F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > Technical Forums > N47 and N57 Turbodiesel Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Transfer Case Output Flange Failure, Cause Analysis, Prevention, and Repair
Extreme Powerhouse
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-25-2019, 10:27 AM   #67
Enabled
Lieutenant
195
Rep
586
Posts

Drives: 328xd Wagon
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

I have around 3000 miles on new transfer case. Obviously no problems yet, the original one lasted over 85k miles and wasn't 'finished' yet.

I will be pulling the driveshaft down to install the rubber flex disk (giubo) soon, so I can inspect how it's holding up.


Lots of city driving will accelerate the wear and failures, while highway miles protect it.

I agree when you said that xdelete won't help, because I have been running full 2wd mode for quite a while (using an alternative method to xdelete), and it didn't really help.

I've gotta pull the original TC out of the box in the garage and take close up pics with it cleaned. The wear pattern really suggests vibration wear.
I can also have my dad test the flange for hardness with his new tester, but I don't expect it to lead to many conclusions. It's obvious the flange is softer than the shaft, and you'd want it that way.

I expect all the dealer transfer case replacements have sent the worn transfer cases to BMW or ATC for rebuild.



Over the last few weeks, I have been thinking of methods to soften the engine torque at idle speeds (in the ecu tune) to prevent the vibrations while car is in drive and stopped. I have a few tricks to try.

It's interesting that the manual xdrive 4-cyl cars from Europe aren't reporting much of this.
__________________
-2014 328d Wagon 2WD, 8HP flash, self-tuned, 250hp/420ft-lbs.
Others
-E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods. 2000 Z3 Roady. 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg Modded. S52 Estoril Z3M Coupe.
Appreciate 0
      04-25-2019, 07:38 PM   #68
kdog_x
Second Lieutenant
108
Rep
252
Posts

Drives: 14 328d
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (0)

Got this done last night. May have gone a lil heavy... Had a little unexpected loctite oozed out into the groove for the flange retaining ring. That was fun to clean out! I used the primer on shaft and flange and it appears it hastens the curing process quite a bit. The loctite had gotten clumpy in the groove in the 15 minutes or so spent before I came up with a way to clean it out. Probably spent 2 hours trying to comfort myself that it was all out and that the ring was fully seated lol. Though with that loctite it probably shouldn't be able to move anyways.

We'll see how it holds up, the flange teeth looked pretty good for 25k. Did the rubber guibo as well. For getting the bearing protrusion distance right I grabbed a drill bit with a 4.75mm diameter (spec'd range was 4+2mm), made that job pretty easy. Original distance was about 7-8mm.

I was starting to feel a little hiccup when starting from a dead stop, Dont know if it was the guibo, the loctite, or both, but that seems to be gone. Only have put a few miles on so far though.
Attached Images
  
Appreciate 1
Enabled195.00

      04-25-2019, 09:55 PM   #69
CTMike
Enlisted Member
14
Rep
48
Posts

Drives: 2015 F31 328dX
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: CT

iTrader: (0)

Is this a job for a lift or jack stands? Iíd love to do this but itís probably a step beyond anything Iíve done on my vehicle before... first time for everything I suppose

Edit: went back to OP and saw it was all on a lift which sure makes things easier I imagine.

Last edited by CTMike; 04-25-2019 at 10:04 PM..
Appreciate 0
      04-26-2019, 10:05 AM   #70
kdog_x
Second Lieutenant
108
Rep
252
Posts

Drives: 14 328d
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (0)

No reason you couldn't do this on stands. That's how I replaced the TC twice. Just bought a quickjack for my latest session. Very happy with that purchase! All 4 corners up and level in 5 minutes.

Of course a lift is best for any under car work if you have access to one.
Appreciate 1
CTMike13.50

      04-26-2019, 12:02 PM   #71
CTMike
Enlisted Member
14
Rep
48
Posts

Drives: 2015 F31 328dX
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: CT

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog_x View Post
No reason you couldn't do this on stands. That's how I replaced the TC twice. Just bought a quickjack for my latest session. Very happy with that purchase! All 4 corners up and level in 5 minutes.

Of course a lift is best for any under car work if you have access to one.
Quickjack is awfully tempting.
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2019, 08:07 PM   #72
kdog_x
Second Lieutenant
108
Rep
252
Posts

Drives: 14 328d
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMike View Post
Quickjack is awfully tempting.
They drop the price to $999 every couple months at costco. I've been eyeballing and contemplating for almost a year, finally pulled the trigger lol. Doesn't go super high, but makes sliding under the car with a creeper easy, Perfect for all the covers under these beasts!
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2019, 09:00 AM   #73
CO_Steve
Second Lieutenant
90
Rep
216
Posts

Drives: '15 M235 Dinan S1 MT Slicktop
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

I see that an updated output flange is available for less than $150. My car has 60k miles on it and I'm thinking of doing this job, replacing the flange and guibo and adding the 660. Is it correct that the wear is mostly to the output flange and not the shaft? Any idea if the updated output flange 27107595650 is better at preventing this failure than 27107593440.
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2019, 02:49 PM   #74
kdog_x
Second Lieutenant
108
Rep
252
Posts

Drives: 14 328d
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (0)

Interesting, didnt realize they had an updated part available. It appears to be the flange from the ATC-45L. Not sure what's different about it though.

