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      10-17-2019, 09:14 AM   #67
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Apologies if I have missed it, but with the roads getting busier and busier I am really interested in how good the Autopilot system is? One of my friend's raves about it in his Model S, but I think he would say it was great even if it is crap...

Is it any good on a-roads or is it very much a motorway tool?

I understand it is not a substitute for driving per se, but that it deals with all the micro-adjustments we do as second nature but which takes lots of concentration.
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      10-17-2019, 09:19 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Witney View Post
Apologies if I have missed it, but with the roads getting busier and busier I am really interested in how good the Autopilot system is? One of my friend's raves about it in his Model S, but I think he would say it was great even if it is crap...

Is it any good on a-roads or is it very much a motorway tool?

I understand it is not a substitute for driving per se, but that it deals with all the micro-adjustments we do as second nature but which takes lots of concentration.
Thatcham highlighted one slight issue with Autopilot!

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      10-19-2019, 04:48 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Witney View Post
Apologies if I have missed it, but with the roads getting busier and busier I am really interested in how good the Autopilot system is? One of my friend's raves about it in his Model S, but I think he would say it was great even if it is crap...

Is it any good on a-roads or is it very much a motorway tool?

I understand it is not a substitute for driving per se, but that it deals with all the micro-adjustments we do as second nature but which takes lots of concentration.
When everything is going its way Tesla's Autopilot can certainly pull a few tricks and impress the crowds, but at other times it's erratic and IMHO dangerous. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that Tesla have managed a Brexit-esque trick here in selling a mound of steaming manure as something special. Say "Tesla" and most people think of self-driving, but in truth it's a million miles from that; and actually worse in some ways than systems on much cheaper cars.

I'll give some examples below, but first a few basics on the Autopilot. Tesla have two "Autopilot" (AP) options now. Basic AP and "Full Self Driving" (FSD). The hardware is the same, it's only a software difference. On the Model 3, the price difference is just shy of 6k!

Basic AP does this:

- Traffic-aware cruise control (TACC). That is, it'll keep a set speed and adjust that speed to suit the car in front. That includes taking the car down to a stop and accelerating away again.

- Autosteer. This will keep the car in its lane, but won't change lane. This must be done by the driver and autosteer is cancelled as you do so, needing to be re-enabled once in your new lane. Interestingly, Autosteer is officially classed as a "beta" feature, and you need to accept a few pages of disclaimers on the UI when you turn it on. Nice!

- Emergency lane departure assistance. This will autosteer the car back to its lane if you wander. It's always on, whether you've engaged AP or not.

- Automated emergency braking. This will autobrake for pedestrians and bikes. Again, an always-on feature.


FSD adds:

- Autosteer with lane change. This will move the car over into an outer lane to overtake a vehicle and then return to the original lane.

- Summon mode - the car can be moved without a driver in the car for purposes of parking and retrieving the car. In the US it'll do this over a decent range - e.g. from one side of a car park to the other; but in the UK it's limited to the driver being a metre or so from the car and will basically just help you park and retrieve the car in a small space such as a tight parking space or a small garage.

- Auto park - the usual reverse parking trick into a space.

- Navigate on autopilot - this is US-only and allows autosteer to take the car off a highway onto an exit ramp and from an on-ramp onto the highway.

My car has basic AP only. As said earlier, it certainly works, but it has some pretty big problems, all of which are present in the FSD version too:

- Phantom Braking. The car will sometimes just brake for no apparent reason. It happens often, pretty much every time I've used it in fact. It's annoying for sure, but sometimes it can be dangerous too. For example, I was going down the M40 at night. The road was pretty empty. I had TACC set (not autosteer) at 70mph. I came up behind a car in the middle lane so moved into the outside lane to overtake. I then started moving back and noticed someone barreling up behind me (turned out to be an M4 ( ). No problem I thought, I'll be out of his way by the time he reaches me. But then the car just braked, quite firmly, when I was halfway back to the middle lane. The guy in the M4 had to brake fairly smartly and probably thought I was a complete cock. If the speed difference were higher and the road wet, it could have ended in a collision. I was nowhere near any other car so I've no idea why it braked. I've driven a Golf with adaptive cruise and it had none of these problems.

