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      05-15-2019, 12:11 PM   #1
Solid67
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Boost Control Options

Just wondering what options are available for boost control if you are running a flash tune. I know people do flash/JB4 combo but the JB4 is expensive just to be a boost controller.
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      05-20-2019, 12:04 PM   #2
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Bumping this back up. Jeez, so it seems there are no other boost control options besides the JB4? Is that what I should be lead to believe?

Has anyone used the Turbo Smart E2 Boost Controller?
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      05-20-2019, 02:39 PM   #3
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What are you trying to achieve by running a boost controller?
The better option is running a flash tuning platform like BM3 or MHD and having different maps for different octane/ethanol mixtures.
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      05-20-2019, 03:43 PM   #4
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I'm not smart enough to have a technical discussion on this but from what I have read from the various tuners who post here is that you do not control boost, you request torque. Boost is something that is in response to the torque request. So I would conclude you can't just turn up the boost and get what you want. Piggybacks try to fool the system into thinking the boost is lower than it really is to trigger higher boost.
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      05-20-2019, 04:56 PM   #5
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What car/engine/wastegate/turbo are you working with?
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      05-20-2019, 05:40 PM   #6
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I'm with dotfiles, what are you actually trying to do? You don't need a boost controller if you run a flash tune (the flash is 100x better, first hand experience doing both).

As for boost controllers, there is JB4 and Active Autowerke Active 8. JB4 will allow you to run WMI, and is typically the only reason that you'd want a controller + tune. AA is just more power for a non-tune setup. If it's for logging, BM3 has a dongle that you can use as well for mobile devices.
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      05-21-2019, 05:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett530 View Post
I'm not smart enough to have a technical discussion on this but from what I have read from the various tuners who post here is that you do not control boost, you request torque. Boost is something that is in response to the torque request. So I would conclude you can't just turn up the boost and get what you want. Piggybacks try to fool the system into thinking the boost is lower than it really is to trigger higher boost.
This guy gets it.

I thought the reason people combine JB4 with flashes is so that the boost is always on target (on top of being used for WMI). Only thing I'm doing with my car is spirited street and backroad driving with the occasional race nights. I just want to make sure I am getting the most power out of the stock turbo. Don't plan on upgrading turbos anytime soon. I figured the Turbo Smart E2 boost controller or something similar would be a much cheaper option than a JB4.
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      05-21-2019, 05:01 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Fuel-It! View Post
What car/engine/wastegate/turbo are you working with?
2019 m240i xdrive M Performance Edition
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      05-21-2019, 06:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid67 View Post
This guy gets it.

I thought the reason people combine JB4 with flashes is so that the boost is always on target (on top of being used for WMI). Only thing I'm doing with my car is spirited street and backroad driving with the occasional race nights. I just want to make sure I am getting the most power out of the stock turbo. Don't plan on upgrading turbos anytime soon. I figured the Turbo Smart E2 boost controller or something similar would be a much cheaper option than a JB4.
If you want something cheaper than a JB4 that will just trick the car into making more boost, get a JB+.

However, I would recommend going with a flash tune. Many people have moved away from the piggybacks now that there are many flash tuning options for the B58 because they are more consistent, keep your transmission shifting as smooth as stock, and prevent throttle closures; all of which are problems you may see with piggybacks. Plus they make more power
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      05-21-2019, 10:57 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dotfiles View Post
If you want something cheaper than a JB4 that will just trick the car into making more boost, get a JB+.

However, I would recommend going with a flash tune. Many people have moved away from the piggybacks now that there are many flash tuning options for the B58 because they are more consistent, keep your transmission shifting as smooth as stock, and prevent throttle closures; all of which are problems you may see with piggybacks. Plus they make more power
The really serious cars use both because there are a lot of limitations of flash tuning only right now, just like there are always limitations JB4 only. Put them both together and throw in free maps, and you've got the best of both worlds.
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      05-22-2019, 08:20 AM   #11
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Limitations how? I ran a piggy back for 2 years, and now with the BM3:
1) Never seen a fuel cap limit hit yet.
2) No longer get torque limitations on gear changes.
3) Higher power until redline.

Other than WMI (water meth injection) or perhaps running a larger turbo, I'd need more info why a "stock car -- downpipe, intake, exhaust" would ever need more than just a flash. The JB4 is just massaging the boost numbers to allow the DME to give you higher boost before the wastegate opens. Something that the flash tune can change now as well.