When I rebuilt my TC the shaft was also worn, which cut the life of the replacement flange down to 25k miles. So ideally you would probably want to replace it, but with the loctite holding it together you could possibly get away with leaving it.
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2019, 02:56 PM   #75
Enabled
Lieutenant
195
Rep
586
Posts

Drives: 328xd Wagon
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

There is no 'update'.

The flange posted above would not fit/wrong part number. Use only the last 7 of your vin and see the last available part number shown for your car. If you click on the part number, don't make the mistake of choosing parts that say "non-exchangable retrospectively" because they will not fit your car. RealOEM is a little misleading with that. You can also see that it's not installed on F30 at all. They have different bolt diameter and sizes.


Also, there will be a little bit of wear on the shaft when there is moderate to severe flange wear.
__________________
-2014 328d Wagon 2WD, 8HP flash, self-tuned, 250hp/420ft-lbs.
Others
-E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods. 2000 Z3 Roady. 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg Modded. S52 Estoril Z3M Coupe.
Appreciate 1
      04-28-2019, 03:29 PM   #76
CO_Steve
Second Lieutenant
90
Rep
216
Posts

Drives: '15 M235 Dinan S1 MT Slicktop
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

I see that now, thanks. The FCP Euro page shows the flange with a collection of washers. Does the spacing have to be set exactly and these washers are different thickness?
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2019, 05:02 PM   #77
Enabled
Lieutenant
195
Rep
586
Posts

Drives: 328xd Wagon
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CO_Steve View Post
I see that now, thanks. The FCP Euro page shows the flange with a collection of washers. Does the spacing have to be set exactly and these washers are different thickness?
Correct, they are different thicknesses, and you have to set it to the tolerances. I think kdog_x had posted the instructions, if not, I can post from newtis.info
__________________
-2014 328d Wagon 2WD, 8HP flash, self-tuned, 250hp/420ft-lbs.
Others
-E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods. 2000 Z3 Roady. 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg Modded. S52 Estoril Z3M Coupe.
Appreciate 0
      04-29-2019, 10:11 AM   #78
kdog_x
Second Lieutenant
108
Rep
252
Posts

Drives: 14 328d
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (0)

I actually did it by trial and error, stepping down in washer thickness until the circlip ring just fit. But that is much easier with the transfer box off of the car.

The newtis instructions are a little more calculated. I'd recommend going that route

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...r-box/KVymAjuL
Appreciate 1
Enabled195.00

      04-29-2019, 04:59 PM   #79
havesignals
New Member
11
Rep
10
Posts

Drives: 328d touring
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: toronto

iTrader: (0)

I was thinking of picking up a used TC for when mine finally let's go and making sure it has these modifications, and is ready to go. Local wrecker has one for $400, out of a 2014 320i. Is it same unit as my '14 328d? It's got 43k miles on it.
Appreciate 0
      04-29-2019, 06:17 PM   #80
Enabled
Lieutenant
195
Rep
586
Posts

Drives: 328xd Wagon
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by havesignals View Post
I was thinking of picking up a used TC for when mine finally let's go and making sure it has these modifications, and is ready to go. Local wrecker has one for $400, out of a 2014 320i. Is it same unit as my '14 328d? It's got 43k miles on it.
Yes, it would be the same unit.

FYI, when you change transfer cases and/or transfer case actuators, the control module has to be programmed. The transfer case has a calibration number printed on it that must be inputted into the module. If not, it will throw codes at you eventually for incorrect calibration, as it "measures" and builds up adaptations about internal tolerances.
__________________
-2014 328d Wagon 2WD, 8HP flash, self-tuned, 250hp/420ft-lbs.
Others
-E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods. 2000 Z3 Roady. 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg Modded. S52 Estoril Z3M Coupe.

Last edited by Enabled; 04-29-2019 at 06:38 PM..
Appreciate 1
      06-25-2019, 01:35 AM   #81
andrewc89
Colonel
andrewc89's Avatar
United_States
6239
Rep
2,759
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2 | 2015 328dx
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2017 M2  [5.00]
2015 328d xDrive  [0.00]
kdog_x Enabled

I'm not much of a DIY'er and i'm on a budget. Would having a local indy mechanic install the rubber guibo (by itself) be a good cost effective preventative maintenance measure for my car (328dx, 42k miles) or should I not bother unless I'm also replacing the flange and putting in the loctite?

and if it is a worth while upgrade, would i need the entire flex joint kit :

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...yABEgI9yvD_BwE

or just the flex joint itself :

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...iABEgKEYPD_BwE

Thanks for the help.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2019, 08:26 AM   #82
Enabled
Lieutenant
195
Rep
586
Posts

Drives: 328xd Wagon
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

If you're there changing the giubo, it's only another 20-30 minutes to remove, clean, and loctite the flange. Considering the transfer case is over $4000 now, it's good prevention.

