the same could be said of a 7 series....

Doesnt stop them being fantastic cars for the right person...

The government isn't trying to ram 7 series BMWs down the consumers throats with huge tax breaks...

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by crAbb

The government isn't trying to ram 7 series BMWs down the consumers throats with huge tax breaks...

They give tax breaks to company car drivers. Apart from Wills2 everyone I know with a 7 series got very good tax breaks on them as they are exec "taxis" used for business only.

Of course no one has to buy an EV and the tax breaks arent compulsory if you dont want an EV. So not sure rammed is an appropriate word unless you write for the Mail...

[Scoobyd]

Great post Ennoch. Though my only disagreement is that 21 years on my E46 has no sticky buttons

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Apart from the eco thing, I imagine exactly the same could be said of a 7 series....

Doesnt stop them being fantastic cars for the right person...

If you remove the context of a post you can draw any number of conclusions, no relevant ones though.

[cfm56d7b]

It's important to note that Lotus Eletre ...

1. Was designed a few years ago but could not be built since both the plant and the EV platform weren't ready
2. The plant which now builds Lotus Eletre is in Wuhan, China; completed in July 2022
3. In 2021, Geely announced a development plan with Alpine as part of a joint venture with Renault–Nissan–Mitsubishi Alliance to develop electric vehicles and the platforms they will sit upon. This strategy builds upon the 800V Electric Premium Architecture (EPA) platform development led by Lotus.

EV platforms are expensive to design. Stellantis also invested in its own platform offering both 400V and 800V variants.

https://www.stellantis.com/en/news/p...um-of-vehicles

With shared EV powertrain platforms, electric vehicle innovation is increasingly focused on exterior and interior.

My humble perspective is that offering minimalistic interiors with one tablet to govern all inputs and displays is a race to the bottom. It leads to a single point of failure in the sales strategy: exterior innovation is the last lever to influence consumer buying behavior.

But what if every car has the same or similar EV powertrain, with the only option available - 10" or 60" tablet - and exterior from yet-to-be released sequels of Judge Dredd or Tron movies ... who would buy these vehicles at least from this community?

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by cfm56d7b

It's important to note that Lotus Eletre ...

1. Was designed a few years ago but could not be built since both the plant and the EV platform weren't ready
2. The plant which now builds Lotus Eletre is in Wuhan, China; completed in July 2022
3. In 2021, Geely announced a development plan with Alpine as part of a joint venture with Renault–Nissan–Mitsubishi Alliance to develop electric vehicles and the platforms they will sit upon. This strategy builds upon the 800V Electric Premium Architecture (EPA) platform development led by Lotus.

EV platforms are expensive to design. Stellantis also invested in its own platform offering both 400V and 800V variants.

https://www.stellantis.com/en/news/p...um-of-vehicles

With shared EV powertrain platforms, electric vehicle innovation is increasingly focused on exterior and interior.

My humble perspective is that offering minimalistic interiors with one tablet to govern all inputs and displays is a race to the bottom. It leads to a single point of failure in the sales strategy: exterior innovation is the last lever to influence consumer buying behavior.

But what if every car has the same or similar EV powertrain, with the only option available - 10" or 60" tablet - and exterior from yet-to-be released sequels of Judge Dredd or Tron movies ... who would buy these vehicles at least from this community?

Personally, I'd rather have my naked testicles cupped and massaged by Joe Biden than drive an EV

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by crAbb

Personally, I'd rather have my naked testicles cupped and massaged by Joe Biden than drive an EV

I think that says more about you than EVs, we have always suspected

[Pond]

Originally Posted by crAbb

Personally, I'd rather have my naked testicles cupped and massaged by Joe Biden than drive an EV

Agreed. However, if it was Trump, I would take the EV in a heart beat. I wouldn't trust him not to rip 'em off and try and sell 'em!

[Pond]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Apart from the eco thing, I imagine exactly the same could be said of a 7 series....

Doesnt stop them being fantastic cars for the right person...

I remember the 7 series being the fastest depreciating car, bar none, for many, many years. It was even worse than an S class as didn't have the same kudos used.

I have a friend with a 2018 7 series. He is set to lose around £50k on depreciation in 5 odd years as he needs to replace it. But it's OK, cos it won't cost him a penny, as it is a 'company car', so just writes the losses off.

I will put money on him getting something like a brand new i7, or similar at £100k plus! He may even get that Lotus thing, as the company is paying. He does have an M4 as something 'for the weekend' aswell.

[boba-fett]

So the Lotus Electricity is basically a 100k, pig ugly MG built in Wuhan and the only justifiable reason why you would be daft enough to buy one, is a government incentives or tax break?

Thats like the government saying to me, we are now reducing Turkish delight to 10p a bar.

[Pond]

Originally Posted by boba-fett

So the Lotus Electricity is basically a 100k, pig ugly MG built in Wuhan and the only justifiable reason why you would be daft enough to buy one, is a government incentives or tax break?

Thats like the government saying to me, we are now reducing Turkish delight to 10p a bar.

I only found out they are making these in China a few days ago.
I might give the factory a call and ask them if they will sell me a few with a Ferrari badge on for £25k. I would bet they will say yes, cos the Chinese have never really been bothered by 'brands' have they?

That's how Sugar made his millions; although it was more Taiwan and Korea in those days.

[E60525d]

Originally Posted by Pond

I only found out they are making these in China a few days ago.
I might give the factory a call and ask them if they will sell me a few with a Ferrari badge on for £25k. I would bet they will say yes, cos the Chinese have never really been bothered by 'brands' have they?

That's how Sugar made his millions; although it was more Taiwan and Korea in those days.

Why does it matter where it's made? As long as the quality control processes in place are to a high standard.

BMW has production factories across the world and there isn't a difference on quality as the quality control processes are consistent.

Strange why China isn't mentioned when buying iPhones or Google phones which are made in China.

[boba-fett]

Originally Posted by E60525d

Why does it matter where it's made? As long as the quality control processes in place are to a high standard.

BMW has production factories across the world and there isn't a difference on quality as the quality control processes are consistent.

Strange why China isn't mentioned when buying iPhones or Google phones which are made in China.

Just as equally, It might matter to some where its made.

Ill add the stupid laughing emoji for you as well that you always seem to add to your posts.

[Pond]

Originally Posted by E60525d

Why does it matter where it's made?

Because it's a £100k Lotus, that's why. Or more accurately, as it turns out, a massively overpriced Chinese MG.

Lotus are as British as fish & chips. They should be made in a shed in Norfolk by five members of the same family and be crap but light and well engineered. Then loved by their fans even though they are crap.

As soon as you put China into the equation, it stinks of using the Lotus badge's status for profit.

Colin Chapman would be very displeased, of that I am certain.

TVR are a good case as reference. Built in Blackpool for decades. They were crap but 'British crap', so got themselves a huge kudos. Then sold out to the Ruskys. All the kudos was gone in a heartbeat and they failed.

I fear this is Lotus's TVR moment!

[boba-fett]

Originally Posted by Pond

Because it's a £100k Lotus, that's why. Or more accurately, as it turns out, a massively overpriced Chinese MG.

Lotus are as British as fish & chips. They should be made in a shed in Norfolk by five members of the same family and be crap but light and well engineered. Then loved by their fans even though they are crap.

As soon as you put China into the equation, it stinks of using the Lotus badge's status for profit.

Colin Chapman would be very displeased, of that I am certain.

TVR are a good case as reference. Built in Blackpool for decades. They were crap but 'British crap', so got themselves a huge kudos. Then sold out to the Ruskys. All the kudos was gone in a heartbeat and they failed.

I fear this is Lotus's TVR moment!

lets not forget - If it did not have a Lotus badge we would probably think its the new MG8 or the likes

[E60525d]

Originally Posted by boba-fett

Just as equally, It might matter to some where its made.

Ill add the stupid laughing emoji for you as well that you always seem to add to your posts.

Always???

By posting a few emojis, this seems to have gotten to you? Oh dear!