- Autosteer sometimes gets confused by UK road markings. For example, it often tries to move to the right of the dotted lines around a bus stop, pushing the car into the opposite carriageway.

- Emergency lane departure assistance sometime triggers when it shouldn't. I was moving over to avoid a pedestrian walking on the edge of the road. As I straddled the white line, the car tried to pull me back into the pedestrian!

The on top of that, the system struggles with things like obscured cameras (e.g. by early morning dew or heavy rain) and if the sun is low in the sky.

Having said all that, basic TACC on a Motorway is just about acceptable in most conditions. The phantom braking remains, but if you're ready for it,you can take over quickly. However, using non-motorways is a bit more hit and miss. Basic TACC is mostly OK, but I wouldn't let Autosteer do its stuff on a city street.

Last edited by pdk42; 10-19-2019 at 04:59 PM..
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      10-20-2019, 01:02 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
Having said all that, basic TACC on a Motorway is just about acceptable in most conditions. The phantom braking remains, but if you're ready for it,you can take over quickly. However, using non-motorways is a bit more hit and miss. Basic TACC is mostly OK, but I wouldn't let Autosteer do its stuff on a city street.
I do wonder if the lower camera height on the 3 and/or the AP code not been optimised yet for HW 3.0 on the Model 3 is responsible for what your seeing in your car. I use AP daily on my commute on city roads.

With our HW 2.0 X phantom braking hasn't been an issue for 6 months now, and even on version 9.0 software its been very good on city streets. These videos are 6 months old now, and with the latest 10.0 software its actually even better, especially at been able to navigate the junction at the 3:20 point in the first video. The car now will move very deliberately to the left side of the lane if there is on coming traffic trying to turn right, it not it stays very central in the lane. When passing lorries on M ways the car now moves slightly to hug the right hand lane.

Perhaps its because I've experience just how BAD AP was when it was first introduced. To think idiots on YouTube were climbing into the back seat of the cars when the software was way more immature than it is now. Am surprised there hasn't been more fatalities with AP back in the day when the software let you keep your hands off the wheel for minutes at a time rather than the 10 seconds it gives you these days.

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      10-20-2019, 04:15 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witney View Post
Apologies if I have missed it, but with the roads getting busier and busier I am really interested in how good the Autopilot system is? One of my friend's raves about it in his Model S, but I think he would say it was great even if it is crap...

Is it any good on a-roads or is it very much a motorway tool?

I understand it is not a substitute for driving per se, but that it deals with all the micro-adjustments we do as second nature but which takes lots of concentration.
When everything is going its way Tesla's Autopilot can certainly pull a few tricks and impress the crowds, but at other times it's erratic and IMHO dangerous. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that Tesla have managed a Brexit-esque trick here in selling a mound of steaming manure as something special. Say "Tesla" and most people think of self-driving, but in truth it's a million miles from that; and actually worse in some ways than systems on much cheaper cars.

I'll give some examples below, but first a few basics on the Autopilot. Tesla have two "Autopilot" (AP) options now. Basic AP and "Full Self Driving" (FSD). The hardware is the same, it's only a software difference. On the Model 3, the price difference is just shy of £6k!

Basic AP does this:

- Traffic-aware cruise control (TACC). That is, it'll keep a set speed and adjust that speed to suit the car in front. That includes taking the car down to a stop and accelerating away again.

- Autosteer. This will keep the car in its lane, but won't change lane. This must be done by the driver and autosteer is cancelled as you do so, needing to be re-enabled once in your new lane. Interestingly, Autosteer is officially classed as a "beta" feature, and you need to accept a few pages of disclaimers on the UI when you turn it on. Nice!

- Emergency lane departure assistance. This will autosteer the car back to its lane if you wander. It's always on, whether you've engaged AP or not.

- Automated emergency braking. This will autobrake for pedestrians and bikes. Again, an always-on feature.


FSD adds:

- Autosteer with lane change. This will move the car over into an outer lane to overtake a vehicle and then return to the original lane.

- Summon mode - the car can be moved without a driver in the car for purposes of parking and retrieving the car. In the US it'll do this over a decent range - e.g. from one side of a car park to the other; but in the UK it's limited to the driver being a metre or so from the car and will basically just help you park and retrieve the car in a small space such as a tight parking space or a small garage.

