[martinf79]

Originally Posted by bananachipz

Dude... CLEARLY the panties comment was tongue in cheek... no offense, but grow a pair...

perhaps if you don't like peoples comments on your decision you shouldn't post about it? Just a thought really.. Nobody here is getting defensive but you dude....

My GOD ... grow up!

[bananachipz]

Originally Posted by martinf79

My GOD ... grow up!

makes no sense.. but sure...

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by bananachipz

Dude.. that's not a good idea... 19" 255's for winter will be bat-shit retarded.. I get the aesthetic appeal, but trust me.. go 225 square...

Might I add how "WRONG" the "opnion" you've shared actually is ("retarded".. really?). If you actually don't know what you're talking about, perhaps you should be the one to play on the safe side and keep your opinions (as well as your extensive vocabulary) to yourself.

[BavarianFanatic]

Originally Posted by martinf79

Alrighty then ...

And I agree with you ... and never claimed my view was "fact"... simply that the differences in options were not as drastic as everyone was making them out to be and that there ARE alternatives to the square x 225 setup. Choice is important.

I think its important that we highlight this all started because one person indicated that it would be "suicide" to go w/ 255s in the rear ... this is NOT the case. Are 225s "better" (and I leave "better" as a subjective view - i.e how much "better" it is). I stand by my earlier claim that the primary reason that sways people to 225s x square is cost + life of tire + "marginally" better winter performance.

Alrighty then...

Wow. You really seem to be a fan of making rash generalizations whilst minimizing the importance of the reasoning others have used in making their decisions. Even though it's in quotes, "marginal" would indicate that you have some solid facts indicating that the difference is indeed marginal. If you don't have quantitative data, don't make such generalizations please. Anyone can support their own case by downplaying the importance of the issues presented by the opposition.

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

Alrighty then...

Wow. You really seem to be a fan of making rash generalizations whilst minimizing the importance of the reasoning others have used in making their decisions. Even though it's in quotes, "marginal" would indicate that you have some solid facts indicating that the difference is indeed marginal. If you don't have quantitative data, don't make such generalizations please. Anyone can support their own case by downplaying the importance of the issues presented by the opposition.

Dude ... why do you guys insist on having this argument go on??? lol

It is actually quite commical. I sit here cometemplating on whether to just not respond and not entertain arguing w the two of you ... but the ignorance/lack of respect you and others seem to have on here actually offends me...

Here's my final stance. Let it go. Last time I checked... you failed to provide any "data" to support your claims in your long ass winded response, so rather than attacking me for not doing so accomplishes nothing (and it is kinda ironic - way to paint the kettle black my friend). I'm not sure how I've become the "hated" guy on here simply for trying to give others on here perspective. I never once insulted, attacked, or otherwise disrespected anyone....

Check my posts ... every claim, comment or insight I have had and shared on here has come from somewhere FACTUAL (credible sources).

There are a lot of great folks on here ... but I'm afraid I wouldn't include either of you in that group. Just really disrespectful on multiple fronts. You can keep your responses coming ... I'm checking out...

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

OK - I read this yesterday and withheld comment, but now I feel compelled to chime in and correct some inaccuracies. For starters, braking isn't the only concern. You must first be able to get enough power down to actually get the car moving. You next must make sure you maintain sufficient traction to keep the car on it's course. The argument of narrow vs. wide is relevant with respect to the downward force on the driving surface.

Physics tells us that a large contact surface will distribute a given load better than a small contact surface. In this case, a larger/wider tire will "float" on the surface more so than its narrow cousin. The simplest of analogies I can offer is that of snow shoes. They're ridiculously large for a reason, and it's not aesthetics. But does this really matter with tires? Yes it does.

Snow and ice themselves are not slick or slippery. It's the thin film of water that results from compacting the snow while walking/driving on it. If temps get low enough, this can even be reduced. Narrow tires, which are exerting a greater force/area will do a better job at "grabbing" the underlying snow/ice than a wider tire. This can't be argued.

Now, as all with attest, everyone has had different personal experiences. There may be nuances between different regions that have huge differences in conditions. An area that gets very cold will generally be easier to traverse than a region that experiences lots of freezing rain and/or snow with temperatures hovering near freezing.

Finally, be very careful marginalizing specifics that you think may be trivial. The arguments of "it's only 3 cm" and "it's only an inch" can have far greater impacts than you might imagine. As stated the contact patch with the road surface is relatively small. The impact 3mm of width along with a 1" shorter sidewall would have on the total surface area of that contact patch would probably surprise you.