Unless the issue is flash tuning is cutting into your piggyback sales.
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      05-22-2019, 10:56 AM   #12
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More flash sales just means more people who will need our B58 fueling upgrades sooner or later so no complaints here!

Off the top of my head active safety systems are not as effective flash only. The JB4 can monitor boost, fuel trims, AFR, fuel pressure, and abort a run at the first sign of problems. The flash tuning logic will let you pull along with tuning out of whack. This has become a big issue with the B58 due to the fuel pump limitations we're finding especially on E85.

Allows on the fly map changes without having to reflash including boost by gear changes on the fly which are critical to dialing in for good track times. The ability to change over to a VALET map on the fly is useful also.

JB4 provides full time in dash gauges for boost, air/fuel ratio, timing, exhaust flap changes, etc. And logging to your smart phone full time without having to install separate hardware for it.

Ability to auto tune boost control, boost targets based on fuel mixtures, eliminate most of the requirements for continual custom tuning that comes with flash maps.

The biggest thing though is the level of tuning and flash mapping provided free of charge by BMS.

Last edited by Fuel-It!; 05-22-2019 at 11:17 AM..
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      05-22-2019, 05:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid67 View Post
This guy gets it.

I thought the reason people combine JB4 with flashes is so that the boost is always on target (on top of being used for WMI). Only thing I'm doing with my car is spirited street and backroad driving with the occasional race nights. I just want to make sure I am getting the most power out of the stock turbo. Don't plan on upgrading turbos anytime soon. I figured the Turbo Smart E2 boost controller or something similar would be a much cheaper option than a JB4.
Why do you care about boost always being on target? We're load/torque-based. If load request is 500nm and you can achieve that with 3 less PSI of boost than target, you'll never hit target. In BM3 flash tuning world, target is more like a fail-safe. It shouldn't hit target (ceiling), but if it does, your car will cut throttle to avoid harming the engine.
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      05-23-2019, 08:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuel-It! View Post
Off the top of my head active safety systems are not as effective flash only. The JB4 can monitor boost, fuel trims, AFR, fuel pressure, and abort a run at the first sign of problems. The flash tuning logic will let you pull along with tuning out of whack. This has become a big issue with the B58 due to the fuel pump limitations we're finding especially on E85.
Not sure why you'd think the flash version doesn't do this. Those are the base parameters the DME uses day in and day out. If things are out of wack, it does throttle closures, and power cuts for equipment safety. Got a PM from a guy on the forum running into this exact issue with California fuel on BM3.

Considering the JB4 can run without the OBDII connector, are you 100% sure they use all this logic? On a non-WMI vehicle they are just scaling TMAP pressures back based on RPM to force the DME to raise boost pressures past the actual targets for more fuel.

JB4 does rock for logging though. But you can do that with BM3 if you desire as well.
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      05-23-2019, 11:03 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wires View Post
Not sure why you'd think the flash version doesn't do this. Those are the base parameters the DME uses day in and day out. If things are out of wack, it does throttle closures, and power cuts for equipment safety. Got a PM from a guy on the forum running into this exact issue with California fuel on BM3.

Considering the JB4 can run without the OBDII connector, are you 100% sure they use all this logic? On a non-WMI vehicle they are just scaling TMAP pressures back based on RPM to force the DME to raise boost pressures past the actual targets for more fuel.

JB4 does rock for logging though. But you can do that with BM3 if you desire as well.
I've seen first hand my flash only B58 run 18:1 AFR during poorly tuned runs, it never went to limp mode. I've seen boost shoot up to 30psi and it while it did try to close the throttle to compensate manifold boost was still 25psi+ and it took almost a full run before any codes or indications appeared. I've seen fuel pressure get so low the vehicle literally misfired itself and melted a plug before it ever went to limp mode.

Flash only safety systems exist but they are just really limited compared to what you can do with the addition of an external system.

For the JB4 safety systems to work it requires OBDII access. The non-OBDII option is just like a Stage1 tune for mild customers.
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      05-23-2019, 08:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dotfiles View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid67 View Post
This guy gets it.

I thought the reason people combine JB4 with flashes is so that the boost is always on target (on top of being used for WMI). Only thing I'm doing with my car is spirited street and backroad driving with the occasional race nights. I just want to make sure I am getting the most power out of the stock turbo. Don't plan on upgrading turbos anytime soon. I figured the Turbo Smart E2 boost controller or something similar would be a much cheaper option than a JB4.
If you want something cheaper than a JB4 that will just trick the car into making more boost, get a JB+.

