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      10-22-2019, 06:59 PM   #1805
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Could someone please explain why it was ok for Brexiteers to not vote for Maya deal but suddenly its not alright for Remainers to even ask for time to look at the deal?
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      10-22-2019, 07:08 PM   #1806
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You’re asking two different questions. The brexiteers wouldn’t vote for May’s deal largely due to the backstop. Something many remainers were opposed to as well. It’s strange how pretty much every political journalist and commentator was able to read and pick apart the WAB overnight yet for the paid, elected MP’s it’s too much work. The reality is none of them expected Boris to get a new deal with Brussels. He did so now they’re kicking the can down the road yet again. Utterly transparent.
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      10-23-2019, 03:54 AM   #1807
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Never has a parliament been more in need of a general election. Yet the make up of the current parliament are loving the limbo it causes and the power it takes from the government. They know that come a GE they'll be largely toast and the idea of giving up that £80k salary and the current fun they're all having is far more enticing a prospect than letting the country break out of this godforsaken rut.

The irony is that all the time they don't and won't pass a deal the no deal brexit they're all so keen to take off the table remains on it. This current deal seems to be a genuine compromise, surprisingly so. Whether they've had 3 days or 3 weeks to read through and analyse the WAB wouldn't make the blind bit of difference to most as they'd struggle to understand it. Thick as mince half of this lot.

Besides, they want more time to read through a Bill that they're completely set against voting on regardless of the content. What an absolute farce. The next GE will see a decimation on a par with the expenses scandal.
That's my take on it as well.

As for your final sentence, I do hope that voters remember the actions that their MP took and vote accordingly.

Time for, hopefully, a decisive return to a majority government to sort out this snivelling shit show parliament and make some progress.
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      10-23-2019, 04:11 AM   #1808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobyd View Post
Never has a parliament been more in need of a general election. Yet the make up of the current parliament are loving the limbo it causes and the power it takes from the government. They know that come a GE they'll be largely toast and the idea of giving up that £80k salary and the current fun they're all having is far more enticing a prospect than letting the country break out of this godforsaken rut.

The irony is that all the time they don't and won't pass a deal the no deal brexit they're all so keen to take off the table remains on it. This current deal seems to be a genuine compromise, surprisingly so. Whether they've had 3 days or 3 weeks to read through and analyse the WAB wouldn't make the blind bit of difference to most as they'd struggle to understand it. Thick as mince half of this lot.

Besides, they want more time to read through a Bill that they're completely set against voting on regardless of the content. What an absolute farce. The next GE will see a decimation on a par with the expenses scandal.
That's my take on it as well.

As for your final sentence, I do hope that voters remember the actions that their MP took and vote accordingly.

Time for, hopefully, a decisive return to a majority government to sort out this snivelling shit show parliament and make some progress.
If only, I just don't think that the Lib Dems will manage a decisive majority.
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      10-23-2019, 04:12 AM   #1809
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I love the fact that brexiters have been groomed so well that they forget that 48% didn't vote for this yet they think that GE is going to result in a landslide victory for a Tory party that keeps threatening no deal, you couldn't make it up....

A GE will result in another hung parliament, currently the HoC has voted for a brexit deal (lets be clear on that voted for a WA deal) but have quite rightly said the single most important deal in our recent history needs more than 3 days debate, yet so vast is the average brexiters insight (into something they haven't read) they think that's not needed.

You know where the stairs are in your house and where they lead, but you wouldn't run down them blind folded would you? (I'm beginning to wonder)
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      10-23-2019, 05:01 AM   #1810
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I love the fact that brexiters have been groomed so well that they forget that 48% didn't vote for this yet they think that GE is going to result in a landslide victory for a Tory party that keeps threatening no deal, you couldn't make it up....

A GE will result in another hung parliament, currently the HoC has voted for a brexit deal (lets be clear on that voted for a WA deal) but have quite rightly said the single most important deal in our recent history needs more than 3 days debate, yet so vast is the average brexiters insight (into something they haven't read) they think that's not needed.

You know where the stairs are in your house and where they lead, but you wouldn't run down them blind folded would you? (I'm beginning to wonder)
And I love the fact that people like Ian Blackford can complain with a straight face about the amount of time being made available to scrutinise the bill; it wouldn't matter to him and his party what was in it, whether they had three days or three years to review it they're going to vote against regardless!