- Auto park - the usual reverse parking trick into a space.

- Navigate on autopilot - this is US-only and allows autosteer to take the car off a highway onto an exit ramp and from an on-ramp onto the highway.

My car has basic AP only. As said earlier, it certainly works, but it has some pretty big problems, all of which are present in the FSD version too:

- Phantom Braking. The car will sometimes just brake for no apparent reason. It happens often, pretty much every time I've used it in fact. It's annoying for sure, but sometimes it can be dangerous too. For example, I was going down the M40 at night. The road was pretty empty. I had TACC set (not autosteer) at 70mph. I came up behind a car in the middle lane so moved into the outside lane to overtake. I then started moving back and noticed someone barreling up behind me (turned out to be an M4 ( ). No problem I thought, I'll be out of his way by the time he reaches me. But then the car just braked, quite firmly, when I was halfway back to the middle lane. The guy in the M4 had to brake fairly smartly and probably thought I was a complete cock. If the speed difference were higher and the road wet, it could have ended in a collision. I was nowhere near any other car so I've no idea why it braked. I've driven a Golf with adaptive cruise and it had none of these problems.

- Autosteer sometimes gets confused by UK road markings. For example, it often tries to move to the right of the dotted lines around a bus stop, pushing the car into the opposite carriageway.

- Emergency lane departure assistance sometime triggers when it shouldn't. I was moving over to avoid a pedestrian walking on the edge of the road. As I straddled the white line, the car tried to pull me back into the pedestrian!

The on top of that, the system struggles with things like obscured cameras (e.g. by early morning dew or heavy rain) and if the sun is low in the sky.

Having said all that, basic TACC on a Motorway is just about acceptable in most conditions. The phantom braking remains, but if you're ready for it,you can take over quickly. However, using non-motorways is a bit more hit and miss. Basic TACC is mostly OK, but I wouldn't let Autosteer do its stuff on a city street.
Very interesting post. As you say, Tesla's reputation with non-owners/non-enthusiasts is that autonomy is way ahead of everyone else.

If we can excuse a drift tangentially off topic to compare with another brand that has the opposite reputation for its advanced electronics...!

There are actually less features in AP than my Discovery has, plus it sounds like yours has more problems than the LR implementation. Over only 2000 miles so far, I've had no major issues with the driving aids. No phantom braking. My biggest complaint is that it brakes later than my natural early braking tendency, which is unsettling mentally when sat aboard 2.5 tonnes of metal, cow and plastic.

As an example, cruise assist on the LR keeps me centred in lane, then indicate to change lane (change lane manually) and it will re-engage automatically when it reaches the centre of the new lane. Park assist also standard, although I've no idea how to use it.

The one thing that does fool it is low, bright, sunlight on those former stud placement marks where roadworks used to be. Combined with badly worn real lane markings, it can be fooled into thinking those marks are the real lane markings. Easily compensated for as long as you are paying attention though, which of course we should be.
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      10-20-2019, 06:15 AM   #72
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No, I don't think so. Fuel cells still have very poor efficiency compared to EVs and the logistics of setting up a Hydrogen distribution network are enormous. At least EV charging infrastructure is in principle simple - there are cables and power practically everywhere already.
If his claims are true, maybe this this be the way forward. This guy claims his fuel cell will do 1500 miles (if they were equivalent to Tesla size) on a charge, is lighter than lithium iron batteries and is made from recycled aluminium. Rather than recharging, you replace which apparently takes 90 seconds - although I can't see a Tesla sized battery taking 90 seconds to replace.

Link to Russian Website

The drama of the petrol still does it for me though.
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      10-20-2019, 07:53 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by MashinBenzin View Post

There are actually less features in AP than my Discovery has, plus it sounds like yours has more problems than the LR implementation.
The biggest advantage/disadvantage Tesla have over the likes of RangeRover is they are developing the software codes them selves rather than rely on a third party- like Mobile eye.

The current AP code is much much better than 18 months ago, and improving monthly. It also appears even with the releases of 'advanced summon' the code is still written to leverage the processing power of the AP 2.0 CPUs, where as all current Teslas sold including the Model 3 are equipped with AP 3.0 CPUs.

