[Edinburra]

Originally Posted by Darth Helmut

Lordy lordy

Pull one off for me, please

[Edinburra]

Originally Posted by Darth Helmut

Amen to that. Fear not, the human race will cause its own extinction. Overpopulation for one thing. An ant colony maintains stability by considering the whole colony and not the individual. Does that make Ants cleverer than us?

Neither overpopulation or Climate change will kill off the human race. Stupidity will.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

So, now you think nature is a thing that can make decisions?

I fully understand natural selection and I am only thinking logically now, not emotionally, if something cannot be passed down and there is no fault with the resulting offspring, nature is not saying anything.

Natural selection is slowly reducing genetic problems that shorten life. Over time they are disappearing. You are just using that to apply one specific medical issue that isn't even genetic in most cases.

As I said before, I don't see why infertility should be singled out from other medical issues. Maybe there's no need to save the NHS, just close it down and let everyone die from minor ailments?!

[nordberg]

Originally Posted by JLR1969

If someone can't reproduce naturally it's natures way of saying don't reproduce.

Wow. Just wow.....

[Darth Helmut]

Originally Posted by Alex440

So, now you think nature is a thing that can make decisions?

I fully understand natural selection and I am only thinking logically now, not emotionally, if something cannot be passed down and there is no fault with the resulting offspring, nature is not saying anything.

Natural selection is slowly reducing genetic problems that shorten life. Over time they are disappearing. You are just using that to apply one specific medical issue that isn't even genetic in most cases.

As I said before, I don't see why infertility should be singled out from other medical issues. Maybe there's no need to save the NHS, just close it down and let everyone die from minor ailments?!

Natural selection is actually beyond the control of us mere humans. We think we control it but in reality, the way the human race is overpopulating and making a mess of the planet is in itself, natural selection

It may well be an individuals god given right to reproduce but the longer term and bigger consequences of every fucker popping sprogs out because medical science has allowed it, accelerates the problem. Selfishness in reality.

[1966-TR4]

Originally Posted by JLR1969

Nature lets the fittest survive and reproduce for a reason, it keeps the gene pool at its best.

You wouldn't breed an animal that had a known defect.

To circumvent this by using medicine is not ideal for the above reasons, when you add emotion and peoples wants then all of the above changes.

So you reckon that infertility is hereditary? That is a new kind of stupid. I expect your bloodline will come to a crashing Darwinian halt sooner rather than later.

[Mr Whippy]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Yes, that's what I said above. You need an egg donor and you need a surrogate. Both of which would have a right to confidentiality, and (for most people) and expectation to anonymity, hence why they wouldn't be identified in a newspaper article.

I am not sure a gay couple wanting to have a child of their own is any different to a heterosexual couple with fertility issues using a donor or surrogate.

Would Richard Littlejohn imply all those couples should adopt or foster, rather than use IVF? If not then it's very arguably homophobic.

That's fine but the headline nomenclature is a bit iffy.

It's not 'their own' child. It's someone else's child at this point.

The undermining of the role of women as mothers by talking as if they don't even exist is a bit weird and degrading.

[Darth Helmut]

Originally Posted by 1966-TR4

So you reckon that infertility is hereditary? That is a new kind of stupid. I expect your bloodline will come to a crashing Darwinian halt sooner rather than later.

I dont think he actually said that. If you cant reproduce, there is a reason why you cant reproduce.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Darth Helmut

Natural selection is actually beyond the control of us mere humans. We think we control it but in reality, the way the human race is overpopulating and making a mess of the planet is in itself, natural selection

It may well be an individuals god given right to reproduce but the longer term and bigger consequences of every fucker popping sprogs out because medical science has allowed it, accelerates the problem. Selfishness in reality.

I don't disagree, the human race is overpopulating it's way to oblivion.

But, I just don't see why infertility is different to anything else that keeps the population higher? Anyone that is saved from an illness that should really kill them is keeping the population higher than it should be.

Natural selection is not the same as over population, they are two different things.

Or they will be until everyone is fighting over food and water in the not so far future. Then I guess the richest and/or the strongest will survive.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by 1966-TR4

So you reckon that infertility is hereditary? That is a new kind of stupid. I expect your bloodline will come to a crashing Darwinian halt sooner rather than later.

Actually infertility often can be genetic ..so maybe read up a little and get your facts straight before getting your panties in a twist and insulting other forum members?

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Mr Whippy

That's fine but the headline nomenclature is a bit iffy.

It's not 'their own' child. It's someone else's child at this point.

The undermining of the role of women as mothers by talking as if they don't even exist is a bit weird and degrading.

Men all over the world deciding for women what is degrading for them.

Take darts and Forumal 1, men making that decision for the better of the opposite sex. Basically deciding on their behalf.

Isn't that all a bit degrading?

[Darth Helmut]

Originally Posted by Alex440

I don't disagree, the human race is overpopulating it's way to oblivion.

But, I just don't see why infertility is different to anything else that keeps the population higher? Anyone that is saved from an illness that should really kill you is keeping the population higher than it should be.

Natural selection is not the same as over population, they are two different things.

Or they will be until everyone is fighting over food and water in the not so far future. Then I guess the richest and/or the strongest will survive.

Natural selection prevents overpopulation. In the animal kingdom, the weak dont survive, the old and decrepit dont survive, the stupid dont survive. This actually ensures the species continues. Humans seem to think they can dodge this basic premise. More are born that wouldnt normally be born, more survive due to H&S and better medical care and people are living longer. Until we invent a sound method to colonise other planets, our 'cleverness' will ensure natural selection continues like it has for the past several million years and wont even register on the 'give-a-fuck-o-meter' when we doom ourselves to extinction.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Darth Helmut

Natural selection prevents overpopulation. In the animal kingdom, the weak dont survive, the old and decrepit dont survive, the stupid dont survive. Humans seem to think they can dodge this basic premise. More are born that wouldnt normally be born, more survive due to H&S and better medical care and people are living longer. Until we invent a sound method to colonise other planets, our 'cleverness' will ensure natural selection continues like it has for the past several million years and wont even register on the 'give-a-fuck-o-meter' when we doom ourselves to extinction.