[E60525d]

Originally Posted by Pond

Because it's a £100k Lotus, that's why. Or more accurately, as it turns out, a massively overpriced Chinese MG.

Lotus are as British as fish & chips. They should be made in a shed in Norfolk by five members of the same family and be crap but light and well engineered. Then loved by their fans even though they are crap.

As soon as you put China into the equation, it stinks of using the Lotus badge's status for profit.

Colin Chapman would be very displeased, of that I am certain.

TVR are a good case as reference. Built in Blackpool for decades. They were crap but 'British crap', so got themselves a huge kudos. Then sold out to the Ruskys. All the kudos was gone in a heartbeat and they failed.

I fear this is Lotus's TVR moment!

I can see where your coming from but things move on.

And off course this is all for profit in the same way Lamborghini made the Urus. As a business if you can make extra £££, why wouldn't you?

[Sennen]

Originally Posted by Ennoch

Absolutely Sennen and Watsey. Someone who rides with us has a Tesla and an E-bike (there is a link, I promise) and he's always going on about the environmental credentials yet after three years is already looking at getting a new Tesla. If he was that worried about the environment he'd want to keep it long term, he's more a consumerist environmental worrier rather than someone who actually cares. He's always going on about how I'd like one if I drove one (I have, many), and how it's quicker than the 335d (that's surprisingly circumstances dependant), but completely ignores that it's not about speed, it's about engagement. And he simply can't understand that. He's the same with the e-bike (or mobility scooter as I prefer to call them) where he says 'oh but you'd like one if you tried it', completely ignoring the fact that I have ridden them many, many times for review purposes and development work, and I hate the sodding things. They're heavy, lumpen and feel stodgy to ride. And when he jumps back on the normal bike he struggles because he can't deal with the bike moving about more, and that it has less grip in the tighter stuff, which is the stuff I love and why I hate the heavy and dead mobility bikes. I totally get that not everyone wants that connection, they'd rather have disconnection, and the modern attitude to everything in life seems to breed that approach more and more.

And how many cars sell based on connection? The Elise and Exige don't exist as they used to, and the only really lightweight influenced 'sportscars' are the GT86/BRZ, MX5 and Alpine. Remember the Vauxhall VX220 (or Smart Roadster)? Can you imagine a mainstream manufacturer making anything even close to either of those today? It would have to be a box ticking bulbous EV midi-SUV with lots of chintzy toys, some bling wheels and who cares if it weighs two tons, looks like a badly set blancmange and handles like a boat? 'But it's got heated seats' would be the cry, followed by 'look, I can play games from my phone on the screen while I drive'. Those of us who actually care about driving feedback are dying out, and will continue to do so while cars insulate and isolate the drivers more and more. Most drivers would welcome self driving cars because not only is driving not a valued skill beyond 'I've got a licence', but an active nuisance. When I finally move north permanently the first thing I'll be doing will be digging into finally building up my Midget shell and having a really nice, light and enjoyable little car to have fun down lanes in. Who cares if it's cold, rattly and doesn't have power brakes or steering? You don't need them, because it weighs less than 700kg, and as a result doesn't need stupidly wide and sticky tyres, nor massive brake assistance to mask its bulk. I've been lucky enough to drive a couple of 800bhp+ cars on the road and I just didn't enjoy them because everything was so upgraded that they felt crap at still well illegal speeds, and when you really pushed you were so far beyond licence losing territory that it was just unpleasant. Who cares how fast a car gets to 150mph (or even 100mph) when if you have any form of social responsibility that is going to be an occasion somewhere between barely ever, and never. Having a car that handles while flinging it through those corners you drive every day, to me at least, seems much more important. And that fun could be had whether in a base 318d, or the top 340i. Of course a certain element of power is useful for overtaking etc, and it is fun to point and squirt, but we now seem to be in territory where the levels of performance are completely unsuitable for use on the public road given so may users have so little appreciation of consequence (perhaps down to the level of isolation from what's going on that's so prevalent in modern cars).