If you believe Tesla the 3.0 CPUs is much more powerful than the 2.0 CPUs, and almost certain running the current code in some kind of emulation mode. The best way to think of it is like when games consoles migrate across a generation, for about 6 month you get games that run on both old and new consoles, but don't really take advantage of the consoles hardware, and usually it takes programmers another 18 months to really understand how to code efficiently to realise the potential of the new hardware.

To some people Tesla's approach is mad, as no other car company has ever done this, but anyone whos use to how tech companies operate will see what Tesla is doing as pretty much the norm. The games coming now for the Xbox One are much better interms of content/graphics compared to launch titles, its simply how the tech industry works, software takes time to mature. Anyone complaining about AP now hasn't experienced how bad it was previously!!

Interestingly what these cars can already 'see' is crazy, but I presume the code simply doesn't know how to react to all the objects it can detect. I fully expect AP to make big improvements over the next 12 months, I don't think we'll see 'Full Self Driving' anytime soon, but I do expect it to see/stop for traffic lights by next year this time.


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      10-20-2019, 08:52 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
When everything is going its way Tesla's Autopilot can certainly pull a few tricks and impress the crowds, but at other times it's erratic and IMHO dangerous. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that Tesla have managed a Brexit-esque trick here in selling a mound of steaming manure as something special. Say "Tesla" and most people think of self-driving, but in truth it's a million miles from that; and actually worse in some ways than systems on much cheaper cars.

I'll give some examples below, but first a few basics on the Autopilot. Tesla have two "Autopilot" (AP) options now. Basic AP and "Full Self Driving" (FSD). The hardware is the same, it's only a software difference. On the Model 3, the price difference is just shy of 6k!

Basic AP does this:

- Traffic-aware cruise control (TACC). That is, it'll keep a set speed and adjust that speed to suit the car in front. That includes taking the car down to a stop and accelerating away again.

- Autosteer. This will keep the car in its lane, but won't change lane. This must be done by the driver and autosteer is cancelled as you do so, needing to be re-enabled once in your new lane. Interestingly, Autosteer is officially classed as a "beta" feature, and you need to accept a few pages of disclaimers on the UI when you turn it on. Nice!

- Emergency lane departure assistance. This will autosteer the car back to its lane if you wander. It's always on, whether you've engaged AP or not.

- Automated emergency braking. This will autobrake for pedestrians and bikes. Again, an always-on feature.


FSD adds:

- Autosteer with lane change. This will move the car over into an outer lane to overtake a vehicle and then return to the original lane.

- Summon mode - the car can be moved without a driver in the car for purposes of parking and retrieving the car. In the US it'll do this over a decent range - e.g. from one side of a car park to the other; but in the UK it's limited to the driver being a metre or so from the car and will basically just help you park and retrieve the car in a small space such as a tight parking space or a small garage.

- Auto park - the usual reverse parking trick into a space.

- Navigate on autopilot - this is US-only and allows autosteer to take the car off a highway onto an exit ramp and from an on-ramp onto the highway.

My car has basic AP only. As said earlier, it certainly works, but it has some pretty big problems, all of which are present in the FSD version too:

- Phantom Braking. The car will sometimes just brake for no apparent reason. It happens often, pretty much every time I've used it in fact. It's annoying for sure, but sometimes it can be dangerous too. For example, I was going down the M40 at night. The road was pretty empty. I had TACC set (not autosteer) at 70mph. I came up behind a car in the middle lane so moved into the outside lane to overtake. I then started moving back and noticed someone barreling up behind me (turned out to be an M4 ( ). No problem I thought, I'll be out of his way by the time he reaches me. But then the car just braked, quite firmly, when I was halfway back to the middle lane. The guy in the M4 had to brake fairly smartly and probably thought I was a complete cock. If the speed difference were higher and the road wet, it could have ended in a collision. I was nowhere near any other car so I've no idea why it braked. I've driven a Golf with adaptive cruise and it had none of these problems.

- Autosteer sometimes gets confused by UK road markings. For example, it often tries to move to the right of the dotted lines around a bus stop, pushing the car into the opposite carriageway.