Make sure you carefully select your giubo accounting for the size change (bolt circle diameter) that happened around 2015.

You can use the kit, although I don't think it's strictly necessary. Pay attention to the rubber bushing alignment as described earlier.
__________________
-2014 328d Wagon 2WD, 8HP flash, self-tuned, 250hp/420ft-lbs.
Others
-E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods. 2000 Z3 Roady. 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg Modded. S52 Estoril Z3M Coupe.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2019, 11:40 AM   #83
andrewc89
Colonel
andrewc89's Avatar
United_States
6239
Rep
2,759
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2 | 2015 328dx
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2017 M2  [5.00]
2015 328d xDrive  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enabled View Post
If you're there changing the giubo, it's only another 20-30 minutes to remove, clean, and loctite the flange. Considering the transfer case is over $4000 now, it's good prevention.

Make sure you carefully select your giubo accounting for the size change (bolt circle diameter) that happened around 2015.

You can use the kit, although I don't think it's strictly necessary. Pay attention to the rubber bushing alignment as described earlier.
I have a pre lci so I'm assuming part number 26117610061 as you mentioned is what I would need.

I am already feeling some slight hesitation and jerking on acceleration. Should I replace the flange or would the loctite be enough to remedy this?
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2019, 11:58 AM   #84
Enabled
Lieutenant
195
Rep
586
Posts

Drives: 328xd Wagon
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

Hesitation is very subjective, so I would make that decision once the driveshaft is free and out of the way. If there is only a little bit of play, enough for a wiggle, then a new flange and loctite would be ok. If there is a lot of wear, then often the shaft is worn too, so it will complicate things.

Loctite 660 is designed to fill in some wear and fix play, but I wouldn't depend on it if there is advanced wear.

The only reason why I inspected mine is because it was leaking fluid, due to play between the seal.
__________________
-2014 328d Wagon 2WD, 8HP flash, self-tuned, 250hp/420ft-lbs.
Others
-E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods. 2000 Z3 Roady. 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg Modded. S52 Estoril Z3M Coupe.
Appreciate 0
      06-26-2019, 10:26 AM   #85
mpm01
Enlisted Member
United_States
5
Rep
41
Posts

Drives: '15 328D grocery-getter
Join Date: May 2018
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

I knocked out the rubber UFO replaceent (upgrade) and Loctite 660 last night. I will add that I struggled more with my bluetooth speaker in the shop disconnecting than the actual wrenching. I do have lift, so freedom of movement and access to the back of the transfer case was in my advantage. It's not a tough task at all. The rubber UFO replacement definitely has flex that shows itself when tightening the flange bolts during install, so it should absorb more vibration coming from the motor.

I didn't take any pics as it was 100*+ in the shop and I was working as diligently as possible to knock this out and get to bed.
Appreciate 2
Enabled195.00
FaRKle!1013.50

      06-28-2019, 09:54 AM   #86
mpm01
Enlisted Member
United_States
5
Rep
41
Posts

Drives: '15 328D grocery-getter
Join Date: May 2018
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

Alright folks, what am I missing here? After the rubber guibo swap and loctite 660, I now have drivetrain vibrations on decel at speeds over 75 mph. These vibrations were not present prior.

Is there some fancy way to install these guibos? Anyone know the torque specs? I have a feeling something isn't correct because as it sits right now, the guibo as a zig-zag shape to it between the flange bolts and the driveshaft bolts.
Appreciate 0
      06-28-2019, 10:49 AM   #87
Enabled
Lieutenant
195
Rep
586
Posts

Drives: 328xd Wagon
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

Did you follow this for the driveshaft centering bushing? The protrusion distance has to be changed a little. See these instructions, about mid way.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...shaft/1Loe7egW

You may also have to release the midshaft nut to allow driveshaft length to change slightly.
__________________
-2014 328d Wagon 2WD, 8HP flash, self-tuned, 250hp/420ft-lbs.
Others
-E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods. 2000 Z3 Roady. 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg Modded. S52 Estoril Z3M Coupe.
Appreciate 0
      06-28-2019, 11:31 AM   #88
mpm01
Enlisted Member
United_States
5
Rep
41
Posts

Drives: '15 328D grocery-getter
Join Date: May 2018
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enabled View Post
Did you follow this for the driveshaft centering bushing? The protrusion distance has to be changed a little. See these instructions, about mid way.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...shaft/1Loe7egW

You may also have to release the midshaft nut to allow driveshaft length to change slightly.

Somewhat, but wasn't really sure about the centering sleeve protrusion. My rubber disc fit loosely onto the driveshaft, thus allowing it to move around up until tightening of the flange bolts. Does this mean 4+2 MM after the disc has been tightened to the driveshaft flange? If so, I'll need to add some washers between the disc and the driveshaft flange to reduce the distance.

I also reused the nuts, but with red loctite. Should I replace with nylock nuts from the hardware store?

I'm seeing now that I did NOT torque to 55 NM, which is 40 ft lbs. That may explain why the rubber disc was pulled at an angle to each bolt hole.

Last edited by mpm01; 06-28-2019 at 11:48 AM.. Reason: clarified questions
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:00 PM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST