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      09-13-2019, 11:35 AM   #1
luke1990
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Something holding the power back on 435d - troubleshoot

Hi guys,

Context: I had a what I considered a Stage 1 mild tune on my F36 435d GC - 357hp & 717Nm. Lots of tuners in UK/globally offer better - e.g. both Unicorn & Ecotune Scotland (w. DPF still intact) are 390hp so I wanted more.

I changed IC (ATM - like CSF, but better) & was running 12.2-12.4 100-200kph first, & then got in touch with Evolve to try their remote tune. When we discussed initially I got quoted 375-390 for x35d with IC & 740-50Nm.

But when I got the file, the car went to 12.6-8 100-200kph & showed like 350hp & 700Nm. Basically slower. There was a lot of back&forth, trying things/new files - e.g. got sent one that apparently did 11.8 100-200khp on another 435d, but on mine it barely went above stock (14.5s). And I was told that something is holding the power back that I should troubleshoot. I told them the car was faster before so at least the same would be nice, so got sent a file that does 12.4 100-200kph.

Now, the car pulls 4.2-4.3s 0-100 which is good, but the 100-200 is slower than it should be. I know sports displays are not accurate, but on the first pulls I see the power going to 260-70kW, & after gear change at faster speed its more like 250kW.

So the questions:
1) Do you think something could really be holding the power back, or rather its just a the tune itself? I'm asking since I could try e.g. Ecotune in Scotland which also I think does some remote, but don't want to waste money if the issue is someplace else
2) If something indeed could be holding the power back - any idea what? I don't get any codes/errors, so the only thing I'm thinking is to clean the DPF (don't want to get rid of it though). The car has only 43,000km on it though so not sure. Thoughts? What else could it be?

Thanks a ton for the help!

Best,
L.

Also - this is not to talk bad about Evolve - they spent tons of time w. me on this trying things out
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      09-13-2019, 12:13 PM   #2
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I know some people will have more specific info but I know the ZF8 has a torque limit on 3rd and 6th. I am guessing that's what you're running in to.

Here is a thread on it.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1486930
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      09-13-2019, 12:34 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacklinUSOB View Post
I know some people will have more specific info but I know the ZF8 has a torque limit on 3rd and 6th. I am guessing that's what you're running in to.

Here is a thread on it.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1486930
Thanks! I forgot to mention that I got a gearbox flash that removed the limits - or at least should have. The original I think is 760Nm, I now have 1000Nm. But even the 760Nm shouldn't be a problem since you're high in rev-range, its more likely pulling 500-640Nm up at 3,5-4,5k. So don't think it would be that but Ill check the forum

Edit: I read it - super interesting read! Will investigate that. However, I see other x35ds pulling well under 12s 100-200kph - so thats what I'm trying to figure out. Either they all have better gearbox flash, or better tune, or there is something wrong with the car

Last edited by luke1990; 09-13-2019 at 12:42 PM..
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      09-13-2019, 01:32 PM   #4
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Slightly unrelated, but I was curious to see how your performance changed after switching to ATM. Your previous data showed 100-200kph for CSF was 12.43s. After the swap to ATM that dropped to 12.2s? Nice.

4.2-4.3s is significantly faster than the 4.75s 0-100 you had before.

What tires are you running and what tires are the other vehicles that have lower times running?
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      09-13-2019, 04:07 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaRKle! View Post
Slightly unrelated, but I was curious to see how your performance changed after switching to ATM. Your previous data showed 100-200kph for CSF was 12.43s. After the swap to ATM that dropped to 12.2s? Nice.

4.2-4.3s is significantly faster than the 4.75s 0-100 you had before.

What tires are you running and what tires are the other vehicles that have lower times running?
It was night and day honestly vs. CSF. I got even better times up top - 12.2 vs 12.4 and there is very little additional lag down low. There is some, but not much. 0-100 was definitely better by 0.4-0.5 and was basically identical to what I had with stock IC. That is with LC engaged of course. Without, it was also quite similiar around 5s z 5.4-5.5 (if I recall correctly) of CSF.

So yes, ATM is by far better than CSF in my experience. Even the guy who swapped it in shop and drove it with me said there was a "huge turbo hole" down low. On the other hand - when I talked with Imran from Evolve, he said CSF always makes cars faster. Maybe I got a bad unit or something - I guess I will never know .

For tires - I don't think you can get much better - I have MPS4s - classic staggered 19s 225 r19 top 255 r19 back. And I have lighter aftermarket wheels - not forged, but the next best thing (OZ leggera). I don't detect any slippage at any time during the acceleration. And if there was slippage due to tires, I think you would see it in 0-100 not 100-200. 0-100 I have in line, 100-200 is the issue

Last edited by luke1990; 09-14-2019 at 04:37 AM..
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      09-13-2019, 04:08 PM   #6
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The sports gauges are only showing what the relevant ECUs understand from the data being processed. It may also be the case that the engine ECU data is being modified (spoofed) in the remap so as not to cause the TCU to manage torque (torque limitations).

You may also be experiencing one of the downsides of remote remapping - not being able to tweak the 'map in real-time, not being able to dyno the car before and after, and not being able to data log and plot the results. Just because a remap file 'should' achieve XYZ results, doesn't mean that these results will be achieved by your car.

I relate to your frustration. The modding experience can be a long one. My 'map has been fine, but my suspension journey has been infuriating and expensive.
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      09-14-2019, 04:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsey View Post
The sports gauges are only showing what the relevant ECUs understand from the data being processed. It may also be the case that the engine ECU data is being modified (spoofed) in the remap so as not to cause the TCU to manage torque (torque limitations).

You may also be experiencing one of the downsides of remote remapping - not being able to tweak the 'map in real-time, not being able to dyno the car before and after, and not being able to data log and plot the results. Just because a remap file 'should' achieve XYZ results, doesn't mean that these results will be achieved by your car.

I relate to your frustration. The modding experience can be a long one. My 'map has been fine, but my suspension journey has been infuriating and expensive.
I hope that the spoofing is not being done since its somebody like Evolve - which seem to be quite a reputable tuner.

The second point you make I fully understand, but also find quite interesting. What are some of the things that could make a tune do 11.8 100-200kph on one car and 14.5 on another? Or even a smaller discrepancies?

And back to the topic at hand - is there anything physically with the car that could hold the power back even with a good tune? E.g. / or aside from my idea of full/stuck DPF?
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      09-14-2019, 03:12 PM   #8
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Difficult to tell what could be causing the differences between the claimed outputs and the actual performance from your car.

There are several possible causes :

Boost leak.
Low boost, i.e. not leaking but boost pressure aspect of the remap not operating correctly.
Stuck (or poorly programmed) EGR.
Clogged DPF.
Dirty air filter.
IC seat soak.

Real-time diagnostics and adjustments to the remap while running on a dyno can identify whether there's a problem, and possible root causes.

You could try data logging the car yourself. A V-Gate V2 OBD dongle and the OBDfusion App can real-time log a wide range of data points which can then be exported to Excel. From there you can plot the data in graphically to see what's happening.
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      09-15-2019, 09:05 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsey View Post
Difficult to tell what could be causing the differences between the claimed outputs and the actual performance from your car.

There are several possible causes :

Boost leak.
Low boost, i.e. not leaking but boost pressure aspect of the remap not operating correctly.
Stuck (or poorly programmed) EGR.
Clogged DPF.
Dirty air filter.
IC seat soak.

Real-time diagnostics and adjustments to the remap while running on a dyno can identify whether there's a problem, and possible root causes.

You could try data logging the car yourself. A V-Gate V2 OBD dongle and the OBDfusion App can real-time log a wide range of data points which can then be exported to Excel. From there you can plot the data in graphically to see what's happening.
Thanks! Going 1-by-1:
Boost-leak -> likely not so, since I do get sufficient 0-100 times. And I don't hear any "boost-leaky" sounds
Low boost -> I think similar would apply - I would already see issues at 0-100
Stuck, or poorly programmed EGR -> could you elaborate? Don't understand it
DPF clog -> will try to clean
Dirty air filter -> would having a look at it identify a possible problem? Saw a tutorial how to change it, so I thing I could get to it
IC heat soak -> I have aftermarket ATM FMIC - it previously helped to push down 100-200 times vs stock by 0.5s so I don't think it could be the case

Also maybe an important point -> if I look at the sports displays it shows 250-270kW which is 340-368hp (not BHP). If I got a tune for 375-390hp - and I got any of the above issues, wouldn't the sports displays still show me 375-390hp? To my understanding, sports displays show the engine output - i.e. the power it is trying to make based on its setting. If thats the case, it would indicate the tune is not putting the power it should.

Or would it be the case that e.g. clogged DPF would make the engine show 350hp even though the tune tells it to make 375hp?
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      09-15-2019, 06:36 PM   #10
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No, the sports display data is a separate part of the tune, and once there is a tune on it, it will be off. It will be especially off when the tuner decalibrates maps. So it's not a great test.
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      09-17-2019, 02:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke1990 View Post
Thanks! Going 1-by-1:
Boost-leak -> likely not so, since I do get sufficient 0-100 times. And I don't hear any "boost-leaky" sounds
Low boost -> I think similar would apply - I would already see issues at 0-100
Stuck, or poorly programmed EGR -> could you elaborate? Don't understand it
DPF clog -> will try to clean
Dirty air filter -> would having a look at it identify a possible problem? Saw a tutorial how to change it, so I thing I could get to it
IC heat soak -> I have aftermarket ATM FMIC - it previously helped to push down 100-200 times vs stock by 0.5s so I don't think it could be the case

Also maybe an important point -> if I look at the sports displays it shows 250-270kW which is 340-368hp (not BHP). If I got a tune for 375-390hp - and I got any of the above issues, wouldn't the sports displays still show me 375-390hp? To my understanding, sports displays show the engine output - i.e. the power it is trying to make based on its setting. If thats the case, it would indicate the tune is not putting the power it should.