That said I do think the government should grant additional time even if it means missing their 31st October exit date; they're going to do that anyway but if they got an extension for say a couple of weeks that should be more than long enough for MP's to give the legislation the scrutiny it needs. As we're constantly being told, over 80% of the latest WA is unchanged from Theresa May's original and hence the content of much of the resultant proposed legislation should come as no surprise to anyone; therefore, those who claim they'd need months to assimilate it are either not up to the job and/or are just looking to block and stall the whole thing (as they have been doing for a couple of years now).

In terms of a GE result, perhaps it will return another hung Parliament and perhaps it won't; however, the current one clearly isn't working and needs changing (sooner rather than later IMO).
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      10-23-2019, 06:31 AM   #1811
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And I love the fact that people like Ian Blackford can complain with a straight face about the amount of time being made available to scrutinise the bill; it wouldn't matter to him and his party what was in it, whether they had three days or three years to review it they're going to vote against regardless!

That said I do think the government should grant additional time even if it means missing their 31st October exit date; they're going to do that anyway but if they got an extension for say a couple of weeks that should be more than long enough for MP's to give the legislation the scrutiny it needs. As we're constantly being told, over 80% of the latest WA is unchanged from Theresa May's original and hence the content of much of the resultant proposed legislation should come as no surprise to anyone; therefore, those who claim they'd need months to assimilate it are either not up to the job and/or are just looking to block and stall the whole thing (as they have been doing for a couple of years now).

In terms of a GE result, perhaps it will return another hung Parliament and perhaps it won't; however, the current one clearly isn't working and needs changing (sooner rather than later IMO).
Blackford's position is clear he represents a party that wants its own lemming moment and his country voted to stay but the SNP are not bell weathers in that place (I agree he is annoying if that's also your view)

Yesterday the brexit secretary didn't know all the detail in the WA bill (again such a damning position is just brushed aside by the groomed) so please don't try and pretend that you do or that the HoC is a position to sign off on the thing without first reading properly it's not a Jack Reacher novel.....
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      10-23-2019, 06:55 AM   #1812
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But do MPs actually read all this stuff - dont they have underpaid politics student researcher types to precis it down into words they can understand, and then the whip comes along and tells them the bits their party doesnt like?

I couldnt understand why he was going for an election when they have agreed it but its not in - then I decided - he is going whilst he has one slightly positive thing to say (I got a deal that the house backed) and one slightly negative thing to say (that other party / parties stopped it being implemented, they are against the will of the people) and is hoping that gets him through...

no chance - but it might mean he does less badly than JC who never comes out of anything with a whiff of positivity.... I presume Labour's position will be " we want 6 month delay to take this deal to the people to see if they approve it" (how many days will we be given to read the whole of the act?)

Shambolic. As usual. I had great fun (not) trying to explain the risks associated with Brexit to our Board in Singapore and Hong Kong yesterday.... " so we are due to leave in 10 days but we dont actually know if we will or what will be in place, if anything"....
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      10-23-2019, 07:11 AM   #1813
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Originally Posted by isleaiw1 View Post
But do MPs actually read all this stuff - dont they have underpaid politics student researcher types to precis it down into words they can understand, and then the whip comes along and tells them the bits their party doesnt like?

I couldnt understand why he was going for an election when they have agreed it but its not in - then I decided - he is going whilst he has one slightly positive thing to say (I got a deal that the house backed) and one slightly negative thing to say (that other party / parties stopped it being implemented, they are against the will of the people) and is hoping that gets him through...

no chance - but it might mean he does less badly than JC who never comes out of anything with a whiff of positivity.... I presume Labour's position will be " we want 6 month delay to take this deal to the people to see if they approve it" (how many days will we be given to read the whole of the act?)

