[Craig-SM]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

I read that as Yes and not answered.

Which part not answered?

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

You may have noticed that Labour councils are now wanting to discuss if these statues should be moved. These are the same councils that in many cases have been Labour for decades such as Bristol and never moved them before when requested. Now they make out like they are wrong to be there and try to create division from the recent BLM marches. Maybe the residents of these places who felt so strongly about the statue should have voted for people who were genuinely interested in them and it could have been moved. Along with move details of how Colston made his fortune and where the money went.
Now it has been removed and will probably never appear again. The details will be lost to history and in decades to come people will wonder around the docks and halls his money built and think this is great without knowing it was from the misery of slavery.

I've mentioned this on the Netflix thread but watch Flint Town and you will realise the problems in America go way beyond racism and blaming it all on the police is just a cop out, no pun intended.

I don’t think anyone is blaming it all on the police. There are plenty to blame, not least the president fanning the flames

In fact I feel extreme sympathy for most of the police officers having to deal with this.

I also think that at least two of the officers should be released immediately. Two of them had only been officers a few days. Hard to expect them to control a known wannabe tough guy.

The perpetrator’s charges should be increased further. Turns out they’d worked security together at a club and the policeman was a known bully at that time and they clashed a few times. Adds another dimension to his intentions for me.

Good that you’ve turned this party political. Just out of interest, did you have a party in mind that would have cared about the community and would have moved them on?

[Craig-SM]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I don’t think anyone is blaming it all on the police. There are plenty to blame, not least the president fanning the flames

In fact I feel extreme sympathy for most of the police officers having to deal with this.

I also think that at least two of the officers should be released immediately. Two of them had only been officers a few days. Hard to expect them to control a known wannabe tough guy.

The perpetrator’s charges should be increased further. Turns out they’d worked security together at a club and the policeman was a known bully at that time and they clashed a few times. Adds antiheroes dimension to his intentions for me.

Good that you’ve turned this party political. Just out of interest, did you have a party in mind that would have cared about the community and would have moved them on?

Yes, I read that too about Chauvin and it seems to be more he was a bully in uniform with a personal beef against George Floyd, more the reason for him to be charged with murder. I hadn't heard about the other officers there.

BLM are wanting the police to be defunded so they seem to be blaming them collectively.

I just hate parties that make political capital out of situation whilst ignoring their own lack of action on the issue. As for who could have moved it on there was nothing stopping someone for standing as an independent candidate on having the statue removed or from BLM attending council meetings and making it a priority.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

Which part not answered?

This bit:

I've realised that just being fair myself is not enough. I need to do more and I've promised myself that I will. How about you?

[JR1664]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

You may have noticed that Labour councils are now wanting to discuss if these statues should be moved. These are the same councils that in many cases have been Labour for decades such as Bristol and never moved them before when requested. Now they make out like they are wrong to be there and try to create division from the recent BLM marches. Maybe the residents of these places who felt so strongly about the statue should have voted for people who were genuinely interested in them and it could have been moved. Along with move details of how Colston made his fortune and where the money went.
Now it has been removed and will probably never appear again. The details will be lost to history and in decades to come people will wonder around the docks and halls his money built and think this is great without knowing it was from the misery of slavery.

I've mentioned this on the Netflix thread but watch Flint Town and you will realise the problems in America go way beyond racism and blaming it all on the police is just a cop out, no pun intended.

Spot on

The Major of Bristol is black and has been in post for four years. You would think if he was that concerned about the statue it would have been history long before being lobbed in the dock. (In other words put in the museum)

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

Yes, I read that too about Chauvin and it seems to be more he was a bully in uniform with a personal beef against George Floyd, more the reason for him to be charged with murder. I hadn't heard about the other officers there.

BLM are wanting the police to be defunded so they seem to be blaming them collectively.

I just hate parties that make political capital out of situation whilst ignoring their own lack of action on the issue. As for who could have moved it on there was nothing stopping someone for standing as an independent candidate on having the statue removed or from BLM attending council meetings and making it a priority.

Interesting points about Chauvin and the other cops.

