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      05-24-2017, 04:23 AM   #1
MashinBenzin
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Fighting terrorism

Rather than replying in the Manchester thread, I thought I would start a new one for the debate. There was pretty wide agreement that that thread was not the right place yesterday; if that's changed then my thread can be safely ignored.

Some people are advocating punishing the bomber's family, taking Nobby's comment as a starting point...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobby Clark View Post
What they should do is take all known members of the bombers family and make them answer for his crime.
I'm guessing you see this as a deterrent rather than a punishment, i.e. less likely to commit the crime if your family would be endangered.

However, I think that's flawed logic to apply to the mind of a potential bomber who is, let's face it, deranged by what most would consider reasonable standards. You are also then into punishing innocent people, which is only going to create more ill-feeling and further grow the breeding ground for extremism.

Also, would this policy apply to all crimes? E.g. drink driver involved in a multiple fatal accident and dies too. Or someone shoots a few people before turning the gun on himself. Should we be locking up their wives and children?

My view...the cat is out of the bag thanks to social media. That has given the current generation of nutcases (let's face it, they've always been there) the means to spread their thinking and influence the weak minded. The aim needs to be to put that cat back in the bag. That's not going to be easy...

Also, as I keep saying, stop appeasing the states that sponsor this crap and start (at a leadership level) talking about what is really going on.
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      05-24-2017, 07:00 AM   #2
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I'd definitely say punishing family wouldn't do much. Maybe stop some but we have to remember these people are nutcases so most probably wouldn't care? Plus what would the family do? Fair enough if they knew and said nothing as I'd see that as working alongside them to an extent, but if they were innocent and knew nothing, punishing them would do nothing. Imagine if your siblings/parents/relatives did something horrific. What would they achieve by taking you in?

I don't know why they're targeting 'the West' but there must be a reason? They can't be doing it for fun? Are we (the UK, Europe, US) invading their home countries and killing innocent women/children and they're retaliating, or are they genuinely messed up in the head and doing it 'just because'?

I personally don't know too much about what goes on in places like Syria/Palestine or similar but I do come across the odd bit of news regarding innocent kids being bombed/killed. Is this what they're mad at and getting us back for?

Whatever it is those that are higher up need to do something because I'm honestly starting to feel wary/slightly paranoid when out and about in heavily populated areas.

Can't imagine what those who've lost someone in Manchester must be feeling. RIP to those that have lost their lives.
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      05-24-2017, 07:29 AM   #3
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I simply suggest stop all migration from those area with islamic background especially military age males as they are refugee they should be resolving there local conflict. With the population you currently have see who is assimilating and who hasn't easily by if they learn some of the Dialect, are working, and not depended on welfare if not ship them back to Turkey to sort the mess.
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      05-24-2017, 07:37 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaghave View Post
I simply suggest stop all migration from those area with islamic background especially military age males as they are refugee they should be resolving there local conflict. With the population you currently have see who is assimilating and who hasn't easily by if they learn some of the Dialect, are working, and not depended on welfare if not ship them back to Turkey to sort the mess.
I dare say that someone born and schooled in the U.K. may have appeared to have assimilated pretty well and may even be up to speed with the dialect!
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      05-24-2017, 07:53 AM   #5
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I'm no expert, but historically terrorist groups seemed to justify their actions as protest or retaliation for western interventions on foreign soil.

But the current strain of terrorism seems to care about this only in a secondary way. Fundamentally, they view us as decadent, and that humans must either convert or forfeit their right to live. This is a big difference even between Al Quaida and ISIS.

On that basis, trying to negotiate or guess at putative 'root causes' sadly seems pointless. Cure looks a better bet than prevention for the time being.

One concrete thing I would do is to listen to the security services when they say they need more money and resources. Apparently there are around 500 'individuals of interest' they'd like to track on a 24/7 basis, but they can only manage a fraction of that. Why not give them what they need?