There are so many cars from the past that even in cooking spec were fun little cars. Things like Saxos, Fiestas etc, and not forgetting the 106/205/306 ilk too which could all be hustled down a road with a massive smile and for not a lot of fuel. Now people would whinge that they didn't have a holder for their Costa, their phone couldn't wirelessly charge, and the dash (that they touch once a year) isn't 'soft touch'. I mean who cares whether something is hard or soft plastic if you don't actually touch it? And even then, the soft touch stuff on buttons etc usually only lasts about five years before going sticky anyway, just ask any E46 owner!

Reverting to the electric bike thing for a moment, a mate of mine was the distributer for KTM bicycles for a number of years. He was always a strong opponent to the shops that chipped their bikes for users to circumvent all the rules about speed and assistance, and would happily black list dealers for doing so. Too many people have an 'I don't care about everyone else' attitude, as long as they're okay. But then that's life in general now, isn't it?

Great post Ennoch

How long can the fun last in a 2 tonne car that gets to 60 in 4 seconds but goes down the road like a Narrowboat

[Sennen]

Originally Posted by Pond

Because it's a £100k Lotus, that's why. Or more accurately, as it turns out, a massively overpriced Chinese MG.

Lotus are as British as fish & chips. They should be made in a shed in Norfolk by five members of the same family and be crap but light and well engineered. Then loved by their fans even though they are crap.

As soon as you put China into the equation, it stinks of using the Lotus badge's status for profit.

Colin Chapman would be very displeased, of that I am certain.

TVR are a good case as reference. Built in Blackpool for decades. They were crap but 'British crap', so got themselves a huge kudos. Then sold out to the Ruskys. All the kudos was gone in a heartbeat and they failed.

I fear this is Lotus's TVR moment!

Another great post Pond

Yes poor Colin Chapmans legacy really has been flushed down the 'sh1tter'.

Lotus' USP has always been lightness, it is, or should say was their Mantra. If Lotus are still going in 5 years time I will be surprised.

They have gone in the space of a few years from selling some of the best drivers cars in the world at reasonably sensible prices to an EV turd that will be purchased by people with more money than sense so they can 'show off' on the school run....... how very sad

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by Sennen

They have gone in the space of a few years from selling some of the best drivers cars in the world at reasonably sensible prices to an EV turd that will be purchased by people with more money than sense so they can 'show off' on the school run....... how very sad

Sounds a lot like Porsche....

or maybe we should look at something more specialist like Lambo...

As has been the case since it arrived in 2018, the Urus SUV was Lamborghini's best-seller last year, accounting for nearly two thirds of output at Sant'Agata, with 6087 units sold globally.

You might be interested in lightness and drivng quality to queue round the crowded roads of the south, but it seems most people want something else.

That doesnt make you right, by the way...

How is the Alpine and the Caterham, got any more pics of them together?

[Bryans69]

Originally Posted by Sennen

Another great post Pond

Yes poor Colin Chapmans legacy really has been flushed down the 'sh1tter'.

Lotus' USP has always been lightness, it is, or should say was their Mantra. If Lotus are still going in 5 years time I will be surprised.

They have gone in the space of a few years from selling some of the best drivers cars in the world at reasonably sensible prices to an EV turd that will be purchased by people with more money than sense so they can 'show off' on the school run....... how very sad

The problem was, they weren't selling some of the best drivers cars in the world. They were making them, but not enough buyers to make money.

And not really sure the Esprit and Eclat / Excel / Elite where feather weights

[boba-fett]

Originally Posted by Bryans69

The problem was, they weren't selling some of the best drivers cars in the world. They were making them, but not enough buyers to make money.

And not really sure the Esprit and Eclat / Excel / Elite where feather weights

I do agree with this, I have only ever had two Lotus's (An Esprit and an eclair or whatever you called them) and although looked nice where pretty sh1t and you could always rely on them breaking down.

They are just kit cars really, made from the bottom of other car makers parts bin.

The fact that these are Chinese and really a badged up MG might mean it will be a more reliable car, but either way its still sh1t!