Bristol's an interesting place, it's a bit of a mystery how that statue remained. Especially in such a multi-cultural and fairly left leaning city.

One of the main entertainment centres is Colston Hall, which announced it would rename a year or two back. There are numerous streets named after him, two very good and multi-cultural private schools. Then we have one of the main roads for bars and restaurants in a generally cool area - Whiteladies Road, which leads into Black Boy Hill.

To obliterate the slaving history/influence altogether would take a lot of doing. But the statue was just too much of a provocation I think.

[Craig-SM]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

This bit:

I've realised that just being fair myself is not enough. I need to do more and I've promised myself that I will. How about you?

As I don't treat people differently based on the colour of their skin I'm not sure how I can be more fair. If I treat coloured people more favourable, even if they're an arse, than white people then it would be treated them fairly.
If someone around me treats someone else unfairly I normally make my feelings known.

How exactly are you doing more?

[JR1664]

Down our way the loony left have decided to pick on Baden Powell

https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/ne...hour-security/

It transpires this totally innocuous statue appeared on a far left socialist website as something to target. The liberal council leader did a knee jerk and said she'd remove it, blaming it on Police advice who quickly came back and said they didn't advise her to remove it.

I popped down today to view the scene and feelings are running high to say the least so the council have backed down.

The worlds gone mad.

[225]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

So we’re saying that the term community leaders means sportsmen, politicians and celebrities? A new term to me, but I’ll buy it, you win.

Interesting to see how my post has been interpreted...
The term community is quite widely used on the news and reporting rightly or wrongly and by that I meant the people who organise the marches.

Interesting to see the way some seem to think what I was referring to had anything to do with skin colour and start a tirade.

I certainly wish there was a way for community leaders or anyone else for that matter to be able to stop the edl going anywhere but there you go.

My actual point was the police are yet again going to have to police a huge gathering in the middle of a pandemic that will likely get violent. I didn't want my family member having to be at even more risk as the yobs from the edl meet the small number of yobs who ruin the peaceful marches again with the virus still prevalent. Sorry if that offends anyone.

[Craig-SM]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Interesting points about Chauvin and the other cops.

Bristol's an interesting place, it's a bit of a mystery how that statue remained. Especially in such a multi-cultural and fairly left leaning city.

One of the main entertainment centres is Colston Hall, which announced it would rename a year or two back. There are numerous streets named after him, two very good and multi-cultural private schools. Then we have one of the main roads for bars and restaurants in a generally cool area - Whiteladies Road, which leads into Black Boy Hill.

To obliterate the slaving history/influence altogether would take a lot of doing. But the statue was just too much of a provocation I think.

Again, with the ill feeling to the statue that is has taken recent events to have it removed. Why had the council not done anything?

[Hooded]

Brave man..

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by 225

Interesting to see how my post has been interpreted...
The term community is quite widely used on the news and reporting rightly or wrongly and by that I meant the people who organise the marches.

Interesting to see the way some seem to think what I was referring to had anything to do with skin colour and start a tirade.

I certainly wish there was a way for community leaders or anyone else for that matter to be able to stop the edl going anywhere but there you go.

My actual point was the police are yet again going to have to police a huge gathering in the middle of a pandemic that will likely get violent. I didn't want my family member having to be at even more risk as the yobs from the edl meet the small number of yobs who ruin the peaceful marches again with the virus still prevalent. Sorry if that offends anyone.

Just to be clear, absolutely no offence from what you wrote, it just spun a thought in my head about the routine use of community leaders. Spiralled from there...

I feel terrible for our police and it's a great shame that the EDL exist to use this as another platform/excuse.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

As I don't treat people differently based on the colour of their skin I'm not sure how I can be more fair. If I treat coloured people more favourable, even if they're an arse, than white people then it would be treated them fairly.
If someone around me treats someone else unfairly I normally make my feelings known.

How exactly are you doing more?

Making feelings known good.

I've actually swung to a position that some positive discrimination is needed to start to resolve this. Plus firmer tackling of anything slightly indicative of racism. That's my do more list summed up.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

Again, with the ill feeling to the statue that is has taken recent events to have it removed. Why had the council not done anything?