But, fertility treatment still fits your argument nowhere. Or only equally as much as any other illness or disease that we choose to treat.

It certainly shouldn't be singled out as being any different. I'm pretty sure that the advances in cancer treatment, the invention of antibiotics, immunisations etc etc have all increased our population far more than fertility treatment ever will.

[Darth Helmut]

Originally Posted by Alex440

But, fertility treatment still fits your argument nowhere. Or only equally as much as any other illness or disease that we choose to treat.

It certainly shouldn't be singled out as being any different. I'm pretty sure that the advances in cancer treatment, the invention of antibiotics, immunisations etc etc have all increased our population far more than fertility treatment ever will.

Its not my argument, I'm just making an observation.

Nature, in my opinion, has a precise balance. If you try and bypass that, it will find another way of ensuring the balance is maintained. I'm all for treating every disease and ailment to help life, create life or prevent death but that is because I have been given a human brain with human emotions. In the grand scheme of things, the human emotion and the need to avoid death will actually cause it. We are after all, mammals who have simply been given slightly large thinking organs. Trouble is, its got us in the shit.
Aardvarks, Dolphins and Tree Sloths stick to the rules quite happily and because of that wont be the cause of fucking it up for the rest of the planet.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

No we will, most of those creatures will he gone before we self destruct.

You could argue fertility treatment is natural selection in practice, but the other way. Generally the strongest people in our world are the richest, therefore those that can afford it do. Probably at the expense somewhere of a child whose parents can't access medical treatment. It's still a form of natural selection.

[Darth Helmut]

Originally Posted by Alex440

No we will, most of those creatures will he gone before we self destruct.

You could argue fertility treatment is natural selection in practice, but the other way. Generally the strongest people in our world are the richest, therefore those that can afford it do. Probably at the expense somewhere of a child whose parents can't access medical treatment. It's still a form of natural selection.

Thats life....

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Darth Helmut

Natural selection prevents overpopulation. In the animal kingdom, the weak dont survive, the old and decrepit dont survive, the stupid dont survive. This actually ensures the species continues. Humans seem to think they can dodge this basic premise. More are born that wouldnt normally be born, more survive due to H&S and better medical care and people are living longer. Until we invent a sound method to colonise other planets, our 'cleverness' will ensure natural selection continues like it has for the past several million years and wont even register on the 'give-a-fuck-o-meter' when we doom ourselves to extinction.

you of course realise that puts humans completely on the flip side.

In human natural selection, we are keeping the old and decrepit alive, we are keeping those that do not contribute to the greater society.

In nature stupid animals do not survive, in human society stupid people breed constantly.

Fucking crazy bollox it is.

[JLR1969]

Originally Posted by 1966-TR4

So you reckon that infertility is hereditary? That is a new kind of stupid. I expect your bloodline will come to a crashing Darwinian halt sooner rather than later.

No need to get personal old timer.

[Darth Helmut]

Perspecitve

[Mr Whippy]

Originally Posted by Alex440

Men all over the world deciding for women what is degrading for them.

Take darts and Forumal 1, men making that decision for the better of the opposite sex. Basically deciding on their behalf.

Isn't that all a bit degrading?

They're all free to choose.

If it were my egg and body going to make a baby for a lesbian or gay couple, I'd be upset and feel degraded by that couple saying 'ours' while it was inside my body!

It's theirs when it's born and I give it to them.

That's the basis for my opinion.

More so, for couples who do struggle, you'd think they'd want to be sensitive to someone having a baby on your behalf and willingly giving up a precious baby?

I'm sure it's bloody hard to do!

If it's not then fair enough. But survival instinct goes against that so I struggle to believe it.

[Blacktemplar]

Originally Posted by juwivive

"Years" of liberalism? After how many centuries of oppression of anyone who's not white, male and straight? I suppose you think that "MeToo" is a bunch of militant lesbians?

It's rather pathetic that so many white straight males feel so threatened by those who don't take sexism, racism and homophobia lying down. Is your manhood feeling imperilled or something?

And what makes you think I’m white? Or straight. Or even male for that matter? And can you say with certainty I’ve never been on the receiving end of discrimination of any sort? Didn’t think so. Everyone seems to be angry and “offended” these days, quite often on behalf of people they don’t actually know. Why don’t you go and play “offended troll” somewhere else and let the adults debate...? Well, when I say “adults”....

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Mr Whippy

They're all free to choose.

If it were my egg and body going to make a baby for a lesbian or gay couple, I'd be upset and feel degraded by that couple saying 'ours' while it was inside my body!

It's theirs when it's born and I give it to them.

That's the basis for my opinion.

More so, for couples who do struggle, you'd think they'd want to be sensitive to someone having a baby on your behalf and willingly giving up a precious baby?

I'm sure it's bloody hard to do!

If it's not then fair enough. But survival instinct goes against that so I struggle to believe it.

Apologies, I didn't know you were a woman. I just thought you were making sweeping assumptions on how a woman would feel about this.

Who are free to choose? If you're talking about the women whose jobs have been removed in darts and F1, they haven't decided anything. Men have decided on their behalf. Ironic eh?

And, how on earth do you know how the surrogate for Tom Daley is being treated? She could know all about the article and be just at fine.