Shambolic. As usual. I had great fun (not) trying to explain the risks associated with Brexit to our Board in Singapore and Hong Kong yesterday.... " so we are due to leave in 10 days but we dont actually know if we will or what will be in place, if anything"....
Whether they read it themselves or get it explained to them by staff it doesn't matter. What they need the time to do is consult businesses and people within their constituencies to see how the various terms within the agreement will affect the people they represent. Not doing that and rushing through a bill like this would mean they're neglecting the duty they have as MP's.
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      10-23-2019, 07:16 AM   #1814
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Whether they read it themselves or get it explained to them by staff it doesn't matter. What they need the time to do is consult businesses and people within their constituencies to see how the various terms within the agreement will affect the people they represent. Not doing that and rushing through a bill like this would mean they're neglecting the duty they have as MP's.
Didnt say they didnt need time, although lets be honest, that only affects the small number who wont just do what the whip says. The spin doctors need time to try and find some points to play political football with because the needs of the country are way down their list of priorities....

And that is how we got in this f***ing mess....
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      10-23-2019, 07:48 AM   #1815
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Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
Blackford's position is clear he represents a party that wants its own lemming moment and his country voted to stay but the SNP are not bell weathers in that place (I agree he is annoying if that's also your view)
Blackford is annoying but I was just using him as an example to illustrate the point that some MP's are shouting loud about how little time they have to scrutinise the proposed legislation when in reality it will make absolutely no difference whatsoever to how they vote. For them it's not really about the timetable at all, it's just about continuing to make the process as difficult and drawn-out as possible in the hope something might come along in the meantime and derail it altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
Yesterday the brexit secretary didn't know all the detail in the WA bill (again such a damning position is just brushed aside by the groomed) so please don't try and pretend that you do or that the HoC is a position to sign off on the thing without first reading properly it's not a Jack Reacher novel.....
I never pretended to know all the detail in the WA bill (I don't). However, if it was my job - and I had advisors and experts to call on as and when I needed them - I'd be pretty confident of knowing enough to form an opinion within a few weeks (which is the sort of extension I think the PM should ask for). As I said in a previous post, the WA which forms the basis for the legislation is largely unchanged from what was presented at the start of this year and therefore shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone; if we really have MP's who need at least another three months to get to grips with it they shouldn't be in the job IMO....
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      10-23-2019, 10:17 AM   #1816
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Is this thread a record yet in the OT section?
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      10-23-2019, 10:30 AM   #1817
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Is this thread a record yet in the OT section?
Rumour has it that @225 makes more in reputation points from this thread than we are paying to the EU in divorce settlement.
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      10-23-2019, 01:25 PM   #1818
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Is this thread a record yet in the OT section?
I was going to ask the Mods to take it down, but instead got an extension while I set up a Poll to decide it's fete.
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      10-24-2019, 05:15 AM   #1819
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What i love about this thread and indeed this sub-forum is that despite people having such differing opinions on matters, it has always (from what i can recall) remained extremely respectful. Just the right amount of debate in my opinion - very rare.

Other forums i visit are simply a mess - the attitude has driven me away completely.
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      10-24-2019, 05:22 AM   #1820
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Originally Posted by Eddamoo View Post
What i love about this thread and indeed this sub-forum is that despite people having such differing opinions on matters, it has always (from what i can recall) remained extremely respectful. Just the right amount of debate in my opinion - very rare.

Other forums i visit are simply a mess - the attitude has driven me away completely.
I totally agree.

While there have been some heated debates, there hasn't been all out war. This is the only forum where I've been able to read the "Brexit" thread.
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      10-24-2019, 05:34 AM   #1821
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What i love about this thread and indeed this sub-forum is that despite people having such differing opinions on matters, it has always (from what i can recall) remained extremely respectful. Just the right amount of debate in my opinion - very rare.

Other forums i visit are simply a mess - the attitude has driven me away completely.
I wrote the same a couple of years ago when I first joined.

Pretty much straight after all out war commenced with multiple banned members........
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      10-24-2019, 05:37 AM   #1822
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Blackford is annoying but I was just using him as an example to illustrate the point that some MP's are shouting loud about how little time they have to scrutinise the proposed legislation when in reality it will make absolutely no difference whatsoever to how they vote. For them it's not really about the timetable at all, it's just about continuing to make the process as difficult and drawn-out as possible in the hope something might come along in the meantime and derail it altogether.