I'd imagine council minutes are public record, but I haven't looked. I'm not fussed about statues, as I might have mentioned.

[Kal101]

So here’s my tuppence for what it’s worth.

I’ve experienced racism, more so in my early years , including institutional racism and have been on the receiving end of racial violence. Nothing like I experience in today’s society.

There’s a lot of do gooders who cause more issues in their attempts to be “politically correcter”. Sometimes just leave things alone and just let people get on with life.

Have the statues etc every bothered me No.

Do I think violent actions have helped. No in fact they’ll probably fan the fires and make things worse. Personally I think a lot of the protests have been hijacked by a lot of people just looking for a good fight and a free pair of trainers.

[Craig-SM]

I don't agree with positive discrimination, it ends up counter productive. Treat everyone the same and the best person for the position.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

I don't agree with positive discrimination, it ends up counter productive. Treat everyone the same and the best person for the position.

I don't believe that to be the case, unconscious bias plays a part. It may be enough that a light touch of positive discrimination helps balance that. It's done a fair bit for the cause of sex equality. It's probably the wrong term though, I really just mean building balanced teams, including leadership teams. I.e if you have a team of ten white males, you probably need to think about addressing that. Ultimately for the benefit of the organisation too by bringing different thinking in.

None of this relates just to recent events and BLM, I've been hearing this at management conferences for some time. BLM just emphasises some of the thinking and realities.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

I don't agree with positive discrimination, it ends up counter productive. Treat everyone the same and the best person for the position.

How do you determine the best person?

The one with the most qualifications and most experience? Good argument. In my industry that is generally a 40 year old white man.

If others that aren’t traditionally working in that sector, women and ethnic minorities for example, aren’t sometimes helped along by positive discrimination, how will they ever become the best candidate for the position?

I sat at our management conference in January and the HR Director stood up and did a section on equality and diversity. On the stage with him were 7 other directors. All white, all men, and all aged between 38 and 50. The irony was pointed out to him pretty quickly and it was uncomfortable to watch him wriggle. A bit like Matt Hancock this week.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

I'm not fussed about statues, as I might have mentioned.

The statues themselves aren't really the point though, it's more the perceived lack of respect for UK history that the vandalism of some of them conveys. As an example, it's not long since we celebrated VE Day and a recording of a speech from Churchill was central to those proceedings; however, here we are only a matter of weeks later and we have demonstrators defacing his statue and seeking to portray him as a racist (conveniently ignoring the fact they only have the right to demonstrate and protest because of people like Churchill and the government and armed forces he led).

I felt genuine disgust at the way George Floyd was treated and I really hope the perpetrator gets what he deserves. However, if protestors here in the UK think they're going to build a consensus against racism by going after the memory of people like Churchill or James Cook I think they're sadly mistaken - IMO that's far more likely to alienate people than gain their support.

[Craig-SM]

Yes, it normally comes down to qualifications, experience and fit within the team. Most people start at the bottom for their qualification and lack of experience. As they gain in experience they are considered for better positions that help the company and everyone else in it. If you put someone in a place that would have been better suited to another candidate just because of their skin colour then no one benefits from it.

Who would you like to be the surgeon operating on your life threatening condition.Someone who has done the operation many times with a great track record. Alternatively you could have the positive discrimination candidate who has done the surgery on a dummy and knows the theory but yet to have experience on an actual person. What's your choice?

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by JNW1

if protestors here in the UK think they're going to build a consensus against racism by going after the memory of people like Churchill or James Cook I think they're sadly mistaken - IMO that's far more likely to alienate people than gain their support.

Agree

Funnily enough I just saw this on FB..

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Hooded

Agree

Funnily enough I just saw this on FB..

Yeah, let’s get him. We could all chase him down the street, beat him a bit maybe.

I’m sure course of action will teach em and stop all the protests.

Or maybe we could just quietly report him to the police and let them deal with it quietly. I think I’d prefer that route to a lynch mob fuelled by social media outrage.