However, I would recommend going with a flash tune. Many people have moved away from the piggybacks now that there are many flash tuning options for the B58 because they are more consistent, keep your transmission shifting as smooth as stock, and prevent throttle closures; all of which are problems you may see with piggybacks. Plus they make more power
As far as I know, MHD back end flash + JB4 has the lead on making the most power with just E40 and a intake. I haven't seen a flash produce almost 470whp with a stock down-pipe. It's a very underrated setup as we all know MHD + JB4 still holds the record for the fastest N54's. Piggybacks like JB4 aren't junk because of throttle closures and such that's due to the stock DME limitations and I can reassure you that no longer exists with my current setup and it never has even prior to flashing with the BEF. If you really think about it.... JB4 is pretty damn good for being able to control boost, boost by gear, custom boost target map, valet mode, fuel pressure crash safety map, meth fail safe, and meth control. What more can you ask for paying $500 or around $300 for a used one?

Currently running the MHD BEF + JB4, E40, catless DP, BMS intake, and 100% meth injection and I'm almost certain it's at 500whp with only 19-20 psi. I did not dyno the car because I'm installing a Pure stage 1 this weekend and I'll be making a DIY video for those that plan on doing it later on
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      05-24-2019, 04:15 PM   #17
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Piggybacks are out and flash is in. Get with the times.
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      05-24-2019, 10:57 PM   #18
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Piggybacks are out and flash is in. Get with the times.
MHD BEF is a flash were just in time...
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      05-25-2019, 09:26 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuel-It! View Post
I've seen first hand my flash only B58 run 18:1 AFR during poorly tuned runs, it never went to limp mode. I've seen boost shoot up to 30psi and it while it did try to close the throttle to compensate manifold boost was still 25psi+ and it took almost a full run before any codes or indications appeared. I've seen fuel pressure get so low the vehicle literally misfired itself and melted a plug before it ever went to limp mode.

Flash only safety systems exist but they are just really limited compared to what you can do with the addition of an external system.

For the JB4 safety systems to work it requires OBDII access. The non-OBDII option is just like a Stage1 tune for mild customers.
So what you are saying is never doing a flash tune since it blows up your motor, and only do JB4.

How would putting a JB4 on with a flash tune that you're identifying as seriously flawed supposed to be better? The flash is still doing all the fuel metering regardless of the JB4 being installed.

I'm done here... the circular insanity of your logic is hurting my brain.
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      05-25-2019, 10:53 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wires View Post
So what you are saying is never doing a flash tune since it blows up your motor, and only do JB4.

How would putting a JB4 on with a flash tune that you're identifying as seriously flawed supposed to be better? The flash is still doing all the fuel metering regardless of the JB4 being installed.

I'm done here... the circular insanity of your logic is hurting my brain.
Huh?

The JB4 provides an extra level of safety and tuning ability beyond what you can do flash only. You can certainly tune without a JB4 but it's just a very useful tool to have around. In the example above if there are issues that crop up the JB4 is there to spot them before you can behind the wheel and drop you to a low boost VALET map before you damage your engine.
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      05-29-2019, 09:00 PM   #21
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I think there is some confusion on what the JB4 can actually do. Under normal operation, it scales back the readings from the TMAP and MAP to spoof the DME into hitting higher boost levels to hit the torque targets.

The OBDII connection allows it to sniff the CAN bus messages and then it can manipulate the TMAP and MAP readings going to the DME for special functions (power limit by gear, valet, cold engine boost retard, etc). The DME (aka the flash) is still handling all the safety for the engine. It cannot change messages on the CAN bus.

So when you talk "safety", it's basically all DME (aka flash). The JB4 does hook inline with the fuel pressure sensor to do that same pressure manipulation like the MAP/TMAP.

It can take those CAN messages and give you read only logging, which it is one of the best tools for doing this.
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      05-30-2019, 11:21 AM   #22
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The extra safety comes from it being able to monitor your tuning in real time and follow various logic paths that are not configured in flash only tuning.

I can't tell you how many flash customers I've had report breaking stuff while doing logs to send back to their remote tuner especially with new builds. Then you look at the log after the break down and you wonder how the car was even running like that yet people do 2-3 full throttle runs of Russian Roulette on it. With the JB4 in there you have a tuner monitoring your vitals full time every time and aborting a run if they get really ugly. Not to mention all the other various benefits.
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