Or would it be the case that e.g. clogged DPF would make the engine show 350hp even though the tune tells it to make 375hp?
I do expect some of my suggestions to be easy to rule out - they'd most likely affect the car's performance across the range. But, sometimes it's best to eliminate as many things as possible.

Good to hear that there aren't any boost leaks (that you can hear).

Logging the boost pressures would be useful.

EGR - worth checking with the tuner to ensure that the EGR programming is correct i.e. at low/med/high revs and loads. I have my EGR programmed as fully closed 100% of the time.

DPF - a good quality fuel additive DPF/EGR cleaner may help. You could also use Carly to get a reading of the level of soot and ash in the DPF, and force a regen if the levels are high. If you do a lot of short journeys, and don't frequently take the car on a long run, DPF clogging can be an issue.

If the air filter is dirty you'd tend to notice a power restriction in the higher rev range. Changing the filter is very simple - literally a 2 minute job.

Given your good experience with the ATM IC it's unlikely to be causing a problem. Still worth doing some data logging to see whether it's causing a pressure differential.

At this stage my gut instinct is that the issues relate to the remap not being optimised, especially as it's been applied as a remote flash.
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      10-03-2019, 03:47 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsey View Post
I do expect some of my suggestions to be easy to rule out - they'd most likely affect the car's performance across the range. But, sometimes it's best to eliminate as many things as possible.

Good to hear that there aren't any boost leaks (that you can hear).

Logging the boost pressures would be useful.

EGR - worth checking with the tuner to ensure that the EGR programming is correct i.e. at low/med/high revs and loads. I have my EGR programmed as fully closed 100% of the time.

DPF - a good quality fuel additive DPF/EGR cleaner may help. You could also use Carly to get a reading of the level of soot and ash in the DPF, and force a regen if the levels are high. If you do a lot of short journeys, and don't frequently take the car on a long run, DPF clogging can be an issue.

If the air filter is dirty you'd tend to notice a power restriction in the higher rev range. Changing the filter is very simple - literally a 2 minute job.

Given your good experience with the ATM IC it's unlikely to be causing a problem. Still worth doing some data logging to see whether it's causing a pressure differential.

At this stage my gut instinct is that the issues relate to the remap not being optimised, especially as it's been applied as a remote flash.
Thanks for a reply! Was out so getting to it just now.
1. Ill try to find a way to do it - just got an android phone to flash xHP so hopefully I can make it happen
2. EGR - Ill get in touch with them and ask
3. DPF - apparently mine was quite clogged; for some reason even at 45000km only (I got the car with 30,000km so maybe the previous owner did a lot of short journeys - though with my driving it shouldnt really get that clogged); I had it cleaned, did some pulls after, but there is really no difference :/ - at least now I know its good
4. Air filter sounds like what it could be - I took some photos yesterday -> it doesn't seem though its too dirty. -> could you check if its fine? I cleaned the small bits out of it. Should I get a new one to change?



5. Yeah IC should be fine

I tend to now think its also the map. The only thing that has me a bit worried is how my DPF got so bad so fast, but performance wise that shouldnt be an issue now that its clean
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      10-03-2019, 06:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke1990 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsey View Post
I do expect some of my suggestions to be easy to rule out - they'd most likely affect the car's performance across the range. But, sometimes it's best to eliminate as many things as possible.

Good to hear that there aren't any boost leaks (that you can hear).

Logging the boost pressures would be useful.

EGR - worth checking with the tuner to ensure that the EGR programming is correct i.e. at low/med/high revs and loads. I have my EGR programmed as fully closed 100% of the time.

DPF - a good quality fuel additive DPF/EGR cleaner may help. You could also use Carly to get a reading of the level of soot and ash in the DPF, and force a regen if the levels are high. If you do a lot of short journeys, and don't frequently take the car on a long run, DPF clogging can be an issue.

If the air filter is dirty you'd tend to notice a power restriction in the higher rev range. Changing the filter is very simple - literally a 2 minute job.

Given your good experience with the ATM IC it's unlikely to be causing a problem. Still worth doing some data logging to see whether it's causing a pressure differential.

At this stage my gut instinct is that the issues relate to the remap not being optimised, especially as it's been applied as a remote flash.
Thanks for a reply! Was out so getting to it just now.
1. Ill try to find a way to do it - just got an android phone to flash xHP so hopefully I can make it happen
2. EGR - Ill get in touch with them and ask
3. DPF - apparently mine was quite clogged; for some reason even at 45000km only (I got the car with 30,000km so maybe the previous owner did a lot of short journeys - though with my driving it shouldnt really get that clogged); I had it cleaned, did some pulls after, but there is really no difference :/ - at least now I know its good
4. Air filter sounds like what it could be - I took some photos yesterday -> it doesn't seem though its too dirty. -> could you check if its fine? I cleaned the small bits out of it. Should I get a new one to change?



5. Yeah IC should be fine

I tend to now think its also the map. The only thing that has me a bit worried is how my DPF got so bad so fast, but performance wise that shouldnt be an issue now that its clean
Your air filter is fine. I change mine every ~9k miles and it's normally a lot darker than that.
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