Secondly, we don't seem to have a handle on how radicalisation happens in this country. Radical preachers and mosques make good copy, but logically most of this must be happening in a covert way. Targets are clearly angry, impressionable young men. What's the strategy for dealing with that?
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      05-24-2017, 08:24 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MashinBenzin View Post
Rather than replying in the Manchester thread, I thought I would start a new one for the debate. There was pretty wide agreement that that thread was not the right place yesterday; if that's changed then this can be safely ignored.

Some people are advocating punishing the bomber's family, taking Nobby's comment as a starting point...

I'm guessing you see this as a deterrent rather than a punishment, i.e. less likely to commit the crime if your family would be endangered.

However, I think that's flawed logic to apply to the mind of a potential bomber who is, let's face it, deranged by what most would consider reasonable standards. You are also then into punishing innocent people, which is only going to create more ill-feeling and further grow the breeding ground for extremism.

Also, would this policy apply to all crimes? E.g. drink driver involved in a multiple fatal accident and dies too. Or someone shoots a few people before turning the gun on himself. Should we be locking up their wives and children?

My view...the cat is out of the bag thanks to social media. That has given the current generation of nutcases (let's face it, they've always been there) the means to spread their thinking and influence the weak minded. The aim needs to be to put that cat back in the bag. That's not going to be easy...

Also, as I keep saying, stop appeasing the states that sponsor this crap and start (at a leadership level) talking about what is really going on.

The point I was trying to make was someone knew what he was up to. Someone knew where he was going on an evening, who he was mixing with etc. The security forces certainly knew so it can't have been a big secret to those around him. Had they spoken out, he could have been stopped. Even if he was surrounded by the most secretive hardened supporters, someone on the edges must have known.

You are right I would say it's more deterrent than punishment, but I also think in this case, guilty by association is a reasonable view given what I have said.


As for other crimes, these are not under discussion so let's stay on topic.
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      05-24-2017, 08:25 AM   #7
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      05-24-2017, 08:26 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MashinBenzin View Post
I dare say that someone born and schooled in the U.K. may have appeared to have assimilated pretty well and may even be up to speed with the dialect!
Didn't say it was grantees but it will surely minimize it better then wide spread spying of all citizen which currently occurs
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      05-24-2017, 08:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcoops View Post
One concrete thing I would do is to listen to the security services when they say they need more money and resources. Apparently there are around 500 'individuals of interest' they'd like to track on a 24/7 basis, but they can only manage a fraction of that. Why not give them what they need?

Secondly, we don't seem to have a handle on how radicalisation happens in this country. Radical preachers and mosques make good copy, but logically most of this must be happening in a covert way. Targets are clearly angry, impressionable young men. What's the strategy for dealing with that?
Completely agree on the vital importance of both.

Re. the second point, on the BBC today - "Mrs Rudd also said there would be an "uplift" in Prevent, the government's anti-radicalisation programme, after June. This had already been planned before Monday's attack, she added."

Hopefully, "Prevent" has a handle on the social media aspect of radicalisation.
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      05-24-2017, 08:49 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaghave View Post
Didn't say it was grantees but it will surely minimize it better then wide spread spying of all citizen which currently occurs
Is that another one of your 'alternative facts', or do you have some sort of proof that we are all under 'widespread spying' ?

Bear in mind that the person responsible for this was born in Manchester in 1994. His parents fled from Libya (ruled by Gaddafi), so his father would have been of military age back then. Maybe you'd prefer it if they'd been rounded up and shot by Gaddafi's secret police, like so many others.

It's somewhat amusing, really. You live in a country built by immigrants, who exterminated the natives. Yet you despise immigrants.
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      05-24-2017, 09:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MashinBenzin View Post
Hopefully, "Prevent" has a handle on the social media aspect of radicalisation.
Prevent seems to get a mixed press. As a result of all this debate I started to wonder what the muslim PoV was on what could and should be done. I had a look at a recent keynote speech by the president of the muslim council of Britain. On the one hand, unsurprisingly, they are not big fans of Prevent, arguing that it makes several false assumptions, like mosques being a big factor in radicalisation, and that radicalism is some sort of logical progression from being merely devout.