I never pretended to know all the detail in the WA bill (I don't). However, if it was my job - and I had advisors and experts to call on as and when I needed them - I'd be pretty confident of knowing enough to form an opinion within a few weeks (which is the sort of extension I think the PM should ask for). As I said in a previous post, the WA which forms the basis for the legislation is largely unchanged from what was presented at the start of this year and therefore shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone; if we really have MP's who need at least another three months to get to grips with it they shouldn't be in the job IMO....
The extension asked for a maximum of three months, but could be ended sooner if agreement is reached. Seems sensible to me, better than going back looking stupid time after time and risking no deal if they can't get their acts together.
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      10-24-2019, 06:09 AM   #1823
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As one journo pointed out this morning, two days is a long time in British politics. The PM now wants to abandon the Brexit bill he wanted so much to pass on Tuesday for an election instead. Labour dont want the election they said they did want, and now want to pass the bill they tried to vote down on Tuesday.
Noone can be trusted. Both main parties are p*ss poor, to the core.
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      10-24-2019, 07:32 AM   #1824
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The extension asked for a maximum of three months, but could be ended sooner if agreement is reached. Seems sensible to me, better than going back looking stupid time after time and risking no deal if they can't get their acts together.
Superficially that does sound plausible if you believe the genuine reason for a lengthy extension is to scrutinise the proposed legislation; however, even then I'd say three months is excessive when most of the WA which underpins it has been common knowledge amongst MP's for months. Ken Clarke - a staunch pro-Remainer and consistent strong supporter of the EU over many years - suggested in the HoC earlier this week that potentially only a few additional days were required to give the bill the necessary scrutiny and that sounds more realistic to me.

However, let's be honest, detailed scrutiny of the legislation isn't what it's about for many. The likes of Ian Blackford are more transparent than most but there are plenty of other MP's who know fine well they won't vote to approve the bill regardless of what's in it - a lengthy extension isn't about giving them more time for review, it's about delaying things further in the hope something will come along in the meantime (a GE or a further referendum) to derail the Brexit process altogether.
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      10-24-2019, 08:20 AM   #1825
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Superficially that does sound plausible if you believe the genuine reason for a lengthy extension is to scrutinise the proposed legislation; however, even then I'd say three months is excessive when most of the WA which underpins it has been common knowledge amongst MP's for months. Ken Clarke - a staunch pro-Remainer and consistent strong supporter of the EU over many years - suggested in the HoC earlier this week that potentially only a few additional days were required to give the bill the necessary scrutiny and that sounds more realistic to me.

However, let's be honest, detailed scrutiny of the legislation isn't what it's about for many. The likes of Ian Blackford are more transparent than most but there are plenty of other MP's who know fine well they won't vote to approve the bill regardless of what's in it - a lengthy extension isn't about giving them more time for review, it's about delaying things further in the hope something will come along in the meantime (a GE or a further referendum) to derail the Brexit process altogether.
And isn't all that ok if the bill is shit, which by all appearances it is? It is broadly the same as the one we've already had, but with small changes to make it worse for both points of view.

If it hasn't been ok for over a year, a ticking clock doesn't mean it's suddenly right now.

Your assumption of just a few days means people scrutinise and then just approve. What's the point in that, may as well not scrutinise it at all if that's the assumption?

If it needs debate, or amendments, then it requires longer. And your objection that some MP's want to stop it seems irrelevant to me, so do 48% of the public, maybe more after 3 and a half LONG years. They deserve representation just as much as the 52%.
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      10-24-2019, 08:52 AM   #1826
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And isn't all that ok if the bill is shit, which by all appearances it is? It is broadly the same as the one we've already had, but with small changes to make it worse for both points of view.

If it hasn't been ok for over a year, a ticking clock doesn't mean it's suddenly right now.

Your assumption of just a few days means people scrutinise and then just approve. What's the point in that, may as well not scrutinise it at all if that's the assumption?

If it needs debate, or amendments, then it requires longer. And your objection that some MP's want to stop it seems irrelevant to me, so do 48% of the public, maybe more after 3 and a half LONG years. They deserve representation just as much as the 52%.
A lot of that is very valid. I'd just add for balance that of course it may be less than 48% now after 3.5 years of seeing how the establishment in this country and the EU have tried to prevent it....

I'm looking forward to the next government representing the ones that didnt elect them as much as those that did, can just see Corbyn going, "no we wont increase taxes for those that voted Tory, they need looking after too"....

Its a tough old world politics, you win or lose, get to do your stuff or go home....
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