Running ANY size winter tires will be leaps and bounds better than the stock summer tires. The rubber compounds in summer tires turn to stone at low temps. They're like built-in ice! If the roads most frequently traveled will be treated and/or have relatively low accumulations of snow and ice, then there should be no worries. If it's expected there will be much greater accumulations to deal with, then the narrower the better. Of course the most significant limitation will be ground clearance which NO tire will be able to overcome.

All of that said, I may actually be doing the staggered set-up myself. I've found a really decent/cheap set of wheels that I like, but of course they're staggered. Since I'm only getting the snows as a bit of insurance (I'll use my truck for real snow), I figure they'll suffice. The key is knowing your own car and your own limits. It's very easy to get in over your head on slick roads. I'm reminded of this every winter as I pass all of the new BMWs facing the wrong way on the shoulder or on their roofs in the median...on SUMMER tires.

Cheers!

I dunno ... doesn't appear as though you've shared any "data" to support any of this ... sounds kinda fishy ... sounds made up! lol

Example of BavarianFanatic painting the kettle black.

[bananachipz]

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

Alrighty then...

Wow. You really seem to be a fan of making rash generalizations whilst minimizing the importance of the reasoning others have used in making their decisions. Even though it's in quotes, "marginal" would indicate that you have some solid facts indicating that the difference is indeed marginal. If you don't have quantitative data, don't make such generalizations please. Anyone can support their own case by downplaying the importance of the issues presented by the opposition.

+1...

Dude, you could be the head scientist of Pirelli, and Martinf79 would tell you that you're wrong. All he wanted was reassurance if his choices.

So here goes: Martinf79, 255's are awesome in the winter. Nothing grips better. In fact, I'd go 275 as the aesthetic is way better. Feel better now? Queue the "grow up" response in 3...2...1

[bananachipz]

Check my posts ... every claim, comment or insight I have had and shared on here has come from somewhere FACTUAL (credible sources).

Umm..weren't your arguments
1. A dude at a tire shop told you it was fine
2. Audi uses 245's so there isn't much of a difference to 255?

Just sayin'

[martinf79]

Zzz.... Dude ... All I have to say is... You MUST be single. You have way too much time on your hands + you are one of the most hard headed + irrational individuals I've ever corresponded with.... I feel like I've wasted a full day of my life talking to you.

"just sayin"

[ocso1606]

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

OK - I read this yesterday and withheld comment, but now I feel compelled to chime in and correct some inaccuracies. For starters, braking isn't the only concern. You must first be able to get enough power down to actually get the car moving. You next must make sure you maintain sufficient traction to keep the car on it's course. The argument of narrow vs. wide is relevant with respect to the downward force on the driving surface.

Physics tells us that a large contact surface will distribute a given load better than a small contact surface. In this case, a larger/wider tire will "float" on the surface more so than its narrow cousin. The simplest of analogies I can offer is that of snow shoes. They're ridiculously large for a reason, and it's not aesthetics. But does this really matter with tires? Yes it does.

Snow and ice themselves are not slick or slippery. It's the thin film of water that results from compacting the snow while walking/driving on it. If temps get low enough, this can even be reduced. Narrow tires, which are exerting a greater force/area will do a better job at "grabbing" the underlying snow/ice than a wider tire. This can't be argued.

Now, as all with attest, everyone has had different personal experiences. There may be nuances between different regions that have huge differences in conditions. An area that gets very cold will generally be easier to traverse than a region that experiences lots of freezing rain and/or snow with temperatures hovering near freezing.

Finally, be very careful marginalizing specifics that you think may be trivial. The arguments of "it's only 3 cm" and "it's only an inch" can have far greater impacts than you might imagine. As stated the contact patch with the road surface is relatively small. The impact 3mm of width along with a 1" shorter sidewall would have on the total surface area of that contact patch would probably surprise you.

Running ANY size winter tires will be leaps and bounds better than the stock summer tires. The rubber compounds in summer tires turn to stone at low temps. They're like built-in ice! If the roads most frequently traveled will be treated and/or have relatively low accumulations of snow and ice, then there should be no worries. If it's expected there will be much greater accumulations to deal with, then the narrower the better. Of course the most significant limitation will be ground clearance which NO tire will be able to overcome.

All of that said, I may actually be doing the staggered set-up myself. I've found a really decent/cheap set of wheels that I like, but of course they're staggered. Since I'm only getting the snows as a bit of insurance (I'll use my truck for real snow), I figure they'll suffice. The key is knowing your own car and your own limits. It's very easy to get in over your head on slick roads. I'm reminded of this every winter as I pass all of the new BMWs facing the wrong way on the shoulder or on their roofs in the median...on SUMMER tires.

Cheers!

Engineer too huh? thanks for explaining the physics (would've taken a week to type on my phone)

[ocso1606]

Originally Posted by martinf79

Zzz.... Dude ... All I have to say is... You MUST be single. You have way too much time on your hands + you are one of the most hard headed + irrational individuals I've ever corresponded with.... I feel like I've wasted a full day of my life talking to you.

"just sayin"

I believe you answered my question (winter tire size) and provided your reasons dozens of posts ago. Thanks. Also the added "drama" has made this an extremely entertaining thread!

[ocso1606]

Originally Posted by rado

I'm going with Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3's, 225/45-18. In my experience they're a good all around winter tire well suited for New England conditions. Not equal to Blizzaks for pure snow traction, but better on dry pavement (all tires are a compromise). They also aren't run flats, but I can only recall two occasions of getting a flat tire while on the road during my almost 40 years of driving (maybe two other times a tire went flat while the car was parked). YLMV. I'll keep a 12v mini air compressor and my AAA card handy just in case.

BTW, I ordered the set a week ago Thursday from Tire Rack and received them *the next day* mounted, balanced, with TPMS sensors installed (moda MD11 18x8 ET32 wheels). Amazing service, Tire Rack rocks. It does pay to get snow tires before the season starts, supplies run much shorter in early winter.

Glad to hear you're pleased with tire rack - some on this forum aren't fans (OEM wheels only). We live in Syracuse so performance in the snow is a high priority (more-so than ride).
We are also considering non-RF (if I can convince my better half to go with the fix-a-flat/compressor route), mainly due to the lack of RF choices.
335iM is in production now , so will be placing snow-tire order very soon.

[bananachipz]

Originally Posted by martinf79

Zzz.... Dude ... All I have to say is... You MUST be single. You have way too much time on your hands + you are one of the most hard headed + irrational individuals I've ever corresponded with.... I feel like I've wasted a full day of my life talking to you.

"just sayin"

Glad I can be of service. I don't have a lot of time, as my day job is working with special needs children. Responding to your posts just felt like any other day.

Btw, I thought you were "done" responding. Anyway it's kinda fun to see how many times we can pull a Godfather on you and "Pull you back in!"

[BavarianFanatic]

Originally Posted by martinf79

I dunno ... doesn't appear as though you've shared any "data" to support any of this ... sounds kinda fishy ... sounds made up! lol

Example of BavarianFanatic painting the kettle black.

Uh oh. You got me. I'm just full of crap. I made it all up.

"The empty vessel makes the loudest sound." - William Shakespeare

[Balzz]

Originally Posted by bananachipz

Umm..weren't your arguments
1. A dude at a tire shop told you it was fine

They were PRO guyS at a FEW shops. Pretty much a "peer reviewed paper".

PRO.

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by bananachipz

Glad I can be of service. I don't have a lot of time, as my day job is working with special needs children. Responding to your posts just felt like any other day.

Btw, I thought you were "done" responding. Anyway it's kinda fun to see how many times we can pull a Godfather on you and "Pull you back in!"

Sorry ... Did you say you work with special needs children? It's great that they let you in... Kinda makes tham all feel normal when you're around I guess ... And they let you use a computer. Good for you!

(FYI .... I can keep going.... So I'm more than happy to keep throwing punches)

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by Balzz

They were PRO guyS at a FEW shops. Pretty much a "peer reviewed paper".

PRO.

When you need medical advice.... Do use ask a bunch of random people on a forum... Or do you leverage insight from people who deal with medical issues every day - I.e. a doctor. When you buy tires.... Should I ask a bunch of random dudes with absolutely no insight or expertise in the field, or do you go to guys that deal with tire shiat everyday?

Do I trust the engineers of one of the most premium luxury brands when they recommend 245 tires for audi's.... Or some random dude who is an engineer by trade, but likely not an engineer in the auto industry (who by the way stated at one point was going with the same staggered setup I was suggesting)? Also note - whom none of you attacked for stating so.

Do I leverage my own personal experience driving powerful rear wheel cars during Toronto winters.... Or some random dudes with questionable experiences and potentially different geographic locations?

I am a rational, well educated and well informed individual. All I did was provide an alternative view.

I am also actually now finding this entertaining.... And welcome the ongoing banter. Note that I am typing this on my iPad while taking a number 2. Helps me pass the time. I will allocate all future bowel movements to responding to your very well thought out responses and attacks. It actually gives me something to do while I sit here. Lol

[bananachipz]

I love this..

Repeat after me.. 245's are not 255's...

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by bananachipz

I love this..

Repeat after me.. 245's are not 255's...

You do realize that 245 vs. 255 = 10mm difference in width. Just asking, because I'm beginning to seriously (seriously, not even trying to make a joke here) question whether you have any clue to what we're talking about here. 10mm = 1 cm. You realize that... right? right?

That's a 4% overall increase in width. Let's just assume that performance is correlated to width as a percentage (not saying it is .. but lets pretend)... that would infer that my 255 setup would perform 4% less favourably in the winter than the audi's 245 setup.

You stated "255's for winter will be bat-shit retarded" which would suggest a very drastic decrease in winter driving performance ... which I would define as 50% less favourable than 225s

I stated the difference would be "marginal"... if we took this logic (and the above correlation), 255 vs. 225 would be 13% less favourable and only 4% less favourable than 245s. I actually wouldn't believe the difference would actually be that drastic of a correlation... but in any case ... even with a direct correlation of size to performance ... the difference would be "marginal", which is the only point I have been trying to make all along...

So... the point you're trying to make is.......????

[martinf79]

Just back from the tire shop....

Just figured the least I could do is share my results ...

Blizzacks LM-60s on 19s ... 225 F + 255R ....

3rd pic has the 225 along side the 255...

Unfortunately, no car yet... and still too warm to mount ... will have to wait until November...

[bananachipz]

Originally Posted by martinf79

You do realize that 245 vs. 255 = 10mm difference in width. Just asking, because I'm beginning to seriously (seriously, not even trying to make a joke here) question whether you have any clue to what we're talking about here. 10mm = 1 cm. You realize that... right? right?

Well, Maybe you missed the part in BavarianFanatic's post about contact patch sizes. Small difference in contact patch sizes can make a huge difference. This isn't crap we just made up dude (As you'd love to believe). 275's aren't far off from 255's... just go that way for aesthetics!!! heck.. go 305's... who's counting... they are all close right? It'll make no difference.

That's a 4% overall increase in width. Let's just assume that performance is correlated to width as a percentage (not saying it is .. but lets pretend)... that would infer that my 255 setup would perform 4% less favourably in the winter than the audi's 245 setup.

You claim you are highly-educated, but your logic is that of my 4-year-old son's. You can make stuff up all you want, but it's not going to make it true. Like I said before why not go all out and go 275? I bet everyone is going to LOVE the look of your car in winter with those.

You stated "255's for winter will be bat-shit retarded" which would suggest a very drastic decrease in winter driving performance ... which I would define as 50% less favourable than 225s

Your rear must be sore from all these numbers you are pulling out of it.

stated the difference would be "marginal"... if we took this logic (and the above correlation), 255 vs. 225 would be 13% less favourable and only 4% less favourable than 245s. I actually wouldn't believe the difference would actually be that drastic of a correlation... but in any case ... even with a direct correlation of size to performance ... the difference would be "marginal", which is the only point I have been trying to make all along...

Again, IT DOESN"T WORK THAT WAY. Grip is about thresholds... you have it, until you don't. So unless you're calculating your g-forces around every corner, the depth of the snow, your tread-wear, you speed, etc, these "percentage" you make up do not make sense.

Especially with snow & ice, where friction doesn't necessarily depend on surface area - it has a lot do to with the tires ability to "bite" or create ridges in the snow to get the traction. A skinnier tire has more weight to surface area, so the chances of doing this (and displacing water/snow at the same time) are greater. 225's will do this greater than 255's. The exact amount would take a PhD in physics to figure out due to the many factors. Not some dude who thinks he can apply grade 2 math. Rally car racers use 185's for a reason.

So... the point you're trying to make is.......????

I think overall nobody here will be able to tell you whether you'll be fine on 255's for winter. You may be.. You may end up in a ditch... I think most will agree that sacrificing winter performance for aesthetics is pretty bush-league, especially when nobody in winter will care whether you're running 225 or 255. Good luck this winter... I hope you get a lot of compliments on your 255's when your car is covered in road salt...

[bananachipz]

Gotta admit... the Rims look nice.

Originally Posted by martinf79

Just back from the tire shop....

Just figured the least I could do is share my results ...

Blizzacks LM-60s on 19s ... 225 F + 255R ....

3rd pic has the 225 along side the 255...

Unfortunately, no car yet... and still too warm to mount ... will have to wait until November...