On the other hand, they were very supportive of a big boost to intelligence-led policing.
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      05-24-2017, 09:12 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by robbiep View Post
It's somewhat amusing, really. You live in a country built by immigrants, who exterminated the natives. Yet you despise immigrants.
I always find this a bit of a head-scratcher. Then again, I work with a guy (non-European) who got a British passport only a year ago, but voted in favour of Brexit on immigration grounds. I'm in...pull up the drawbridge...!
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      05-24-2017, 09:21 AM   #13
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If a child continually fails to attend school the parents are Answerable for this

These Terrorists are not children how can you possibly make the Family/Parents/Friends Answer for the Crime
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      05-24-2017, 09:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddieo View Post
If a child continually fails to attend school the parents are Answerable for this

These Terrorists are not children how can you possibly make the Family/Parents/Friends Answer for the Crime
Agree

An individual takes responsibility for his or her own actions, you can't take retribution on family based on what he or she does unless there's proof that they're also complicit. This seems akin to a dictatorship rather than a democracy and whilst it undeniably has its faults I'd rather live in a democracy.

In any case where would you house all these potentially innocent people that we're locking up and how long must they atone for the act of their family members crime? Do you also lock up his mates if so how do you define them?

I don't know what the answer is I'm afraid but in my view this isn't it.
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      05-24-2017, 10:19 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich100 View Post
Agree

An individual takes responsibility for his or her own actions, you can't take retribution on family based on what he or she does unless there's proof that they're also complicit. This seems akin to a dictatorship rather than a democracy and whilst it undeniably has its faults I'd rather live in a democracy.

In any case where would you house all these potentially innocent people that we're locking up and how long must they atone for the act of their family members crime? Do you also lock up his mates if so how do you define them?

I don't know what the answer is I'm afraid but in my view this isn't it.
An individual doesn't always take responsibility for their own actions. Indeed, it's already reported he wasn't acting alone, his brother has been arrested and someone else made the bomb. If they are mad as previously suggested then there is diminished responsibility. Same as if they were a minor. I also not suggesting mob justice. Which is why I said associates, whether it be family or friends, should be brought to answer - by a court or questioned to weed out others in the terrorist ring. Someone who knew this guy, knew what he was doing / getting involved in. IMHO they are equally responsible for his actions.

Last edited by Nobby Clark; 05-24-2017 at 10:52 AM.
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      05-24-2017, 10:56 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobby Clark View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich100 View Post
Agree

An individual takes responsibility for his or her own actions, you can't take retribution on family based on what he or she does unless there's proof that they're also complicit. This seems akin to a dictatorship rather than a democracy and whilst it undeniably has its faults I'd rather live in a democracy.

In any case where would you house all these potentially innocent people that we're locking up and how long must they atone for the act of their family members crime? Do you also lock up his mates if so how do you define them?

I don't know what the answer is I'm afraid but in my view this isn't it.
An individual doesn't always take responsibility for their own actions. Indeed, it's already reported he wasn't acting alone, his brother has been arrested and someone else made the bomb. If they are mad as previously suggested then there is diminished responsibility. Same as if they were a minor. I also not suggesting mob justice. Which is why I said associates, whether it be family or friends, should be brought to answer - by a court or questioned to weed out others in the terrorist ring. Someone who knew this guy, knew what he was doing / getting involved in. IMHO they are equally responsible for his actions.
If it can be shown that family friends had any knowledge of this then I agree and think they should be dealt with as well.

I may have misunderstood you're earlier post apologies if so.
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      05-24-2017, 10:58 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbiep View Post
Is that another one of your 'alternative facts', or do you have some sort of proof that we are all under 'widespread spying' ?

Bear in mind that the person responsible for this was born in Manchester in 1994. His parents fled from Libya (ruled by Gaddafi), so his father would have been of military age back then. Maybe you'd prefer it if they'd been rounded up and shot by Gaddafi's secret police, like so many others.

It's somewhat amusing, really. You live in a country built by immigrants, who exterminated the natives. Yet you despise immigrants.
I guess you are completely oblivious wikileaks has expose several times the mass surveillance and it has been reported from multi news source

So I guess his father was worth more then the 20+ kids murder by his unassimulated radical child that his parents most likely where partly responsible for.

Once again your revisionist history is truly amazing.
A. Majority of native population died due to disease so I guess we should blame the Mongols for black death in Europe
B. The next biggest killed of native was native
C.the European didn't get free shelter, food, and pay when the migrated to america
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      05-24-2017, 11:08 AM   #18
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This particular terrorist was apparently a bit of an inadequate that was made to carry the bomb.
I think we should go after the network that supplied the bomb and trained\ radicalised him.
Similar to what the Israeli's did after the Munich Olympic's​. Use Special forces and intelligences agency to hunt every last one of them down where ever they are in the world and eliminate them.
Send a clear message.
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      05-24-2017, 11:22 AM   #19
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The worrying part is that there could be someone who has slipped under the Radar
Someone with the know how to make more bombs like this
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      05-24-2017, 11:22 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeoz View Post
This particular terrorist was apparently a bit of an inadequate that was made to carry the bomb.
I think we should go after the network that supplied the bomb and trained\ radicalised him.
Similar to what the Israeli's did after the Munich Olympic's​. Use Special forces and intelligences agency to hunt every last one of them down where ever they are in the world and eliminate them.
Send a clear message.
Agree but you'll be shock that it will lead to your local mosque, prisons, and islamic day schools.
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      05-24-2017, 11:41 AM   #21
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The only way to stop it is in conjunction with the communities these guys are living in. Reading some of the quotes from a local Imam who had seen the manchester bomber at his mosque and thought he might hold extremist vierws. This is where it needs to be flagged and reported but if the government is just going to round up people at the slightest hint as suggested by some on here, you'll never get the community onside to flag these guys early as a possible threat.
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      05-24-2017, 11:44 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaghave View Post
I guess you are completely oblivious wikileaks has expose several times the mass surveillance and it has been reported from multi news source

So I guess his father was worth more then the 20+ kids murder by his unassimulated radical child that his parents most likely where partly responsible for.

Once again your revisionist history is truly amazing.
A. Majority of native population died due to disease so I guess we should blame the Mongols for black death in Europe
B. The next biggest killed of native was native
C.the European didn't get free shelter, food, and pay when the migrated to america
Ahh, if exposed as a fraud, quote wikileaks, or say "It's all over the internet", rather than link to real, reliable, sourced articles.

As per your other 'answers' (which are basically deflections, pretending to make a point whilst avoiding the hard questions)

The black death is THOUGHT most likely to have come from central Asia. But no definitive proof. In fact, the black death brought about the renaissance in Europe, as the shortage of workers meant wages rose, people became wealthier. Unlike in North America, where the introduction of diseases was combined with turfing the natives off their best hunting grounds, leading to starvation and a higher mortality rate due to malnourishment.
'The next biggest killed (sic) of native was native', again, classic 'whataboutery'. Ignore this, look at that instead, even though it's tiny in comparison !

As to the europeans not getting free shelter and food when they came to the Americas, I suggest you research a little bit of your own history. On any number of recorded occasions, tribes supplied food to the settlers in winter to help prevent starvation. Jamestown in 1608, for example. What was their reward ? To be thrown off their land and exterminated a few years later.

Your ignorance is truly staggering. I can understand you being ignorant of the UK and Europe, and the Middle East. But your stupidity extends to your own country and it's history as well.

The saying "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing", seems appropriate for you. And you've certainly only got a little knowledge.
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