- Emergency lane departure assistance sometime triggers when it shouldn't. I was moving over to avoid a pedestrian walking on the edge of the road. As I straddled the white line, the car tried to pull me back into the pedestrian!

The on top of that, the system struggles with things like obscured cameras (e.g. by early morning dew or heavy rain) and if the sun is low in the sky.

Having said all that, basic TACC on a Motorway is just about acceptable in most conditions. The phantom braking remains, but if you're ready for it,you can take over quickly. However, using non-motorways is a bit more hit and miss. Basic TACC is mostly OK, but I wouldn't let Autosteer do its stuff on a city street.
Having been in my mates car, i'd agree with many of them points. He's paid for the Full Auto Pilot where at the moment I don't see where the money is in it. The phantom braking is most definitely an issue with the Model 3, we were out on a relatively empty motorway, clear sunny day and it just kept randomly braking.

I really doesn't seem to like parked cars either, if you're going down a road where theres a line of them and one is sticking out a bit further than another it'll over react and slam on.

I also think it over reacts to cars slowing down in front, rather than gradually braking it'll just anchor on the brakes rather than gradually.

The lane change seems to work OK, however the On/Off ramps is a bit dodgy. When coming off the motorway it'll not know what to do when the slip road splits into two lanes - it'll hover in the middle then jerk to whichever lane - again not very smooth.

So for 5k, I really don't see the value in the system at this current time. Obviously he's locked in at that price, there's just been a price increase for full AP to 5.8k. But to pay that then have to wait 12 months to get new features seems daft.
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      10-20-2019, 09:35 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by EvilDrPorkChop View Post
But to pay that then have to wait 12 months to get new features seems daft.
'Full self driving' was actually made available in late 2016, for an additional 2800 to the 3500 needed for AP.

The first time we'll see any proper features related to FSD will be traffic light response, so 4 years+ wait for some!!
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      10-20-2019, 11:16 AM   #76
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The only feature I find of any real use use is the Automated emergency braking which I had on my previous Mercedes but sadly not on this BMW. Over the years I have been smacked twice in the butt by cars at roundabouts. I am waiting to pull out and the guy behind is looking right and thinks I have gone if I move forward a bit, so he's looking right and keeps moving and 'smack' another new tailgate for Fuzzybunny. Automated emergency braking on the car behind me will stop that happening and TBH its the only auto system I would trust. Although a self driving flying car would be good, no pedestrians, cyclists, or confusing road markings up there! Might need a parachute though!
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      10-20-2019, 11:48 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by gangzoom View Post
'Full self driving' was actually made available in late 2016, for an additional 2800 to the 3500 needed for AP.

The first time we'll see any proper features related to FSD will be traffic light response, so 4 years+ wait for some!!
Which is a bit daft isn't it? You might not have the car by the time the new features come out!
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      10-22-2019, 04:49 AM   #78
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If you get an EV make sure you don't pick a colour that will not clash with the green number plates being planned:
http://https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50122268
I had to check it wasn't April 1st when I saw that... Love the RAC quote:
"there are question marks as to whether drivers would see this as a badge of honour or alternatively it could foster resentment among existing drivers of petrol and diesel vehicles"... err, No & No
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      10-22-2019, 01:32 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by skipraider View Post
If his claims are true, maybe this this be the way forward. This guy claims his fuel cell will do 1500 miles (if they were equivalent to Tesla size) on a charge, is lighter than lithium iron batteries and is made from recycled aluminium. Rather than recharging, you replace which apparently takes 90 seconds - although I can't see a Tesla sized battery taking 90 seconds to replace.

Link to Russian Website

The drama of the petrol still does it for me though.
That same story was in The Daily Mail (may it rot in hell). Junk story. The guy is peddling a tech that's over 50 years old - the Aluminium-Air battery. It's not even a battery TBH since it's single use - basically it's burning aluminium to make aluminium oxide but doing so via electrodes and an electrolyte.
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      10-23-2019, 05:30 AM   #80
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EVs may be the future but I'm not going to give my money to Tesla for the very reasons in the first post.

Tesla is a great technology (although even some of that is flakey) company but that's where it ends.
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